How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:38 am

buddyt wrote:I agree, but you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the bills, and the right degree can help you do that. Paying tens of thousands a year just for DAT RIGOROUS INTELLECTUAL STIMULATION seems silly to me, unless you've got time/money to burn and some other way to pay the bills.


Yup. The idea that college is a place for intellectual growth has long gone the way of the fucking dodo. In most cases it's just not worth $200k just so little Johnny can know a thing or two about the Brontes.

cotiger wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:He's big on copping DAT WELL-ROUNDED LIBERAL ARTS EDUCATION THO and I think the credited move is to go to the most clownshit UG you can find, cop that 3.9 simply for not being a mouthbreather, murdering the LSAT because it's secretly really easy, and then hoping the H-bomb can stomach the proleness of your degree.


Gotta go with jbagelboy here. Your ideal scenario seems so... soulless and mercenary and ick.


Show your work. Assume both of us have $300k to spend on our education and both of us were paying sticker somewhere. He spends $200k copping dat intellectual rigor and has $100k left for law school, so he racks up say $150k or so in debt. I go to a clownshit UG and pay $50k total, leaving me with $250k to pay off school at sticker.

Final scorecard:
Him: $150k debt, SCHOLARLY education
Me: NOENRICHMENT, but debt-free

If you want to say that avoiding "soulless and mercenary and ick" is worth $150k, fine, but I don't think most people would agree with you.

Also, it seems to require that you decide on law school at age 17, which is neither common nor advisable.


Not common, but definitely advisable for someone with an interest in the area as it allows long-term planning for maximum efficiency.

cotiger wrote:Eh, my impression of TLS is not so much bloodthirsty. More just conservative and looking for stability at a high income level. If they were really interested in $$$ they probably wouldn't be going into law.


Being primarily concerned with $$$ covers everyone from the "bloodthirsty" to those people who are hyper-focused on conservative financial development and high-income stability.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:40 am

PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to make it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?


FYI, this bro just dropped a fucking FLAWLESS Bluebook citation into a TLS screed at 1 AM.

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buddyt
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby buddyt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:41 am

cotiger wrote:I guess it just comes down to a fundamentally different view of the purpose of higher education. To me, school is primarily about broadening your perspectives and sharpening your critical thinking skills. The point is to develop yourself as a person, not just as a job applicant.

Probably this. I couldn't care less about broadening perspectives and sharpening critical thinking skills, and I think school should be used to better one's financial situation, so agree to disagree there. But,
cotiger wrote:If your primary motivation is to maximize income in your life, you're probably going to have an unsatisfactory time (unless you are a. one of those super money driven people and thus are not going to be an accountant or b. are driven by an extreme desire for stability)

I don't see how the second option leads to an unsatisfactory time. I want to make money for the financial stability of my family, so I can take them on nice vacations with some frequency, so my kids will be able to do club sports or take dance lessons if they want, so I can buy them an instrument if they want to learn one, etc. and I don't want to have to worry about whether I have enough money to do so. If anything, I think those are the kinds of things that bring happiness (a "satisfactory time"), but the reality is you gotta have money to be able to do them.
Last edited by buddyt on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:43 am

cotiger wrote:I guess it just comes down to a fundamentally different view of the purpose of higher education. To me, school is primarily about broadening your perspectives and sharpening your critical thinking skills. The point is to develop yourself as a person, not just as a job applicant.


Put an exact dollar amount on this. Or better yet, put a number of years of 60-hour weeks to come home to a 1BR in fucking Staten Island on it.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:56 am

PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to metake it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?

W
I don't have time to respond in depth but I can't believe that you used the word " colored." There are many reason minority lawyers succeed and last in biglaw and assuming they are mostly poors is offensive. That article sounds flawed, at the very least.

Good luck with your plan to simply last 4-5 years at a biglaw job. I hope it all works out for you. People do get fired for various reasons, cost cutting bigging a main reason for stealth layoffs. Also doing bad work will get you out the door, maybe slowly but not that slow because no one wants to work with you.

