NYU v Duke

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NYU v Duke

NYU (280k)
10
19%
Duke (180k)
43
81%
 
Total votes: 53

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twenty
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby twenty » Thu May 23, 2013 11:47 am

Duke at that price lets you gun for biglaw after your 1L grades come back, or else go for PI/something else if you so desire. NYU forces you to take advantage of LRAP because there's just no way you'll be able to pay back that kind of money even if you end up in the top 1% of your class.

When the LRAPs are virtually identical, and job placement is pretty comparable, Duke is the clear winner here.

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loomstate
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby loomstate » Thu May 23, 2013 12:09 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:NYU forces you to take advantage of LRAP because there's just no way you'll be able to pay back that kind of money even if you end up in the top 1% of your class.


WTF? you can pay back NYU debt after 4-5 years of BIGLAW OP

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu May 23, 2013 12:26 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:How do you feel about PAYE? It seems to have the potential to dramatically lower the downside of the law school investment? And if the tax bomb is removed, is a little bit too perfect.


If the Tax Bomb gets removed (and that's a big If) that lowers the risk a lot and makes NYU at sticker less of an objectively bad decision. It's still a relatively bad decision though, when you consider how much extra you're paying per additional percentage chance at a positive outcome. Duke placed within 1% of NYU's large firm and federal clerkship placement last year. Unless someone is dead-set on P.I. work or unnecessarily concerned about dat V10 prefstige, NYU offers a very marginal advantage but costs a lot more.

There's too much variation in people's circumstances to say that going to NYU at sticker is "objectively" a bad decision.

In any event I agree that Duke at a $100,000 discount is the smart move.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu May 23, 2013 12:27 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Duke at that price lets you gun for biglaw after your 1L grades come back, or else go for PI/something else if you so desire. NYU forces you to take advantage of LRAP because there's just no way you'll be able to pay back that kind of money even if you end up in the top 1% of your class.

When the LRAPs are virtually identical, and job placement is pretty comparable, Duke is the clear winner here.

And, yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even know what LRAP is?

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twenty
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby twenty » Thu May 23, 2013 12:43 pm

Not really sure why this is such a earth-shattering revelation. Go do your own math -- making 5k a month payments, you barely pay off law school debt after five years. I doubt you'll find too many people (read: probably about 10% of the biglaw pool?) that makes it to year five. Oh yeah, and this is working under the foregone conclusion that there is just simply no way you won't get biglaw from NYU.

Thus, to do NYU at sticker, you basically have to gun for an LRAP-eligible job from the beginning.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 12:47 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Not really sure why this is such a earth-shattering revelation. Go do your own math -- making 5k a month payments, you barely pay off law school debt after five years. I doubt you'll find too many people (read: probably about 10% of the biglaw pool?) that makes it to year five. Oh yeah, and this is working under the foregone conclusion that there is just simply no way you won't get biglaw from NYU.

Thus, to do NYU at sticker, you basically have to gun for an LRAP-eligible job from the beginning.


It's actually 31% that make it to year 5, and the majority of those who leave do so voluntarily (See kappycaft1' spreadsheet for details).

And there's an entire thread devoted to paying back sticker debt on biglaw. Basically, you're wrong about having to gun for LRAP when paying sticker. You can do it on biglaw, you just can't live like a diva your first 3 years out of school. If you actually do the math, you'll see you end up with ~$45-50K after-tax after-loan take-home pay your first year, which only increases each year out.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu May 23, 2013 12:54 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Not really sure why this is such a earth-shattering revelation. Go do your own math -- making 5k a month payments, you barely pay off law school debt after five years. I doubt you'll find too many people (read: probably about 10% of the biglaw pool?) that makes it to year five. Oh yeah, and this is working under the foregone conclusion that there is just simply no way you won't get biglaw from NYU.

Thus, to do NYU at sticker, you basically have to gun for an LRAP-eligible job from the beginning.

You're just so very wrong about how this works.

PRgradBYU
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby PRgradBYU » Thu May 23, 2013 1:10 pm

NYU isn't worth sticker price. I'd even be wary about choosing Duke with that COA, but Duke would seem to be the smarter choice here.

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twenty
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby twenty » Thu May 23, 2013 1:21 pm

The only thing I'm just so very wrong on is the percentage of people that stick around in biglaw to year 5 (which is apparently 31% rather than 10%). Even if we were to assume that the majority of people leave biglaw before the five year mark because they'd already paid off their loans/burned out/won the lottery/whatever, we're still looking at a percent within a percent. There's two really big barriers that you have to overcome here: One, that you'll gun for BigLaw AND GET IT, and two, that you won't get forced out before you can pay off most of your loans.

