NYU (sticker) vs. Mich ($$) for California Forum

[JamMasterJ]

If I actually showed you the comparison of NYU vs. Duke in CA big firms, it would be exceedingly clear that they are not treated as peer schools and that the difference is far from marginal. Michigan is not Duke, obviously. Michigan, by virtue of its location tends to place students in various locations, including CA, so I would imagine the difference wouldn't be quite as big as it was between NYU & Duke. But having said that, the numbers simply don't support a claim that CA big firms doesn't view NYU any differently than lower T-14 schools.

whoosh

First of all, NYU's class size is over twice as large, meaning you've got over twice as many idiots picking NYU because of rank alone and then bringing it back to CA.

Second, think about the kind of people who choose Duke and the kind of people who choose NYU. Who do you think is more likely to be attracted to working in CA? Self-selection plays a huge role, and Duke is largely NYC / DC / Southern market focused. I'll bet there are a lot more Duke grads working in the South than NYU grads, but I'm not about to claim that Southern markets think Duke is a better school.

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I'm not at NYU, but I will admit that it was in the running against my current school and I mainly turned it down because I didn't like the business school. It's hilarious how insecure people are about their schools.

i think there's an argument to be made that our rank is based heavily on being in NY, which is less valuable the further away you get. If someone really doesn't want to work here, the things that make us great are very slightly less transferrable than, for instance, CLS.

I may be reading your argument wrongly though

[BigZuck]

If I actually showed you the comparison of NYU vs. Duke in CA big firms, it would be exceedingly clear that they are not treated as peer schools and that the difference is far from marginal. Michigan is not Duke, obviously. Michigan, by virtue of its location tends to place students in various locations, including CA, so I would imagine the difference wouldn't be quite as big as it was between NYU & Duke. But having said that, the numbers simply don't support a claim that CA big firms doesn't view NYU any differently than lower T-14 schools.

whoosh

First of all, NYU's class size is over twice as large, meaning you've got over twice as many idiots picking NYU because of rank alone and then bringing it back to CA.

Second, think about the kind of people who choose Duke and the kind of people who choose NYU. Who do you think is more likely to be attracted to working in CA? Self-selection plays a huge role, and Duke is largely NYC / DC / Southern market focused. I'll bet there are a lot more Duke grads working in the South than NYU grads, but I'm not about to claim that Southern markets think Duke is a better school.

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I'm not at NYU, but I will admit that it was in the running against my current school and I mainly turned it down because I didn't like the business school. It's hilarious how insecure people are about their schools.

Might be hard to believe but some people do actually make school choices based on things like cost, geographical preferences, proximity to significant others, etc. I'm sure people choose schools like Duke over schools like NYU for factors such as these. I chose a lower ranked school with lesser job prospects for these reasons. But feel free to make fun of the school I chose, my butt can take the hurting.

[BigZuck]

It's irrelevant what "many others" got, unless they got the $$ with megagnarley's stats

Even then, there seems to be some marginal need-based component to NYU's aid.

We should probably have a few more pages of speculation as to what megagnarley's NYU aid package will be, though, for sure.

Even if we accept this premise, having NY as an almost sure thing backup versus having not as solid a backup plan in the event that OP strikes out in CA is worth the price difference. In that event, he works in NY for two years and transfers/laterals to CA. Now, if OP has literally zero willingness to work in NY at all, that's a different scenario, but no one should be taking out 150K + if they're not willing to work in NY for at least a couple years if needed.


Also, our LRAP's better.

Careful friend. It's going to be tough to convince the Michigan fanboys that their LRAP isn't "DA TITS."

[fallingup]

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I personally know of at least 6 people who chose Duke over NYU and were admitted to both schools, including myself. In my experience, the kind of people who "choose" Duke are usually the ones who didn't see the point of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for NYU. My total bill at Duke, including COL, is 90,000...try telling me I made the wrong choice.

[kaiser]

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I personally know of at least 6 people who chose Duke over NYU and were admitted to both schools, including myself. In my experience, the kind of people who "choose" Duke are usually the ones who didn't see the point of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for NYU. My total bill at Duke, including COL, is 90,000...try telling me I made the wrong choice.

Dude, no one said you or anyone else who chose Duke made the wrong choice. He just took issue with the suggestion that one has to be an idiot blindly picking by rank to choose NYU over a lower T14.