I don't know if most people hang around until they've paid their debt. Most people can really only take biglaw for a few years. I think most people stay until they have skills and connections to get a better job for themselves.

Note: a significant number of biglaw lawyers don't have any debt. So you can't correlate the debt with salary being the reason for how long people stay. People say they only do biglaw for the money to pay loans- but other people just want status and to work on the most complicated deals. You can only get certain work in biglaw. So there are other incentives besides debt repayment.

Big law burnout is a huge factor. So huge that attrition is built into the hiring model. Don't underestimate that factor until you've worked it a few years.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby snagglepuss » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:05 am

NYstate wrote:
PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to metake it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?

W
I don't have time to respond in depth but I can't believe that you used the word " colored." There are many reason minority lawyers succeed and last in biglaw and assuming they are mostly poors is offensive. That article sounds flawed, at the very least.
...

I don't think PepperJack meant anything by his choice of term nor do I think he was making assumptions about blacks/people of color being poor. He was paraphrasing logic that he never claimed as his own. Maybe the listed citation used "colored".

Also,
In 2008 Carla Sims, communications director for the NAACP in Washington DC, said "the term 'colored' is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word 'colored' because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It's outdated and antiquated but not offensive.

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cotiger
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:36 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Show your work. Assume both of us have $300k to spend on our education and both of us were paying sticker somewhere. He spends $200k copping dat intellectual rigor and has $100k left for law school, so he racks up say $150k or so in debt. I go to a clownshit UG and pay $50k total, leaving me with $250k to pay off school at sticker.

Final scorecard:
Him: $150k debt, SCHOLARLY education
Me: NOENRICHMENT, but debt-free

If you want to say that avoiding "soulless and mercenary and ick" is worth $150k, fine, but I don't think most people would agree with you.


But as was mentioned before, this scenario is usually not the actual situation. If my parents were like, "here's $300k, go to town," then sure, ex ante I might choose Texas over Middlebury and save the $150k. (My choice would be go to Wesleyan with DAT MERIT SCHOLLY.) But as I think you can relate, there's usually not just some designated money pot. Parents typically just pay for the school you go to. You're probably not getting extra dough for grad school just because you went to a cheaper UG.

But even if we take your example of having $300k to spend on educational expenses, you're only spending >$100k for grad school if you end up going to law school or med school, something which the vast majority of people don't end up doing. At that point, the rational move would be to go to whichever UG you want to. As long as your likelihood of going to law school is 40% or less ($250k*.4=$100k expected expense), then you debtlessly maximize your psychic benefit by going to whatever UG you want. 40% likelihood of going to law school, btw, is waaaay high. You are an extreme outlier.

Also, there's a huge difference between going to a good state school like Texas and going to your recommended "clownshit" school like say West Texas State. At any of the good flagship state schools you absolutely can get that SCHOLARLY education. At that point, choosing between Texas and Middlebury comes down to if your family can afford it. If they can (and you have that magical $300k), then you should go wherever want.

For clarification, what I was referring to as mercenary and soulless and ick was the idea of intentionally going to West Texas State and picking a major with the sole thought of boosting GPA for future law school apps.

Mono wrote:
cotiger wrote:Eh, my impression of TLS is not so much bloodthirsty. More just conservative and looking for stability at a high income level. If they were really interested in $$$ they probably wouldn't be going into law.


Being primarily concerned with $$$ covers everyone from the "bloodthirsty" to those people who are hyper-focused on conservative financial development and high-income stability.


Yeah, I suppose you're right.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:39 am

buddyt wrote:
cotiger wrote:If your primary motivation is to maximize income in your life, you're probably going to have an unsatisfactory time (unless you are a. one of those super money driven people and thus are not going to be an accountant or b. are driven by an extreme desire for stability)

I don't see how the second option leads to an unsatisfactory time. I want to make money for the financial stability of my family, so I can take them on nice vacations with some frequency, so my kids will be able to do club sports or take dance lessons if they want, so I can buy them an instrument if they want to learn one, etc. and I don't want to have to worry about whether I have enough money to do so. If anything, I think those are the kinds of things that bring happiness (a "satisfactory time"), but the reality is you gotta have money to be able to do them.


