Law School Transparency and others

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cadams04
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Law School Transparency and others

Postby cadams04 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:09 pm

How reliable are sites like lawschooltransparency.com and the us news ranking stats when considering law schools?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:11 pm

cadams04 wrote:How reliable are sites like lawschooltransparency.com and the us news ranking stats when considering law schools?

LST is the ONLY decent data we have. It uses the same actual data as US News (and NALP) but breaks it down to better show what it really means. 98% employment sounds great until you find out that 20% of those jobs don't required a JD and another 30% are people who are desperate and have started their own firms (which will likely fail).

cadams04
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby cadams04 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:16 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:How reliable are sites like lawschooltransparency.com and the us news ranking stats when considering law schools?

LST is the ONLY decent data we have. It uses the same actual data as US News (and NALP) but breaks it down to better show what it really means. 98% employment sounds great until you find out that 20% of those jobs don't required a JD and another 30% are people who are desperate and have started their own firms (which will likely fail).


What goes into the decisions on rankings for US news report? Because looking at LST I have found several schools that look much better (statistically) than a certain school but are ranked 20 places lower or even in a different tier?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:17 pm

cadams04 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:How reliable are sites like lawschooltransparency.com and the us news ranking stats when considering law schools?

LST is the ONLY decent data we have. It uses the same actual data as US News (and NALP) but breaks it down to better show what it really means. 98% employment sounds great until you find out that 20% of those jobs don't required a JD and another 30% are people who are desperate and have started their own firms (which will likely fail).


What goes into the decisions on rankings for US news report? Because looking at LST I have found several schools that look much better (statistically) than a certain school but are ranked 20 places lower or even in a different tier?

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-gr ... s-rankings

They are heavily influenced by peer and lawyer/judge assessments, which are subjective and stupid.
Last edited by rinkrat19 on Sun May 19, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rad lulz » Sun May 19, 2013 2:17 pm

The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.

cadams04
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby cadams04 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:20 pm

rad lulz wrote:The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.


What classifies a tier? Is it strictly the # ranking of the school?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:25 pm

cadams04 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.


What classifies a tier? Is it strictly the # ranking of the school?

Tier literally does not matter.

USNWR now only has 2 tiers, 1-100 and everything else. It used to be that T1 was 1-50, T2 was 51-100, and T3/T4 were everything else.

You're getting caught up in bullshit that doesn't matter. Look at employment outcomes on LST, cost, and location. That's it.

rad lulz
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rad lulz » Sun May 19, 2013 2:25 pm

cadams04 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.


What classifies a tier? Is it strictly the # ranking of the school?

Just ignore the USNWR ranking altogether

cadams04
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby cadams04 » Sun May 19, 2013 2:26 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.


What classifies a tier? Is it strictly the # ranking of the school?

Tier literally does not matter.

USNWR now only has 2 tiers, 1-100 and everything else. It used to be that T1 was 1-50, T2 was 51-100, and T3/T4 were everything else.

You're getting caught up in bullshit that doesn't matter. Look at employment outcomes on LST, cost, and location. That's it.


That was the point for my question: whether or not this info is worth looking into. Thanks for your help.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun May 19, 2013 3:06 pm

US News rankings are largely useless, because outside of the T13, law schools don't really have national reach. If you know where you want to work, look for the best law school (employment wise) in that region.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun May 19, 2013 5:10 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:US News rankings are largely useless, because outside of the T13, law schools don't really have national reach. If you know where you want to work, look for the best law school (employment wise) in that region.


I would argue that GULC still has national reach, even if their overall employment stats suck. They suck nationally instead of merely locally.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun May 19, 2013 6:04 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:US News rankings are largely useless, because outside of the T13, law schools don't really have national reach. If you know where you want to work, look for the best law school (employment wise) in that region.


I would argue that GULC still has national reach, even if their overall employment stats suck. They suck nationally instead of merely locally.

I'm just all aboard the kick GULC out of the T-14 train. They do have national reach and some prestige, but as of right now, their status as an elite school is based purely on reputation as opposed to employment data.

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jrsbaseball5
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby jrsbaseball5 » Sun May 19, 2013 6:11 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
cadams04 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:The actual USNWR ranking # of a school is pretty much worthless.


What classifies a tier? Is it strictly the # ranking of the school?

Tier literally does not matter.

USNWR now only has 2 tiers, 1-100 and everything else. It used to be that T1 was 1-50, T2 was 51-100, and T3/T4 were everything else.

You're getting caught up in bullshit that doesn't matter. Look at employment outcomes on LST, cost, and location. That's it.


Ya don't get caught up in the rankings unless it's 1-14, and as Noodley pointed out some will argue 1-13. It doesn't matter that you go to a school ranked a few spots higher if it is not in the market you want and will likely lead to unemployment.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sun May 19, 2013 7:27 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:US News rankings are largely useless, because outside of the T13, law schools don't really have national reach. If you know where you want to work, look for the best law school (employment wise) in that region.


I would argue that GULC still has national reach, even if their overall employment stats suck. They suck nationally instead of merely locally.

I'm just all aboard the kick GULC out of the T-14 train. They do have national reach and some prestige, but as of right now, their status as an elite school is based purely on reputation as opposed to employment data.


I agree with all of this. However, I still think they could be worthy of the T14 again if they just cut their class size in half.

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sinfiery
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby sinfiery » Sun May 19, 2013 7:34 pm

GULC would be a monster with half their class size. Also broke.

