NYU v Duke

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NYU v Duke

NYU (280k)
10
19%
Duke (180k)
43
81%
 
Total votes: 53

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 4:01 pm

willwilliams1334 wrote:Oh god not this again. PLEASE don't take duke for that COA. NYU has the LRAP, placement, and reputation to get you where you want. NYU its not even close; that thread on paying back sticker has really been a boost to NYU, imo.


Normally I'm a big proponent of CCN, but what is your reasoning here? you say don't take $180K for Duke, but $280K for NYU is fine because of LRAP? You talk about "placement" and "reputation" as though they are exclusive to NYU, when that reputation and placement power are very NYC-centric and OP has more founded interest in DC/clerkship work.

NYU is an amazing school, but from testimonials I've seen most of its prestigious government and clerkship positions go to RTK/AnBryce/other named scholarship students who receive special attention and are swiftly filtered into HYS-tier positions by professors and administrators. the average NYU student doesn't have stronger AIII clerkship chances than a law student at Duke

NYstate
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Re: NYU v Dukein

Postby NYstate » Thu May 23, 2013 4:02 pm

[quote="thisisunexpected"][quote="sinfiery"]I wish we could get someone working nyc biglaw to chime in on how much it costs as a professional to live there.

More than 31% stay in biglaw for 5 years btw as I believe that 31% figure are people who stay at 1 firm for 5 years where more than 60% who leave, leave to other large firms. Also, the amount that are presumably wanted by the firm to exit is a very very low percentage. So being forced out really doesn't seem to be common, but does occur.[/quote]

I work at a law firm now that generally hires its associates out of biglaw and pays (I'm told by them) basically the same salary. I can tell you from having spoken to many of those associates and having lived in the city as a professional myself for some years now that you can be reasonably comfortable on anything more than 40-50k/year take-home assuming you're not supporting anyone but yourself and aren't dead-set on living like a rock star. So yeah, it is absolutely possible to pay off this sort of debt in 5 years while still living fairly well, assuming that you get the right job to begin with (which is obviously not a given). My dilemma is more whether or not I want to be forced into definitely doing biglaw for 5 years, and which school makes more sense if I'm not at all certain about the biglaw v PI decision and could still end up being swayed in either direction.[/quote]

I don't have debt so I can't help you. I wouldn't want to live here on $40,000 when my income is 4 times that. I don't know anyone who lives on 40,000 though it has to be possible. I think borrowing sticker and planning to live like a student while you work long hours is a stupid decision. I also wouldn't count on the best hiring figures to be in place in a few years. Biglaw is changing but everyone calculates their future on stats that may not be accurate.

People advocating paying sticker are usually looking to the best possible outcome of every statistic. I haven't seen one budget that anticipates where rent will be in NYC in three years, for example. I'm done with trying to convince people not to borrow sticker. Most everyone has dollar signs in their eyes and can't seem to figure out any other possible career.

My bigger concern is how many people end up hating biglaw and the practice of law entirely. You guys like to rely on stats and percentages but they are all about income and the likelihood you might be able to keep your job. ( Of course lathaming and the ongoing stealth layoffs are ignored- not everyone who leaves biglaw gets another comparable job.)

No one has considered how deeply unhappy many people are and how desperately they want to get out of biglaw. Working all the time wears people down and starts to ibreak them. There really aren't stats on that. I think most biglaw lawyers hate it.

Once you dig yourself in with mountains of debt, it isn't easy to dig out. I think many 0Ls are just looking at the hypothetical biglaw salary they are going to earn and plan their theoretical budgets, but very few consider the actual work they will be doing, the hours and the stress.

Some people love biglaw. Make sure you are one of them before you bind your future to needing biglaw. One test is to consider how much energy you have. Another test is how much down time you need and how important your hobbies are to you. One more: have you burned yourself out in the past?

thisisunexpected
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 10:23 pm

Re: NYU v Dukein

Postby thisisunexpected » Thu May 23, 2013 4:49 pm

NYstate wrote:
I don't have debt so I can't help you. I wouldn't want to live here on $40,000 when my income is 4 times that. I don't know anyone who lives on 40,000 though it has to be possible. I think borrowing sticker and planning to live like a student while you work long hours is a stupid decision. I also wouldn't count on the best hiring figures to be in place in a few years. Biglaw is changing but everyone calculates their future on stats that may not be accurate.

People advocating paying sticker are usually looking to the best possible outcome of every statistic. I haven't seen one budget that anticipates where rent will be in NYC in three years, for example. I'm done with trying to convince people not to borrow sticker. Most everyone has dollar signs in their eyes and can't seem to figure out any other possible career.


A couple things.