I said that if the second option was super important to you, then you might be very happy with that accounting (or other uninteresting but predictable) degree.

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cotiger
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:57 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
cotiger wrote:I guess it just comes down to a fundamentally different view of the purpose of higher education. To me, school is primarily about broadening your perspectives and sharpening your critical thinking skills. The point is to develop yourself as a person, not just as a job applicant.


Put an exact dollar amount on this. Or better yet, put a number of years of 60-hour weeks to come home to a 1BR in fucking Staten Island on it.


You mean how much more would I pay for a history major from Middlebury than an accounting degree from West Texas State? Personally? Lots and lots of monies. Even if we bump it up to accounting at UT, I would still pay lots of money to avoid to that.

Most importantly, the idea that said history major from Middlebury is not going to be able to find a decent job is just incorrect.

PS. Econ is really awesome. If you're that concerned with "employable" majors, go to that fancy LAC and get an econ degree. Best of both worlds. Though LOL at econ providing specific job skills (except possible advanced data analysis, which most econ majors apparently don't require). Econ is good because it "broadens your perspectives and sharpens your critical thinking skills," not because it actually teaches you much useful specific knowledge.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:28 am

Where does this idea you get a more enriching education at a small 40K liberal arts college come from? I thought this forum learned a long time ago that price =/= educational quality and that higher ed marketing pitches were bullshit?

If you are a dumb kid who wants to spend college doing jello shots then it's not going to matter whether you go to Middlebury or Middle State, and I'm sure there are plenty of those types of people at either.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Otunga » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:40 am

cotiger wrote:
buddyt wrote:
cotiger wrote:Doing something purely for the money is depressing and lame and will not lead to a satisfying life unless you are one of those (relatively rare IMO) people who get their primary thrills from raking in the dough.

I agree, but you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the bills, and the right degree can help you do that. Paying tens of thousands a year just for DAT RIGOROUS INTELLECTUAL STIMULATION seems silly to me, unless you've got time/money to burn and some other way to pay the bills.


You don't need to have an accounting degree to be able to pay the bills. There are all kinds of things you can do out there in the world. There are very few degrees where you actually learn shit that you'll use in a job. Sometimes it feels like TLSers think that the only jobs that exist are those that you can get a UG degree in.

I guess it just comes down to a fundamentally different view of the purpose of higher education. To me, school is primarily about broadening your perspectives and sharpening your critical thinking skills. The point is to develop yourself as a person, not just as a job applicant.

ETA:

This.
There's a large difference between paying the bills and maximizing income.

If your primary motivation is to maximize income in your life, you're probably going to have an unsatisfactory time (unless you are a. one of those super money driven people and thus are not going to be an accountant or b. are driven by an extreme desire for stability)


I agree that that's the fundamental purpose. However, it's difficult to justify anyone who believes in that purpose to attend college that's going to accrue significant debt along the way. Since if you really do believe in that purpose, then odds are you're going to major in a liberal arts degree that renders you incapable of paying back your debt at any comfortable level. If you get intellectual fulfillment from accounting, then all the power to you. I just don't think that's a common case. (However, I have heard that computer science is a great practical alternative for someone who likes to study philosophy (I majored in philosophy) and that many do get intellectual fulfillment from it.)

What I suggest to a friend of mine in community college is to major in something practical and minor in something intellectually enriching if it interests him. True, one could just to go all-in on the intellectually enriching liberal arts degree if one strongly believes one wants grad school or professional school, but as someone who applied to graduate school in philosophy and ultimately elected not to attend, I don't think that's a reasonable belief for most people. How can you REALLY know you want to go on and study the same subject your entire life, do often unfulfilling research in the field due to institutional pressure, and teach that subject to others? Additionally, there are hardly ANY jobs in the humanities, forget good tenured professorships - just directly using your degree at a job is a rarity. But there is a bright side here relative to choosing law school: If you decide grad school isn't for you, you can usually get out of it with no debt (due to a fully funded degree). Law school, on the other hand, usually leaves you in a good amount of debt if you decide it isn't for you.