20141023
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby 20141023 » Sun May 19, 2013 8:02 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Randomnumbers
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby Randomnumbers » Sun May 19, 2013 11:32 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:GULC would be a monster with half their class size. Also broke.

Yes, but so would Harvard, NYU, and Columbia. :P


It might take Harvard a while to run through their 1.7 Billion + endowment first though. (And yes, that's just the law school.)

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon May 20, 2013 12:12 am

Randomnumbers wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:GULC would be a monster with half their class size. Also broke.

Yes, but so would Harvard, NYU, and Columbia. :P


It might take Harvard a while to run through their 1.7 Billion + endowment first though. (And yes, that's just the law school.)


http://www.constitutionaldaily.com/inde ... &Itemid=65

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Mon May 20, 2013 1:11 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:US News rankings are largely useless, because outside of the T13, law schools don't really have national reach. If you know where you want to work, look for the best law school (employment wise) in that region.


I would argue that GULC still has national reach, even if their overall employment stats suck. They suck nationally instead of merely locally.

I'm just all aboard the kick GULC out of the T-14 train. They do have national reach and some prestige, but as of right now, their status as an elite school is based purely on reputation as opposed to employment data.


I agree with all of this. However, I still think they could be worthy of the T14 again if they just cut their class size in half.

If GULC cut their class size in half, they would probably eventually be a top 5 law school easily. Just like if Harvard cut it's class size in half, or better yet down to Yale's, they would be the undisputed #1 and it wouldn't be close. But GULC obviously can't do that at this point because the ball's already rolling.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 20, 2013 1:52 am

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
If GULC cut their class size in half, they would probably eventually be a top 5 law school easily.



why

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jrsbaseball5
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby jrsbaseball5 » Mon May 20, 2013 2:12 am

jenesaislaw wrote:
Randomnumbers wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:GULC would be a monster with half their class size. Also broke.

Yes, but so would Harvard, NYU, and Columbia. :P


It might take Harvard a while to run through their 1.7 Billion + endowment first though. (And yes, that's just the law school.)


http://www.constitutionaldaily.com/inde ... &Itemid=65


That is incredible.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Mon May 20, 2013 2:43 am

Dr. Dre wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:
If GULC cut their class size in half, they would probably eventually be a top 5 law school easily.



why

The list of reasons is pretty much endless, but for the most part it all comes down to one word = desirability. The Georgetown name combined with its location in this country's legal epicenter are an incredible combination. GULC is actually in a prime location to be one of the very very top law schools, if not the top law school, in the country. For statistical proof of its desirability, think about the fact that their class size is about 3 times the size of Cornell's and it has higher medians - that's insane. For example, that means that the 169 median LSAT at Georgetown (GULC's c/o 2015 289th LSAT out of 578) is the same as the Cornell's 75th% LSAT (Cornell c/o 2015 At least tied for 49th best LSAT out of 194 entering students). So the GULC student with the 289th best LSAT in GULC's entering class had the same LSAT score as the 49th best LSAT in Cornell's entering class. Then think about the fact that Cornell places 60%+ into BigLaw and GULC only 40%+.. that's because of class size (and partly bc Cornell feeds the biggest BigLaw market - NYC, but mostly because of class size). Think about it - Firms don't want, and no company wants, to have a roster filled with people from one school. So if they come to OCI, a certain firm isn't going to look at it like "okay I'll take 18 max from GULC and 6 max from Cornell", which would be what is needed to keep GULC's employment numbers on par with Cornell's. GULC is the biggest or 2nd biggest school, so firms would be flooded with GULC grads. And that is why GULC takes a hit in rankings and perception. And I believe that is also why Harvard is at times ranked behind Stanford, even though I believe Harvard is definitely a better law school and a Harvard JD can do much more for you within the legal community and outside of it.

Furthermore, GULC has almost 3x the size of Duke and the medians are very similar. It has about 230 more students per class than Michigan (#10) and their medians are identical. You only start seeing a notable difference once you get inside the top 7 schools. And then considering how much bigger GULC is, it makes more than enough sense. It's shocking that schools like Cornell and Duke can't blow GULC out of the water considering how much smaller they are. In my opinion, the credentials of your entering students are what separate law schools because everything else flows from that. If GULC were to (not going to happen) cut it's class size in half, it's medians would shoot up which would then cause a snowball effect that would result in its ranking increasing. Then more and more students who want to end up in DC anyway would go right to GULC, instead of a UVA, etc. I know people from all over the country who dream of attending Georgetown Law, specifically bc it's in DC and the unparalleled access/opportunities it has compared to the rest of the T14, but with the way things are it's hard to turn down the other schools. Imagine if you could get a Yale degree in DC.. minutes away from the Supreme Court. That would be incredible. The only reason GULC's rank is 14 and it takes such a beating on this site is because of its class size.

I'm getting pretty tired, so I don't feel like writing anymore.. but yeah...They should have never let the class size get that big because they watered down the brand. But now it's too late, because you can't cut the class size without firing people, cutting expenses, etc. - which in some cases would be counterproductive. The wheels are already in motion..

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon May 20, 2013 5:22 am

Was Georgetown ever small?

20141023
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby 20141023 » Mon May 20, 2013 10:13 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jenesaislaw
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Re: Law School Transparency and others

Postby jenesaislaw » Mon May 20, 2013 11:11 am

I've been trying with the ABA to get the data for years, unfortunately.




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