[rickgrimes69]

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU.

I personally know of at least 6 people who chose Duke over NYU and were admitted to both schools, including myself. In my experience, the kind of people who "choose" Duke are usually the ones who didn't see the point of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for NYU. My total bill at Duke, including COL, is 90,000...try telling me I made the wrong choice.

Dude, no one said you or anyone else who chose Duke made the wrong choice. He just took issue with the suggestion that one has to be an idiot blindly picking by rank to choose NYU over a lower T14.

Not even close to what I said. What I said was that NYU's larger class size and high rank necessarily includes a larger number of people who chose the school based on rank alone, which is idiotic. I never said everybody who chose NYU was blinded by rank, nor do I believe that to be true.

I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

This is idiotic and completely untrue. I know a substantial number of people who turned down NYU for Duke. NYU's numbers just aren't that much better and Duke has given out a ton of money the last couple cycles.

[Borg]

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I personally know of at least 6 people who chose Duke over NYU and were admitted to both schools, including myself. In my experience, the kind of people who "choose" Duke are usually the ones who didn't see the point of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for NYU. My total bill at Duke, including COL, is 90,000...try telling me I made the wrong choice.

Sure, you can find people at Georgetown who took it over Harvard too. I never suggested that taking Duke with a scholarship is a bad choice, just that all else equal it's better to go to NYU. A tiny sample size of outlier occurrences does not mean the two schools are equivalent, and I think the suggestion that people blindly choose NYU and that it doesn't have any distinct advantages over Duke is fallacious. Duke has to pay people $100,000+ to get them to choose it over NYU, and that says something.

[sinfiery]

Might be hard to believe but some people do actually make school choices based on things like cost, geographical preferences, proximity to significant others, etc. I'm sure people choose schools like Duke over schools like NYU for factors such as these.

None of these options explains why someone who self selects to CA would choose NYU over Duke.


Self selection is something to consider but the data used to equalize NYU and duke is as much at the whims of self selection as is ca placement data.

Why we, as students, don't demand more comprehensive OCI and student personal survey data is beyond me

[beepboopbeep]

Why are we even talking about Duke in this thread?

[fallingup]

LOL at (1) rank alone, as if NYU has nothing else going for it than some unexplainable seat as 6th in the country (recently 5th or even 4th as well) and (2) that people are "choosing" between Duke and NYU. I think the kind of people who "choose" Duke are the ones who didn't get into NYU.

I personally know of at least 6 people who chose Duke over NYU and were admitted to both schools, including myself. In my experience, the kind of people who "choose" Duke are usually the ones who didn't see the point of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars extra for NYU. My total bill at Duke, including COL, is 90,000...try telling me I made the wrong choice.

Sure, you can find people at Georgetown who took it over Harvard too. I never suggested that taking Duke with a scholarship is a bad choice, just that all else equal it's better to go to NYU. A tiny sample size of outlier occurrences does not mean the two schools are equivalent, and I think the suggestion that people blindly choose NYU and that it doesn't have any distinct advantages over Duke is fallacious. Duke has to pay people $100,000+ to get them to choose it over NYU, and that says something.

All else is NEVER equal. Show me someone who got admitted to NYU who did not get at least a 1/3 tuition scholarship at Duke.

[kaiser]

Why are we even talking about Duke in this thread?

Its my fault. Someone made the argument that, in CA, NYU would be treated the same as any other lower T14. I knew from seeing the CA big firm stats as to NYU and Duke (from a prior thread), that this conclusion wasn't really warranted. So I provided those stats. And while I conceded that Michigan may very well have much more CA representation than Duke, my point was that we can't just rely on some baseline assumption that NYU will be treated by CA employers the same as any other lower T14. But it unfortunately led to a tangential discussion that is far from OP's initial question.

[muskies970]

Landscape: Would love to get back to California to practice biglaw in LA. Very strong LA ties.

Deciding between mich with $67.5k over 3 years and NYU at sticker.

Given I want to work in CA not sure the NYU boost is worth $67.5 more, but would love some input.

Already deposited at Mich and love the school but would make the jump if it makes sense.

If you love Michigan, with strong LA ties I think it's definitely worth the 67.5k (plus COL difference) difference from NYU.

Hope to see you there next year!

[fallingup]

Why are we even talking about Duke in this thread?