The problem for the liberal arts major isn't their potential grad school debt, then, but the UG debt they accrue. If it's at all significant, I don't see how it's reasonable for one to take on that debt given that the odds are against them that they'll be able to pay it back in any efficient manner. So suggesting for people to major in a practical thing and minor in the liberal arts thing is the best course to me. They should only major solely in the liberal arts for any of the following reasons or a combination of them: If they're somehow sufficiently certain that they want grad school, if they leave UG with very little debt, or if they're sufficiently certain they want law school (something I think that's easier to form a sound judgment about given the vast amount of information out there about law school relative to the esoteric nature of grad school).

By the way, for disclosure, I went to community college and saved enough to pay for most of that (wicked cheap), then to a state school for 2 years where my parents contributed a good amount to that tuition, and so I have some student debt but not a lot. I'm not sure I agree with the assumption that an elite private education is necessarily more enriching than a state school education. My state school had a fairly strong department (ranked well in the Philosophical Gourmet!) and sometimes it's the department that counts for more and not the school as a whole.

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PepperJack
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby PepperJack » Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:57 pm

NYstate wrote:
PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to metake it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?

W
I don't have time to respond in depth but I can't believe that you used the word " colored." There are many reason minority lawyers succeed and last in biglaw and assuming they are mostly poors is offensive. That article sounds flawed, at the very least.

Good luck with your plan to simply last 4-5 years at a biglaw job. I hope it all works out for you. People do get fired for various reasons, cost cutting bigging a main reason for stealth layoffs. Also doing bad work will get you out the door, maybe slowly but not that slow because no one wants to work with you.

I don't know if most people hang around until they've paid their debt. Most people can really only take biglaw for a few years. I think most people stay until they have skills and connections to get a better job for themselves.

Note: a significant number of biglaw lawyers don't have any debt. So you can't correlate the debt with salary being the reason for how long people stay. People say they only do biglaw for the money to pay loans- but other people just want status and to work on the most complicated deals. You can only get certain work in biglaw. So there are other incentives besides debt repayment.

Big law burnout is a huge factor. So huge that attrition is built into the hiring model. Don't underestimate that factor until you've worked it a few years.

Colored was a poor word choice, and it was 2:38 AM. I don't mean anything by it. I'm just saying that when this study was done, black law students earned more on average than white law students who worked in private practice. It's also no secret that there is a massive income discrepancy between the races. This holds true, on average, amongst law students. As the article mentions black law students are much likelier to have to finance their own legal education. All I was saying is that this fact was pointed to as the explanation for why black law grads earn more in private practice. Another factor is that 40% of blacks take the bar in 5 states that all pay $145k+ for market big law, so it's possible that factor plays a role too. This is off topic, though, and my general point in mentioning blacks in general was to substantiate my point that people work in big law for as long as they feel they need to.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:27 pm

PepperJack wrote:
NYstate wrote:
PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to metake it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?

W
I don't have time to respond in depth but I can't believe that you used the word " colored." There are many reason minority lawyers succeed and last in biglaw and assuming they are mostly poors is offensive. That article sounds flawed, at the very least.

Good luck with your plan to simply last 4-5 years at a biglaw job. I hope it all works out for you. People do get fired for various reasons, cost cutting bigging a main reason for stealth layoffs. Also doing bad work will get you out the door, maybe slowly but not that slow because no one wants to work with you.

I don't know if most people hang around until they've paid their debt. Most people can really only take biglaw for a few years. I think most people stay until they have skills and connections to get a better job for themselves.

Note: a significant number of biglaw lawyers don't have any debt. So you can't correlate the debt with salary being the reason for how long people stay. People say they only do biglaw for the money to pay loans- but other people just want status and to work on the most complicated deals. You can only get certain work in biglaw. So there are other incentives besides debt repayment.

Big law burnout is a huge factor. So huge that attrition is built into the hiring model. Don't underestimate that factor until you've worked it a few years.