And there's an entire thread devoted to paying back sticker debt on biglaw.


On that thread, I've advocated paying sticker at various top schools, that certainly includes NYU.

NYstate
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby NYstate » Thu May 23, 2013 1:33 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:The only thing I'm just so very wrong on is the percentage of people that stick around in biglaw to year 5 (which is apparently 31% rather than 10%). Even if we were to assume that the majority of people leave biglaw before the five year mark because they'd already paid off their loans/burned out/won the lottery/whatever, we're still looking at a percent within a percent. There's two really big barriers that you have to overcome here: One, that you'll gun for BigLaw AND GET IT, and two, that you won't get forced out before you can pay off most of your loans.

And there's an entire thread devoted to paying back sticker debt on biglaw.


On that thread, I've advocated paying sticker at various top schools, that certainly includes NYU.


These 0Ls are already assuming they will get biglaw and they will be able to live on very limited income ( because, hey, plenty of people with regular jobs live in NYC on less) and they will stay in biglaw long enough to repay loans. Some of them will; some won't. But that is the current plan.

As for OP: I would minimize debt. But I'm not you. If you are willing to do IBR or PAYE if you need to, go wherever you will be happier.

NYstate
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby NYstate » Thu May 23, 2013 1:34 pm

Also, don't cash out your 401(k). Just leave that money intact for your future.

thisisunexpected
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby thisisunexpected » Thu May 23, 2013 1:43 pm

For the sake of argument, let's say that I would really strongly prefer PI to biglaw. Is NYU worth the extra $100k in that scenario? (It will almost certainly be 100k difference also, just to update on that front. They offered me zero and I've appealed with my Duke offer but I'm not getting my hopes up.)

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 2:04 pm

thisisunexpected wrote:For the sake of argument, let's say that I would really strongly prefer PI to biglaw. Is NYU worth the extra $100k in that scenario? (It will almost certainly be 100k difference also, just to update on that front. They offered me zero and I've appealed with my Duke offer but I'm not getting my hopes up.)


If you are committed to finding an LRAP-eligible position, that is acceptance. However, if you have doubts and might want to do biglaw, then Duke is TCR if NYU offered zilch.

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sinfiery
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby sinfiery » Thu May 23, 2013 2:35 pm

I wish we could get someone working nyc biglaw to chime in on how much it costs as a professional to live there.

More than 31% stay in biglaw for 5 years btw as I believe that 31% figure are people who stay at 1 firm for 5 years where more than 60% who leave, leave to other large firms. Also, the amount that are presumably wanted by the firm to exit is a very very low percentage. So being forced out really doesn't seem to be common, but does occur.

muskies970
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 2:42 pm

NYU, it's already been shown that sticker is VERY possible to pay off within 5-10 years, and then the rest of your life you have the prestige and connections NYU brings that Duke does not in the North.

Please don't base your decision off of a poll on TLS, do your own research on the advantages of NYU.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby Doorkeeper » Thu May 23, 2013 3:03 pm

muskies970 wrote:NYU, it's already been shown that sticker is VERY possible to pay off within 5-10 years, and then the rest of your life you have the prestige and connections NYU brings that Duke does not in the North.

Please don't base your decision off of a poll on TLS, do your own research on the advantages of NYU.

B+ trolling.

muskies970
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 3:05 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
muskies970 wrote:NYU, it's already been shown that sticker is VERY possible to pay off within 5-10 years, and then the rest of your life you have the prestige and connections NYU brings that Duke does not in the North.

Please don't base your decision off of a poll on TLS, do your own research on the advantages of NYU.

B+ trolling.



??? Did you read the sticker thread, I opened the argument there for anyone who wanted to contend that paying sticker at a T10 (let alone a T6) wasn't a good idea or feasible... but no one bit. I'm ready to do it here too if necessary.

thisisunexpected
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby thisisunexpected » Thu May 23, 2013 3:07 pm

sinfiery wrote:I wish we could get someone working nyc biglaw to chime in on how much it costs as a professional to live there.

More than 31% stay in biglaw for 5 years btw as I believe that 31% figure are people who stay at 1 firm for 5 years where more than 60% who leave, leave to other large firms. Also, the amount that are presumably wanted by the firm to exit is a very very low percentage. So being forced out really doesn't seem to be common, but does occur.


I work at a law firm now that generally hires its associates out of biglaw and pays (I'm told by them) basically the same salary. I can tell you from having spoken to many of those associates and having lived in the city as a professional myself for some years now that you can be reasonably comfortable on anything more than 40-50k/year take-home assuming you're not supporting anyone but yourself and aren't dead-set on living like a rock star. So yeah, it is absolutely possible to pay off this sort of debt in 5 years while still living fairly well, assuming that you get the right job to begin with (which is obviously not a given). My dilemma is more whether or not I want to be forced into definitely doing biglaw for 5 years, and which school makes more sense if I'm not at all certain about the biglaw v PI decision and could still end up being swayed in either direction.

muskies970
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 3:09 pm

thisisunexpected wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I wish we could get someone working nyc biglaw to chime in on how much it costs as a professional to live there.