Its my fault. Someone made the argument that, in CA, NYU would be treated the same as any other lower T14. I knew from seeing the CA big firm stats as to NYU and Duke (from a prior thread), that this conclusion wasn't really warranted. So I provided those stats. And while I conceded that Michigan may very well have much more CA representation than Duke, my point was that we can't just rely on some baseline assumption that NYU will be treated by CA employers the same as any other lower T14. But it unfortunately led to a tangential discussion that is far from OP's initial question.

Because in addition to making the claim that NYU > Duke/Michigan in CA, you made the claim that Michigan > Duke in CA. You did not substantiate the latter claim.

[jbagelboy]

Landscape: Would love to get back to California to practice biglaw in LA. Very strong LA ties.

Deciding between mich with $67.5k over 3 years and NYU at sticker.

Given I want to work in CA not sure the NYU boost is worth $67.5 more, but would love some input.

Already deposited at Mich and love the school but would make the jump if it makes sense.

If you love Michigan, with strong LA ties I think it's definitely worth the 67.5k (plus COL difference) difference from NYU.

Hope to see you there next year!

this is the whole reason this thread should have been tabled. its probably not a 67.5K scholarship difference. but oh well. if you want to debate Michigan v NYU overall, thats a different story but it would most likely have a different outcome.

[Borg]

Landscape: Would love to get back to California to practice biglaw in LA. Very strong LA ties.

Deciding between mich with $67.5k over 3 years and NYU at sticker.

Given I want to work in CA not sure the NYU boost is worth $67.5 more, but would love some input.

Already deposited at Mich and love the school but would make the jump if it makes sense.

If you love Michigan, with strong LA ties I think it's definitely worth the 67.5k (plus COL difference) difference from NYU.

Hope to see you there next year!

this is the whole reason this thread should have been tabled. its probably not a 67.5K scholarship difference. but oh well. if you want to debate Michigan v NYU overall, thats a different story but it would most likely have a different outcome.

Agreed. I am done dealing with insecure Duke people. Search firm sites for CA offices from both schools and see what you come up with. If it looks like your odds really are significantly better coming from NYU, do it. If not, enjoy Michigan!

[kaiser]

Why are we even talking about Duke in this thread?

Its my fault. Someone made the argument that, in CA, NYU would be treated the same as any other lower T14. I knew from seeing the CA big firm stats as to NYU and Duke (from a prior thread), that this conclusion wasn't really warranted. So I provided those stats. And while I conceded that Michigan may very well have much more CA representation than Duke, my point was that we can't just rely on some baseline assumption that NYU will be treated by CA employers the same as any other lower T14. But it unfortunately led to a tangential discussion that is far from OP's initial question.

Because in addition to making the claim that NYU > Duke/Michigan in CA, you made the claim that Michigan > Duke in CA. You did not substantiate the latter claim.

Then lets substantiate the claim. I'll run the numbers for Michigan representation in the same CA firm offices noted earlier in the thread and compare it to Duke numbers already posted in the thread. Will update with the results in a few minutes.

[BigZuck]

Might be hard to believe but some people do actually make school choices based on things like cost, geographical preferences, proximity to significant others, etc. I'm sure people choose schools like Duke over schools like NYU for factors such as these.

None of these options explains why someone who self selects to CA would choose NYU over Duke.


Self selection is something to consider but the data used to equalize NYU and duke is as much at the whims of self selection as is ca placement data.

Why we, as students, don't demand more comprehensive OCI and student personal survey data is beyond me

I was addressing the tangent, not really the thread. I was just saying people do pick Duke over NYU, and for valid reasons. That has nothing to do with either schools CA placement or the OP (who has already passed on D for M)

[sinfiery]

True, they do. The tangent you responded to was responding the the seemingly fallacious claim that law school cultures have a pretty tangible effect on where people who want to work in CA would attend. He may have added an extra barb that wasn't merrited but the original point he responded to is silly, imo.

[jbagelboy]

FWIW this Duke v NYU discussion draws down most often to geographic considerations, personal preference and cost. If you want to work in the cotton states, Duke brand is on par with Harvard down there. There are tons of people who will attend Duke over NYU for that reason, and even at equal cost I would take Duke over NYU if I wanted to work there. Similarly, many of my friends would not live in north carolina for just about anything, and NYU at sticker would always be preferable. Not everyone that gets in to Duke gets into NYU, and not everyone that gets into NYU gets into Duke (Duke actually has a higher selectivity rate). I don't understand why a conversation like this must consistently pervade these forums. We are essentially comparing peers. so stoppppppppp

[gnuwheels]

Then lets substantiate the claim. I'll run the numbers for Michigan representation in the same CA firm offices noted earlier in the thread and compare it to Duke numbers already posted in the thread. Will update with the results in a few minutes.