Colored was a poor word choice, and it was 2:38 AM. I don't mean anything by it. I'm just saying that when this study was done, black law students earned more on average than white law students who worked in private practice. It's also no secret that there is a massive income discrepancy between the races. This holds true, on average, amongst law students. As the article mentions black law students are much likelier to have to finance their own legal education. All I was saying is that this fact was pointed to as the explanation for why black law grads earn more in private practice. Another factor is that 40% of blacks take the bar in 5 states that all pay $145k+ for market big law, so it's possible that factor plays a role too. This is off topic, though, and my general point in mentioning blacks in general was to substantiate my point that people work in big law for as long as they feel they need to.


Why is that point important? I'm just saying don't underestimate the exhaustion factor. People do leave because they can't take it. And people lose jobs.

And some people do stay in biglaw for a number of reasons other than to repay their massive debt they undertook to finance their education. Maybe they have no good exit option but they are very good at biglaw. Maybe they actually enjoy their job.


Individual decisions are more complex than simply staying in biglaw until your loans are paid.

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cotiger
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:33 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Where does this idea you get a more enriching education at a small 40K liberal arts college come from? I thought this forum learned a long time ago that price =/= educational quality and that higher ed marketing pitches were bullshit?


Not saying that price=educational quality. You can have a great educational experience at a flagship public. I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior. In basically every area, UChicago is going to be a much better place for that bright young kid to be than Chicago State.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:42 pm

cotiger wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Where does this idea you get a more enriching education at a small 40K liberal arts college come from? I thought this forum learned a long time ago that price =/= educational quality and that higher ed marketing pitches were bullshit?


Not saying that price=educational quality. You can have a great educational experience at a flagship public. I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior. In basically every area, UChicago is going to be a much better place for that bright young kid to be than Chicago State.


UChicago is a relatively large university though, and it has a clear leg up in job placement over a "clownshit" UG, just like Berkeley or Michigan.

It's the 40K LACs in the middle of nowhere that drive tuition (or worse, the expensive private schools in urban areas like Fordham/BC/GW/NYU), where I'm not sure that the difference in educational quality is any more pronounced. A smart kid at a 40,000 person state school is not going to have trouble finding an intellectual challenge if they want it.

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cotiger
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:57 pm

Otunga wrote:I agree that that's the fundamental purpose. However, it's difficult to justify anyone who believes in that purpose to attend college that's going to accrue significant debt along the way. Since if you really do believe in that purpose, then odds are you're going to major in a liberal arts degree that renders you incapable of paying back your debt at any comfortable level.


I agree that if you have to take out $200k in loans, then it doesn't make sense to go to a fancy private school because you can have great experiences at top public schools. Thus: "choosing between Texas and Middlebury comes down to if your family can afford it. If they can (and you have that magical $300k), then you should go wherever want."


Otunga wrote:What I suggest to a friend of mine in community college is to major in something practical and minor in something intellectually enriching if it interests him. True, one could just to go all-in on the intellectually enriching liberal arts degree if one strongly believes one wants grad school or professional school, but as someone who applied to graduate school in philosophy and ultimately elected not to attend, I don't think that's a reasonable belief for most people. How can you REALLY know you want to go on and study the same subject your entire life, do often unfulfilling research in the field due to institutional pressure, and teach that subject to others? Additionally, there are hardly ANY jobs in the humanities, forget good tenured professorships - just directly using your degree at a job is a rarity.


You're making the same mistake as those who say get a "practical" degree in thinking that the purpose of these degrees is to prepare you for a specific job.

For instance, a close friend of mine who majored in PoliSci eventually wants to be a sports broadcaster. After graduating, he became the play-by-play broadcaster for a CHL team and is now working at a AAA affiliate in media relations and as a broadcast assistant.

Another close friend who majored in Sociology eventually wants to start a chain of hostels. She worked in Bangkok for a tour company there and now works for Hostelling International.