One: I've lived here on 40k. I live here now on around 50-60k. I live in a studio in Manhattan below 110th, I send my laundry out, I almost never cook, I no longer only buy the second-cheapest bottle of wine in the store, my rent went up 15% in the last year, I am paying UG loans, and I'm not broke. Yes, New York is expensive. It is more expensive than most places. It is not some nightmare land where you had better make six figures or you're doomed to live in a hole in the far reaches of Queens subsisting on ramen alone like people make it out to be. This isn't the most relevant to the thread, but it's my thread, so I'm just going to throw it out there. That said, I've been working long hours for that much money for four years now and I'm not sure that I love the idea of going to law school just to end up doing it again for another four years for (after loan payments) basically the same amount of money. But:

Two: If the options basically come down to 'biglaw to pay off the debt or LRAP to forgive the debt' then how much does the $100k difference between the two schools really matter? This is a serious question, not a dismissal of the idea that there may be a difference. I guess in the case of big law it's 3 years vs 5 years? And with the LRAP...?

Three: Is there really nothing else? TLS gives the impression that the options are biglaw, PI, or being a solo practitioner hanging out your shingle for personal injury cases and ending up out of law altogether when it inevitably fails. Surely there must be a reasonable middle ground in between these options somewhere? Why is it never a thing people seem to talk about or consider?

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willwilliams1334
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby willwilliams1334 » Thu May 23, 2013 4:58 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
willwilliams1334 wrote:Oh god not this again. PLEASE don't take duke for that COA. NYU has the LRAP, placement, and reputation to get you where you want. NYU its not even close; that thread on paying back sticker has really been a boost to NYU, imo.


Normally I'm a big proponent of CCN, but what is your reasoning here? you say don't take $180K for Duke, but $280K for NYU is fine because of LRAP? You talk about "placement" and "reputation" as though they are exclusive to NYU, when that reputation and placement power are very NYC-centric and OP has more founded interest in DC/clerkship work.

NYU is an amazing school, but from testimonials I've seen most of its prestigious government and clerkship positions go to RTK/AnBryce/other named scholarship students who receive special attention and are swiftly filtered into HYS-tier positions by professors and administrators. the average NYU student doesn't have stronger AIII clerkship chances than a law student at Duke


My bad i didnt see that he wants dc apparently. Honestly, you should just do NYC; its the legal capital of the world and if your going t14, imo you should get used to the idea of doing a stint in NYC. I think being in school in NYC you get a lot more opportunity than you do at a place like Duke; Duke is just stronger in southern markets. If you feel like being in a southern market, go right on ahead, but just know that NYU gives you alot more upper end opportunity, imo. I can't emphasize enough that with some of the new figuring going on in other threads on this site as of late, CCN, EVEN STICKER, has grown into a desirable option.

muskies970
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:28 pm

Re: NYU v Dukein

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 5:00 pm

thisisunexpected wrote:
NYstate wrote:
I don't have debt so I can't help you. I wouldn't want to live here on $40,000 when my income is 4 times that. I don't know anyone who lives on 40,000 though it has to be possible. I think borrowing sticker and planning to live like a student while you work long hours is a stupid decision. I also wouldn't count on the best hiring figures to be in place in a few years. Biglaw is changing but everyone calculates their future on stats that may not be accurate.

People advocating paying sticker are usually looking to the best possible outcome of every statistic. I haven't seen one budget that anticipates where rent will be in NYC in three years, for example. I'm done with trying to convince people not to borrow sticker. Most everyone has dollar signs in their eyes and can't seem to figure out any other possible career.


A couple things.

One: I've lived here on 40k. I live here now on around 50-60k. I live in a studio in Manhattan below 110th, I send my laundry out, I almost never cook, I no longer only buy the second-cheapest bottle of wine in the store, my rent went up 15% in the last year, I am paying UG loans, and I'm not broke. Yes, New York is expensive. It is more expensive than most places. It is not some nightmare land where you had better make six figures or you're doomed to live in a hole in the far reaches of Queens subsisting on ramen alone like people make it out to be. This isn't the most relevant to the thread, but it's my thread, so I'm just going to throw it out there. That said, I've been working long hours for that much money for four years now and I'm not sure that I love the idea of going to law school just to end up doing it again for another four years for (after loan payments) basically the same amount of money. But:

Two: If the options basically come down to 'biglaw to pay off the debt or LRAP to forgive the debt' then how much does the $100k difference between the two schools really matter? This is a serious question, not a dismissal of the idea that there may be a difference. I guess in the case of big law it's 3 years vs 5 years? And with the LRAP...?

Three: Is there really nothing else? TLS gives the impression that the options are biglaw, PI, or being a solo practitioner hanging out your shingle for personal injury cases and ending up out of law altogether when it inevitably fails. Surely there must be a reasonable middle ground in between these options somewhere? Why is it never a thing people seem to talk about or consider?