This may well make the OP's decision for him. I have a feeling these numbers are going to be depressing...

[kaiser]

Ok, here are your numbers between Duke & Michigan for the exact firms in the sample used earlier. First 6 firms are CA-based, while the other 2 were random non-CA high-level firms I searched. All numbers are total representation within all CA offices of the respective firms:

Quinn Emanuel: 3 Duke, 12 Michigan, 21 NYU
Gibson Dunn: 9 Duke, 18 Michigan, 22 NYU
Paul Hastings: 3 Duke, 8 Michigan, 13 NYU
Latham: 13 Duke, 19 Michigan, 16 NYU
O Melvaney: 5 Duke, 15 Michigan, 12 NYU
MoFo: 4 Duke, 18 Michigan, 16 NYU
Orrick: 2 Duke, 6 Michigan, 12 NYU
Skadden: 0 Duke, 3 Michigan, 14 NYU
Sidley: 0 Duke, 2 Michigan, 16 NYU

Total: 39 Duke, 101 Michigan, 139 NYU

Of course, we have to account for class size. Each Michigan class is a little over 3/4 the size of an NYU class, so it actually seems totally in line that the Michigan representation in the CA offices is right around 3/4 of NYU's. Of course, other factors may skew this (i.e. perhaps a greater percentage of MI students shoot for CA but don't end up getting it), but on face value, the numbers seem to indicate that NYU and MI have pretty comparable placement out in CA.

[muskies970]

FWIW this Duke v NYU discussion draws down most often to geographic considerations, personal preference and cost. If you want to work in the cotton states, Duke brand is on par with Harvard down there. There are tons of people who will attend Duke over NYU for that reason, and even at equal cost I would take Duke over NYU if I wanted to work there. Similarly, many of my friends would not live in north carolina for just about anything, and NYU at sticker would always be preferable. Not everyone that gets in to Duke gets into NYU, and not everyone that gets into NYU gets into Duke (Duke actually has a higher selectivity rate). I don't understand why a conversation like this must consistently pervade these forums. We are essentially comparing peers. so stoppppppppp

lol

[sinfiery]

Mich holding strong. Did not expect that, I'd take Mich if CA was the goal



Also, UVA is the most selective of schools

[muskies970]

Ok, here are your numbers between Duke & Michigan for the exact firms in the sample used earlier. First 6 firms are CA-based, while the other 2 were random non-CA high-level firms I searched. All numbers are total representation within all CA offices of the respective firms:

Quinn Emanuel: 3 Duke, 12 Michigan
Gibson Dunn: 9 Duke, 18 Michigan
Paul Hastings: 3 Duke, 8 Michigan
Latham: 13 Duke, 19 Michigan
O Melvaney: 5 Duke, 15 Michigan
MoFo: 4 Duke, 18 Michigan
Orrick: 2 Duke, 6 Michigan
Skadden: 0 Duke, 3 Michigan
Sidley: 0 Duke, 2 Michigan

Total: 39 Duke, 101 Michigan

And by way of NYU vs. Michigan comparison, it is 139 NYU to 101 Michigan. Of course, we have to account for class size. Each Michigan class is a little over 3/4 the size of an NYU class, so it actually seems totally in line that the Michigan representation in the CA offices is right around 3/4 of NYU's. Of course, other factors may skew this (i.e. perhaps a greater percentage of MI students shoot for CA but don't end up getting it), but on face value, the numbers seem to indicate that NYU and MI have pretty comparable placement out in CA.

And Michigan has a 1.5x larger class size then Duke. Even with these numbers I think it's hard to tell because of the previously mentioned self selection placement.

Peer schools, choose by personal preference, do well, place in top 1-50%, profit

[jbagelboy]

Mich holding strong. Did not expect that, I'd take Mich if CA was the goal



Also, UVA Yale is the most selective of schools

moreover, as Dre often reminds us,

Mich holding strong. Did not expect that, I'd take Mich if CA was the goal



Also, UVA Yale UCI is the most selective of schools