Sure, I guess they could have majored in "practical" areas such as Sports Communications and Hotel Management (and gone to schools that offer those kinds of majors), but a) that wouldn't have actually benefitted their careers, and b) they would have been miserable and bored while doing it.

For smart kids, the point of UG is not to acquire specific skills. The focus on direct applicability of a major to a career just demonstrates a lack of imagination, IMO.
Last edited by cotiger on Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:09 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
cotiger wrote:Not saying that price=educational quality. You can have a great educational experience at a flagship public. I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior. In basically every area, UChicago is going to be a much better place for that bright young kid to be than Chicago State.


UChicago is a relatively large university though, and it has a clear leg up in job placement over a "clownshit" UG, just like Berkeley or Michigan.

It's the 40K LACs in the middle of nowhere that drive tuition (or worse, the expensive private schools in urban areas like Fordham/BC/GW/NYU), where I'm not sure that the difference in educational quality is any more pronounced. A smart kid at a 40,000 person state school is not going to have trouble finding an intellectual challenge if they want it.


So are you trying to say that you think that the educational experience at Chicago State is going to be the same as at Williams? And that Williams won't tend to help you succeed both personally and professionally more than ChiState will? If so, we're just going to have to agree to disagree because I think that's crazytown.

If you're just saying that good public schools can provide you with a good education too, then I have stated multiple times that I agree with that.

"Placement" is a weird concept to use wrt UG, IMO. It isn't law school. There's not one area that schools feed to where companies say "We'll take top 20% at X school, 40% at Y, and 75% at Z." It's much more individualized and idiosyncratic.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby sublime » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:16 pm

..

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PepperJack
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby PepperJack » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:22 pm

NYstate wrote:
PepperJack wrote:
NYstate wrote:
PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to metake it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?

W
I don't have time to respond in depth but I can't believe that you used the word " colored." There are many reason minority lawyers succeed and last in biglaw and assuming they are mostly poors is offensive. That article sounds flawed, at the very least.

Good luck with your plan to simply last 4-5 years at a biglaw job. I hope it all works out for you. People do get fired for various reasons, cost cutting bigging a main reason for stealth layoffs. Also doing bad work will get you out the door, maybe slowly but not that slow because no one wants to work with you.

I don't know if most people hang around until they've paid their debt. Most people can really only take biglaw for a few years. I think most people stay until they have skills and connections to get a better job for themselves.

Note: a significant number of biglaw lawyers don't have any debt. So you can't correlate the debt with salary being the reason for how long people stay. People say they only do biglaw for the money to pay loans- but other people just want status and to work on the most complicated deals. You can only get certain work in biglaw. So there are other incentives besides debt repayment.

Big law burnout is a huge factor. So huge that attrition is built into the hiring model. Don't underestimate that factor until you've worked it a few years.

Colored was a poor word choice, and it was 2:38 AM. I don't mean anything by it. I'm just saying that when this study was done, black law students earned more on average than white law students who worked in private practice. It's also no secret that there is a massive income discrepancy between the races. This holds true, on average, amongst law students. As the article mentions black law students are much likelier to have to finance their own legal education. All I was saying is that this fact was pointed to as the explanation for why black law grads earn more in private practice. Another factor is that 40% of blacks take the bar in 5 states that all pay $145k+ for market big law, so it's possible that factor plays a role too. This is off topic, though, and my general point in mentioning blacks in general was to substantiate my point that people work in big law for as long as they feel they need to.


Why is that point important? I'm just saying don't underestimate the exhaustion factor. People do leave because they can't take it. And people lose jobs.

And some people do stay in biglaw for a number of reasons other than to repay their massive debt they undertook to finance their education. Maybe they have no good exit option but they are very good at biglaw. Maybe they actually enjoy their job.


Individual decisions are more complex than simply staying in biglaw until your loans are paid.

My point was - if you don't get fired from big law, the average person stays in there at least until their loans are paid off as this data supports.

Of course, burn out was possible. However, a big part of burn out is motivation and how much you care. Just look at the rate of burn out amongst professional athletes before and after they're paid. Not every athlete who gets paid burns out, but they're more likely to burn out after they're paid.