This is exactly my point. The difference between Duke and NYU with a LRAP would be nothing (except from what I hear NYU has the better program and placement. The difference in NYU and Duke with biglaw is only two more years of working in the firm plus more chance of the biglaw job and prestigious options. When you consider you'll be working hte next 30 years of your life, I don't see how two or three more years in biglaw is really all that bad.
I think it comes back to the whole everyone on these threads is only thinking 5 years out, when the school name on your resume will be there forever. Just in my opinion the connections/ opportunities NYU can give you for life easily justify 100k difference in the short term (remember you'll be making anywhere from 3-5 million in your lifetime at least).

I think middle ground could be firms or jobs making 60k-100k, in which case you would probably have to rely on an IBR payment structure and then only worry about the tax bomb. I showed elsewhere where this is manageable as long as you're thinking ahead, but given an NYU or Duke degree I don't think you'll be stuck in that kind of position unless you want to be...

muskies970
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:28 pm

Re: NYU v Dukein

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 5:07 pm

NYstate wrote:I don't have debt so I can't help you. I wouldn't want to live here on $40,000 when my income is 4 times that. I don't know anyone who lives on 40,000 though it has to be possible. I think borrowing sticker and planning to live like a student while you work long hours is a stupid decision. I also wouldn't count on the best hiring figures to be in place in a few years. Biglaw is changing but everyone calculates their future on stats that may not be accurate.

People advocating paying sticker are usually looking to the best possible outcome of every statistic. I haven't seen one budget that anticipates where rent will be in NYC in three years, for example. I'm done with trying to convince people not to borrow sticker. Most everyone has dollar signs in their eyes and can't seem to figure out any other possible career.

My bigger concern is how many people end up hating biglaw and the practice of law entirely. You guys like to rely on stats and percentages but they are all about income and the likelihood you might be able to keep your job. ( Of course lathaming and the ongoing stealth layoffs are ignored- not everyone who leaves biglaw gets another comparable job.)

No one has considered how deeply unhappy many people are and how desperately they want to get out of biglaw. Working all the time wears people down and starts to ibreak them. There really aren't stats on that. I think most biglaw lawyers hate it.

Once you dig yourself in with mountains of debt, it isn't easy to dig out. I think many 0Ls are just looking at the hypothetical biglaw salary they are going to earn and plan their theoretical budgets, but very few consider the actual work they will be doing, the hours and the stress.

Some people love biglaw. Make sure you are one of them before you bind your future to needing biglaw. One test is to consider how much energy you have. Another test is how much down time you need and how important your hobbies are to you. One more: have you burned yourself out in the past?


1. OP already showed that it's possible to live on 50k, a year in NY. Plus if you're working tons of long firm hours I don't see why you would desire a larger apartment or luxurious lifestyle, you won't have the time to be enjoying them.
2. I'm not relying at all on people enjoying biglaw, merely saying they will have to suck it up and work in it for 3 years at least or 5 at best to have an easy shot at paying off the debt AND THEN moving into a much more desirable and easy position. After all, it is work and we're in the U.S., not Europe, almost any profession you're going to be working long difficult hours at first. Or else don't even bother being a lawyer and just do something with easier solid hours and without the pay.
3. It's not my job telling an OP if they're going to enjoy doing BIGLAW or not, they can figure that out for themselves and do the research, just to inform them that yes it is feasible for paying off the debt and then lateraling somewhere more desirable.

4. Whether OP goes to NYU or Duke it's the same biglaw option, so by your logic he's better off going to a TT or TTT for free and then work in a 60-70k paying 8-5 job?

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megagnarley
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby megagnarley » Thu May 23, 2013 5:51 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:How do you feel about PAYE? It seems to have the potential to dramatically lower the downside of the law school investment? And if the tax bomb is removed, is a little bit too perfect.


If the Tax Bomb gets removed (and that's a big If) that lowers the risk a lot and makes NYU at sticker less of an objectively bad decision. It's still a relatively bad decision though, when you consider how much extra you're paying per additional percentage chance at a positive outcome. Duke placed within 1% of NYU's large firm and federal clerkship placement last year. Unless someone is dead-set on P.I. work or unnecessarily concerned about dat V10 prefstige, NYU offers a very marginal advantage but costs a lot more.


You are completely overlooking any semblance of self selection in this argument. Forget not that NYU places roughly 20% more of it's class into gov and PI.

I have no dog in this fight but I think conflating % placed into biglaw with ability to place is misguided.

That being said. I am just a confused 0L making an almost identical decision so pay me no mind.

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megagnarley
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby megagnarley » Thu May 23, 2013 5:52 pm

edit: Nevermind




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