For practicing law is Kansas City

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cadams04
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For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cadams04 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:09 pm

Accepted with good scholarships to both UMKC and KU. Both would cost the same (UMKC granted me guaranteed in state tuition for 3 years and will actually cost about 500 a year less considering other scholarships.) I want to practice in Kansas City. Will either school give me an edge?

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romothesavior
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 22, 2013 1:11 pm

Do you have ties to KC? How much are we talking? And what kind of jobs do you want?

DportIA
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby DportIA » Wed May 22, 2013 1:13 pm

UMKC has a law school?

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cwid1391
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cwid1391 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:24 pm

From your posting history.

Tier literally does not matter.


First of all, they do. The minutiae of UNSWR rankings are silly, but they (paired with Law School Transparency) serve as a good indicator of schools that are worth going to. Only ~60% of grads from KU and UMKC are able to find full-time legal employment. We need to know more about you to make any sort of real suggestion. What's your GPA and LSAT? Do you have ties to KC? Do you have an almost certain job after graduation? All of these are relevant. Barring telling us that information, if your scores are high enough and you have ties, you can always go to a high ranked school and come back to KC.

cadams04
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cadams04 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:31 pm

cwid1391 wrote:From your posting history.

Tier literally does not matter.


First of all, they do. The minutiae of UNSWR rankings are silly, but they (paired with Law School Transparency) serve as a good indicator of schools that are worth going to. Only ~60% of grads from KU and UMKC are able to find full-time legal employment. We need to know more about you to make any sort of real suggestion. What's your GPA and LSAT? Do you have ties to KC? Do you have an almost certain job after graduation? All of these are relevant. Barring telling us that information, if your scores are high enough and you have ties, you can always go to a high ranked school and come back to KC.


LSAT: 160
GPA: 3.59
Cost of tuition: UMKC 10,000 (rounded up) KU 10,500.
Ties: I'm from a military family so I've moved way to much to have ties anywhere.

As far as going to a high ranked school, I don't want to pay the out of state tuition it will entail. Basically my question is, without any real ties to the area, will either school give me an advantage?

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cwid1391
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cwid1391 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:38 pm

cadams04 wrote:
cwid1391 wrote:From your posting history.

Tier literally does not matter.


First of all, they do. The minutiae of UNSWR rankings are silly, but they (paired with Law School Transparency) serve as a good indicator of schools that are worth going to. Only ~60% of grads from KU and UMKC are able to find full-time legal employment. We need to know more about you to make any sort of real suggestion. What's your GPA and LSAT? Do you have ties to KC? Do you have an almost certain job after graduation? All of these are relevant. Barring telling us that information, if your scores are high enough and you have ties, you can always go to a high ranked school and come back to KC.


LSAT: 160
GPA: 3.59
Cost of tuition: UMKC 10,000 (rounded up) KU 10,500.
Ties: I'm from a military family so I've moved way to much to have ties anywhere.

As far as going to a high ranked school, I don't want to pay the out of state tuition it will entail. Basically my question is, without any real ties to the area, will either school give me an advantage?


I'm responding before the firestorm of "retake" sets in - which is probably still the correct response.

But given your goals of working in KC, that's not a ton of debt to take on if you're sure that's where you want to work. Keep in mind, though, that you're going to need to be in the top of your class at either of those schools to have a shot at a good firm in KC - you're going to be competing with people who are coming back to KC from top schools as well. Ties aren't nearly as big as I think some people on TLS make them out to be. If you have any family in KC or can come up with a plausible excuse as to why you want to be there (and won't run to a bigger market the first time you get another job offer) you'll probably be fine.

Secondly, how hard did you try on the LSAT? Did you prep for months? Days? Depending on how hard you tried, the correct answer here is to retake. If you could get that LSAT up to a 168, you'd have an excellent chance of snagging a T14. Even with debt, your prospects would be far more certain, and you can always go back to KC. But again, you're not talking about taking on sticker at KU or UMKC (which everyone here would say is a terrible decision) and the amount that you're looking at is fairly reasonable for your goals.

cadams04
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cadams04 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:45 pm

I'm actually retaking in June just to see if I could get higher. However, right now, I feel these are my best options. I don't want to pull out more than 30K in dept with the economy the way it is. If I get a higher LSAT, I'll be re-applying to these schools for more scholarships.

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cwid1391
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cwid1391 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:47 pm

cadams04 wrote:I'm actually retaking in June just to see if I could get higher. However, right now, I feel these are my best options. I don't want to pull out more than 30K in dept with the economy the way it is. If I get a higher LSAT, I'll be re-applying to these schools for more scholarships.


Good response. You're going into this with a more thoughtful attitude than most of the first time posters. It's smart not to be taking out much debt. Just blow the LSAT out of the water and see where you stand afterwards.

y2zipper
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby y2zipper » Wed May 22, 2013 3:30 pm

cwid1391 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:I'm actually retaking in June just to see if I could get higher. However, right now, I feel these are my best options. I don't want to pull out more than 30K in dept with the economy the way it is. If I get a higher LSAT, I'll be re-applying to these schools for more scholarships.


Good response. You're going into this with a more thoughtful attitude than most of the first time posters. It's smart not to be taking out much debt. Just blow the LSAT out of the water and see where you stand afterwards.


You're looking at debt the wrong way if you just think it's a "bad thing." Debt is a tool that you use to improve your life. You always have to compare debt with the likelihood you can pay it off in a likely outcome and the earning power that comes with the burden.

In your case, the schools and debt levels are reasonable for your goals as long as you're okay with the disadvantage in job prospects and are 100% sure on the region.

Oh, and props on retaking.