I also don't agree that a significant percentage of people stay in big law only because they enjoy it. I think it's largely based around the compensation. This is not to say that no one enjoys big law. It is to say if we removed money from the equation, would more than a negligible number of attorneys opt to work 3000 hours per year as opposed to 1500 hours per year? Even if the work were more enjoyable at the 3000 hour job, it seems rational to conclude that most people would choose the 1500 hour job (particularly once their 30's and are more likely to have small children).

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Otunga » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:54 pm

cotiger wrote:
Otunga wrote:I agree that that's the fundamental purpose. However, it's difficult to justify anyone who believes in that purpose to attend college that's going to accrue significant debt along the way. Since if you really do believe in that purpose, then odds are you're going to major in a liberal arts degree that renders you incapable of paying back your debt at any comfortable level.


I agree that if you have to take out $200k in loans, then it doesn't make sense to go to a fancy private school because you can have great experiences at top public schools. Thus: "choosing between Texas and Middlebury comes down to if your family can afford it. If they can (and you have that magical $300k), then you should go wherever want."


Otunga wrote:What I suggest to a friend of mine in community college is to major in something practical and minor in something intellectually enriching if it interests him. True, one could just to go all-in on the intellectually enriching liberal arts degree if one strongly believes one wants grad school or professional school, but as someone who applied to graduate school in philosophy and ultimately elected not to attend, I don't think that's a reasonable belief for most people. How can you REALLY know you want to go on and study the same subject your entire life, do often unfulfilling research in the field due to institutional pressure, and teach that subject to others? Additionally, there are hardly ANY jobs in the humanities, forget good tenured professorships - just directly using your degree at a job is a rarity.


You're making the same mistake as those who say get a "practical" degree in thinking that the purpose of these degrees is to prepare you for a specific job.

For instance, a close friend of mine who majored in PoliSci eventually wants to be a sports broadcaster. After graduating, he became the play-by-play broadcaster for a CHL team and is now working at a AAA affiliate in media relations and as a broadcast assistant.

Another close friend who majored in Sociology eventually wants to start a chain of hostels. She worked in Bangkok for a tour company there and now works for Hostelling International.

Sure, I guess they could have majored in "practical" areas such as Sports Communications and Hotel Management (and gone to schools that offer those kinds of majors), but a) that wouldn't have actually benefitted their careers, and b) they would have been miserable and bored while doing it.

For smart kids, the point of UG is not to acquire specific skills. The focus on direct applicability of a major to a career just demonstrates a lack of imagination, IMO.


That's great that they did that. I just doubt most people acquire similar success in similar positions. Whatever the person majors in, clearly it's advisable for them to get direct experience in their field of choice before they graduate.

On the other point, I'm reconsidering it and I'm not sure if someone with the magical amount of money should necessarily go to a private school and major in whatever given the two choices. I think that's a waste of money if they lack direction. Personally, I would rather have the money if I could and just do well at the state school (assuming it's a good state school).

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:11 am

Otunga wrote:That's great that they did that. I just doubt most people acquire similar success in similar positions. Whatever the person majors in, clearly it's advisable for them to get direct experience in their field of choice before they graduate.


What exactly do you imagine that humanities majors do then? In my experience, the types of paths I described are pretty typical. People who major in history are well aware that there is no such thing as a history job and plan their summers to explore fields that they might be interested in. The fact that there's not the obvious or proscribed job to do after graduation just means that they typically take a little longer to really get going, not that they are ultimately unsuccessful.

Otunga wrote:On the other point, I'm reconsidering it and I'm not sure if someone with the magical amount of money should necessarily go to a private school and major in whatever given the two choices. I think that's a waste of money if they lack direction. Personally, I would rather have the money if I could and just do well at the state school (assuming it's a good state school).


Right, that's why I said before that ex-ante I would go to UT and pocket the $150k instead of go to Middlebury. The thing is, that's not typically how parents with means go about funding education. They pay for the school you go to; they don't just hand you a check for $200k to spend as you will. Because of that, it makes most sense for the student to just go to whatever school they like best (whether it's the good state school or the fancy LAC).