More than 31% stay in biglaw for 5 years btw as I believe that 31% figure are people who stay at 1 firm for 5 years where more than 60% who leave, leave to other large firms. Also, the amount that are presumably wanted by the firm to exit is a very very low percentage. So being forced out really doesn't seem to be common, but does occur.


I work at a law firm now that generally hires its associates out of biglaw and pays (I'm told by them) basically the same salary. I can tell you from having spoken to many of those associates and having lived in the city as a professional myself for some years now that you can be reasonably comfortable on anything more than 40-50k/year take-home assuming you're not supporting anyone but yourself and aren't dead-set on living like a rock star. So yeah, it is absolutely possible to pay off this sort of debt in 5 years while still living fairly well, assuming that you get the right job to begin with. My dilemma is more whether or not I want to be forced into definitely doing biglaw for 5 years, and which school makes more sense if I'm not at all certain about the biglaw v PI decision and could still end up being swayed in either direction.


If you do biglaw you have the money to pay off the debt, if you do PI you have LRAP to pay off the debt...
Either way you have the NYU prestige and connections the rest of your life and to help you get the better job in either field, i'm not seeing the argument for Duke, especially since you're north oriented.

muskies970
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby muskies970 » Thu May 23, 2013 3:09 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
muskies970 wrote:NYU, it's already been shown that sticker is VERY possible to pay off within 5-10 years, and then the rest of your life you have the prestige and connections NYU brings that Duke does not in the North.

Please don't base your decision off of a poll on TLS, do your own research on the advantages of NYU.

B+ trolling.


you can start reading here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209651&start=100

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 3:15 pm

sinfiery wrote:I wish we could get someone working nyc biglaw to chime in on how much it costs as a professional to live there.

More than 31% stay in biglaw for 5 years btw as I believe that 31% figure are people who stay at 1 firm for 5 years where more than 60% who leave, leave to other large firms. Also, the amount that are presumably wanted by the firm to exit is a very very low percentage. So being forced out really doesn't seem to be common, but does occur.


true, true. My 31% figure was those who stay at one firm.. I forget what % leave to another large firm, but it was substantial.

I cannot attest to nyc biglaw, but I can attest to nyc finance/consulting.. it depends on how frugal you want to be. Stuff like whether you do weekly dry cleaning or self-pressing, cooking or take-out, adds up and really makes the difference week to week.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 3:18 pm

muskies970 wrote:NYU, it's already been shown that sticker is VERY possible to pay off within 5-10 years, and then the rest of your life you have the prestige and connections NYU brings that Duke does not in the North.

Please don't base your decision off of a poll on TLS, do your own research on the advantages of NYU.


why is your opinion more valid than all those who made a choice in the poll? you actually seem less well informed

NYU is not a wildly prestigious institution relative to Duke. If OP is not committed to biglaw, they probably don't have V10 dreams either. It's not worth $100K, although to me it would be worth $40-50K.

thisisunexpected
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby thisisunexpected » Thu May 23, 2013 3:21 pm

jbagelboy wrote: If OP is not committed to biglaw, they probably don't have V10 dreams either.


No, I don't have my heart set on V10. In terms of things that require/generate prestige, I'm far more interested in A3 and government jobs. Of course, the latter may be easier to get when coming from V10, I'm not sure what the stats are on that if they exist.

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willwilliams1334
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby willwilliams1334 » Thu May 23, 2013 3:28 pm

Oh god not this again. PLEASE don't take duke for that COA. NYU has the LRAP, placement, and reputation to get you where you want. NYU its not even close; that thread on paying back sticker has really been a boost to NYU, imo.

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jbagelboy
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Re: NYU v Duke

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 23, 2013 3:40 pm

thisisunexpected wrote:
jbagelboy wrote: If OP is not committed to biglaw, they probably don't have V10 dreams either.


No, I don't have my heart set on V10. In terms of things that require/generate prestige, I'm far more interested in A3 and government jobs. Of course, the latter may be easier to get when coming from V10, I'm not sure what the stats are on that if they exist.


They dont -- thats why the data blows and what we can truly extrapolate is limited. Its all anecdotal for clerkships after 9 months out employment.

We can imagine that V10 employers would provide more influential references, as in any industry, but thats speculative. If anything, Duke boasts strongers clerkship figures and better DC numbers overall.




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