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cwid1391
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cwid1391 » Wed May 22, 2013 3:44 pm

y2zipper wrote:
cwid1391 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:I'm actually retaking in June just to see if I could get higher. However, right now, I feel these are my best options. I don't want to pull out more than 30K in dept with the economy the way it is. If I get a higher LSAT, I'll be re-applying to these schools for more scholarships.


Good response. You're going into this with a more thoughtful attitude than most of the first time posters. It's smart not to be taking out much debt. Just blow the LSAT out of the water and see where you stand afterwards.


You're looking at debt the wrong way if you just think it's a "bad thing." Debt is a tool that you use to improve your life. You always have to compare debt with the likelihood you can pay it off in a likely outcome and the earning power that comes with the burden.

In your case, the schools and debt levels are reasonable for your goals as long as you're okay with the disadvantage in job prospects and are 100% sure on the region.

Oh, and props on retaking.


Wut? I was commending him on not having a ton of debt to go to the schools he was thinking about - which is to say, I was saying he did a decent job of "comparing debt with the likelihood that he can pay it off". Of course debt is a tool, that doesn't mean having it is a good thing or that it shouldn't be minimized when possible.

cadams04
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cadams04 » Wed May 22, 2013 8:00 pm

Instead of adding a new post. Would anyone on the post advice for or against doing a duel degree JD/Business Admin?

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2014
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby 2014 » Wed May 22, 2013 9:32 pm

cadams04 wrote:Instead of adding a new post. Would anyone on the post advice for or against doing a duel degree JD/Business Admin?

Very bad idea from any school you can get into. You will end up spending a lot of money without getting any tangible benefit and in fact might just confuse employers who will question your commitment to either direction.


For your original question it kind of depends on the type of person you are. I gather that the opportunities are slightly better at KU but UMKC being in the city might give you more opportunity to network and get involved with the legal community which frankly could be necessary if you end up outside of the top 5-10%.

I don't think going to either is a bad idea if you go in realizing that the odds are against you working in a big firm, so you better be in it because you want to be a lawyer not because you want to make bank.

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sublime
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby sublime » Thu May 23, 2013 12:19 am

..

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romothesavior
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby romothesavior » Thu May 23, 2013 9:48 am

Are you saying tuition is 10k a year, or 10k for all three years? And are you taking out debt for your COL?

I ask because the answers to those questions could make your total debt at graduation anywhere from 10k to 90k.

Peyton
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby Peyton » Thu May 23, 2013 10:09 am

I have a relative in KC who owns a furniture store. Around a year ago he hired a salesperson with a newly minted JD from either KU or UMKC…. that person is still selling furniture (at least he was a month ago). Just sayin’ you might first want to check out the KC legal market beforehand.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Thu May 23, 2013 10:33 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

jaderudall
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby jaderudall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:28 am

deleted

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thatgumyoulike
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby thatgumyoulike » Fri May 24, 2013 12:26 pm

For practicing law IS Kansas City.

This has dissertation potential.

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cwid1391
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cwid1391 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:42 pm

thatgumyoulike wrote:For practicing law IS Kansas City.

This has dissertation potential.


For Practicing Law is Kansas City: Jurisprudential Existentialism in the Midwest's Bygone Cities.

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IAFG
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby IAFG » Fri May 24, 2013 1:45 pm

How many people a year are actually getting paid cash money to be a new attorney in KC?

cadams04
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby cadams04 » Fri May 24, 2013 8:11 pm

Ok. Sorry. All the facts.

Undergrad was paid for entirely by scholarships. As of now I have no dept and a large savings account (at least 6 month comfortable cost of living). I was just offered 4K more from UMKC through negotiations. COL at law school is covered by grandparents. They wanted to pay for my undergrad, but since I had it all paid for they want to at least pay COL for law school. Tuition will be my only dept which will come out to roughly 30k expecting tuition increase. Retaking LSAT which UMKC said they will give me anywhere between 2 to 5K more with just a few point increase for this coming fall. Assuming though I do not get a higher score; is graduating from UMKC, wanting to work regionally, with 30K in dept at graduation a huge mistake?

Regarding the title of the post, I've type all of this on my phone. It's funny that anyone expected decent grammar on a forum.

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2014
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby 2014 » Fri May 24, 2013 10:06 pm

IAFG wrote:How many people a year are actually getting paid cash money to be a new attorney in KC?

I think there are roughly 50 market SA slots for the whole city, 1/3 of those are probably 1Ls. Don't know offer rates, but I'd call it 35 first year attorneys.

E - 30k debt from UMKC is very doable, but you need to ask yourself if you want to be a lawyer, or if you want to make bank. If the latter, your odds are awful at UMKC or KU for that matter, if you just want to be a lawyer, your debt will be low enough that you can be open to jobs others with more debt can't.

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romothesavior
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby romothesavior » Tue May 28, 2013 4:31 pm

Agree with 2014. If you understand the lack of geographic mobility and biglaw opportunities from these schools, then they are both fine choices for KC. But you're putting yourself behind the 8-ball and big firm work is very unlikely.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue May 28, 2013 4:38 pm

cadams04 wrote:It's funny that anyone expected decent grammar on a forum.


Twenty bucks says this is the first forum this guy has ever been on.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: For practicing law is Kansas City

Postby TatteredDignity » Tue May 28, 2013 5:46 pm

I know this thread has gone in a different direction, but to answer your original question, legal employers in KC definitely distinguish among T14->KU/MU->UMKC. I've interacted with a few umkc grads over the last two summers, and they were all either at the very top of their class or diversity hires. They freely acknowledge their classmates with neither of those attributes are SOL.




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