Also, I would just like to point out again that the main idea I am arguing against is that intentionally going to a shit school and taking a stupid major just to boost GPA and minimize debt for a potential law school app is in any way a good call. There is a value to DAT INTELLECTUAL EXPERIENCE, and if dat experience includes a humanities degree, it doesn't necessarily screw you over like is often portrayed on TLS (unless, of course, that humanities degree is from Clownshit U).

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby TatteredDignity » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:55 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
PepperJack wrote:I don't know if I'd consider big law burn out to big of a factor. Likely, these people leave once their debts are paid off and they don't want to work that much. A small number of female attorneys plan on just working till their loans are paid off, and they get married. I think once the difference between 200k and 100k isn't life changing, people will opt for the quality of life of a 40 hour week. A study I read found the average income of black attorneys in private practice from a T-10 school was substantially higher a few years out from LS than for whites. See David L. Chambers, Richard O. Lempert & Terry K. Adams, Michigan’s Minority Graduates in Practice: The River Runs Through Law School, 25 Law. & Soc. Inquiry 395, 459 (2000). The logic is that because colored students are more likely to be from disadvantaged families, and require more loans, they're more likely to stay in big law as long as possible.

I would love to hear about the chances of getting fired. I enjoy working hard, if I like what I'm doing and am in a good work environment. Practically, as long as I make it 4-5 years my debt is paid off. Is it low odds - high odds to make it that long? Are there statistics of likelihood of getting laid off year by year?


FYI, this bro just dropped a fucking FLAWLESS Bluebook citation into a TLS screed at 1 AM.


Nope.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Instinctive » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:41 pm

cotiger wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Where does this idea you get a more enriching education at a small 40K liberal arts college come from? I thought this forum learned a long time ago that price =/= educational quality and that higher ed marketing pitches were bullshit?


Not saying that price=educational quality. You can have a great educational experience at a flagship public. I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior. In basically every area, UChicago is going to be a much better place for that bright young kid to be than Chicago State.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a horrible comparison to be using? Isn't the issue going to be more like UChicago vs UIUC?

Or something like SMU vs UTexas?

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby cotiger » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:44 pm

Instinctive wrote:
cotiger wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:Where does this idea you get a more enriching education at a small 40K liberal arts college come from? I thought this forum learned a long time ago that price =/= educational quality and that higher ed marketing pitches were bullshit?


Not saying that price=educational quality. You can have a great educational experience at a flagship public. I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior. In basically every area, UChicago is going to be a much better place for that bright young kid to be than Chicago State.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a horrible comparison to be using? Isn't the issue going to be more like UChicago vs UIUC?

Or something like SMU vs UTexas?


Ahem.
I was responding to Mono's suggestion that going to a "clownshit" UG would be a good decision for an intelligent high school senior.

The same student putting the same amount of work into the same class is going to get the same grade at basically any two decent or better schools. Mono's suggestion (only about 30% in jest, IMO) was that it would be preferable to go to one of the super shitty schools where putting the same effort into the same class would guarantee you a higher grade in order to ensure a 3.9+ and therefore increase your chances of doing well on law school apps.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:45 pm

A state school that's even half-decent is still a better choice than every school besides HYPSMC. If I lived in Chicago, I would send my kid to UIUC over UChi in a heartbeat. And UChi isn't even close to the most flagrant examples of money sinkholes.

cotiger wrote:The same student putting the same amount of work into the same class is going to get the same grade at basically any two decent or better schools.


Huh? Bucknell and Princeton are two half-decent schools; you really think the odds of the same student getting an A at each are the same?

Mono's suggestion (only about 30% in jest, IMO) was that it would be preferable to go to one of the super shitty schools where putting the same effort into the same class would guarantee you a higher grade in order to ensure a 3.9+ and therefore increase your chances of doing well on law school apps.


This suggestion was made 0% in jest, and I still have not heard a reason as to why it wouldn't be the credited plan.




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