How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

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muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:02 pm

NYstate wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100.


The only reason to make 401k contributions while you have outstanding debt is if you're presuming a higher ROI than the interest rates on your loans (~8%). I would argue, in the current economic situation, that's way too optimistic over a period of three-four years. So no, I would say no one with student debt should be making 401k contributions.

I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio.


You could get a studio, you could move to Queens, or Harlem (assuming you aren't paranoid). Everyone else has assumed they will live in a bad location and/or a tiny place--it's part of being fiscally responsible when you have a net worth in the negative six figures.

I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends


This is presumably a one-time expense and should cost no more than $4k, although you could do it pretty easily for $2.5-3k.

traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast)


This is not something anyone has to do. Feel free to decline a cross-country trip on account of you being broke. Or have fewer friends.

and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.


No one is obligated to do this either. Your choice, but I'm presuming the loan people will be relatively unsympathetic to your explanation that it was such a tough week you absolutely had to get tanked.

Look, it's generally agreed the first few months you'll be restricted, due in part to some of the things you mentioned. But when you take home a little over $7,500 a month, this shouldn't be that hard. Let's assume $2k for your living situation. Are you telling me that if you made $4k payments, you couldn't manage to live on $1,500 left over for everything else? This post is emblematic of a problem so many young associates with six-figure debt seem to have: They can't figure out how to pay it back while still living the upper-middle class lifestyle they had always assumed was just part of being a lawyer. You know, it's okay, when you have so much debt, to live like you're *gulp* POOR. But the people here aren't even assuming that. They're asking you to live on, what, $50k? And that's only for three years! If you've gotten that Biglaw job, you could presumably have six figures for several decades, even if you burn out fast.

Maybe every post regarding debt should have the caveat "assuming you're willing to put off the Gatsby life until you're at least 30." It should be self-evident at this point, but no one seems to get it.


Oh fuck you. People need to have some quality to life or else what is the point. We aren't talking about a "Gatsby" life which not even the highest paid associate is going to touch. We are talking about a normal,middle class life, which includes having friends who want you to attend major life events and a girlfriend who you help support and want to go out with.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you are more than willing to moralize and condemn a person who wants to minimally enjoy life. There must be something wrong with you. You have no reason to be so judgmental. He is doing well living within his means and keeping a balance. I know happiness is very low on your scale of values compared to penny- pinching debt repayment at the sacrifice of anything else.

My view is that his way of living is sustainable over the next five years. Living like a miserly hermit is hard to maintain over 5 years. It is also a stupid way to live for very long. Think of it as a reality check on your theoretical budget from your hypothetical job.


You sounds like such an entitled prick. How is a 75k lifestyle (not including your girlfriends salary) after taxes and after loan payments anything other then upper middle class. and you had 170k in loans. Get out of here you should be condemned for trolling.

The majority of Americans live like "miserly hermets" for far longer than 5 years, try their whole lives. You poor baby for having to put up with it for 3 or so while paying off an insane amount of debt you CHOSE freely to take for a shot at making millions. Honestly I hope people are realizing how pathetic and ENTITLED, it's the only word I can think of, you sound.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:08 pm

Lincoln wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Bro, you're living a pretty luxurious lifestyle for your first year out of law school. Just saying

75k a year after taxes after 10k in your 401k and after loan payments, man that's a hard lifestyle I can see how you just barely scrape by I don't know how all those ppl living on NYC on only 50k a year salary pretax do it. Maybe if you didn't go to all five weddings and cut back from going out EVERY weekend for your social life to every other week and were somewhat thrifty buying only one or two suits and some discount clothes you could put more towards your loans...

If anything you're the perfect example of someone sounding overly entitled and proof of how awesome a big law job can be. I have plenty of hardworking friends fresh out of college/ grad schools who would kill for that kind of money.


Unless you have experienced this yourself, you should cut down on the snark. I've lived in NYC on $50k pre-tax, but I sure as hell didn't have a $2-3,000 monthly loan payment to deal with. Earls admits (s)he could pay a bit more, depending on rent, 401(k), etc., but her/his budget is not that far off.

Edited for gender neutrality.


Well I haven't experienced living on 50k salary pretax, but I've definitely lived a college lifestyle for four years where I was spending nowhere near that amount and have friends now living off of 20-40k at most pretax. AFTER his loan payments he's dealing with 75k, he could put 25k more a year towards his loan and have 50k post tax, thus having a beter lifestyle than your 50k pre-tax. His budget isn't off for someone again:
1. spending thousands on a new wardrobe
2. living in an EXPENSIVE and nice apartment without having their partner split the bill
3. Traveling to FIVE weddings all not on the East Coast in one year
4. going out EVERY weekend.

and they're still paying off 170k in debt and contributing to a 401k and had 10k paid forward for the few weeks before in the summer (don't most firms pay for reallocation and bar studying these days also)...

AND that's not including any bonuses this first year...

Fuck you're right Biglaw sounds awful.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri May 24, 2013 12:23 pm

muskies970 wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Bro, you're living a pretty luxurious lifestyle for your first year out of law school. Just saying

75k a year after taxes after 10k in your 401k and after loan payments, man that's a hard lifestyle I can see how you just barely scrape by I don't know how all those ppl living on NYC on only 50k a year salary pretax do it. Maybe if you didn't go to all five weddings and cut back from going out EVERY weekend for your social life to every other week and were somewhat thrifty buying only one or two suits and some discount clothes you could put more towards your loans...

If anything you're the perfect example of someone sounding overly entitled and proof of how awesome a big law job can be. I have plenty of hardworking friends fresh out of college/ grad schools who would kill for that kind of money.


Unless you have experienced this yourself, you should cut down on the snark. I've lived in NYC on $50k pre-tax, but I sure as hell didn't have a $2-3,000 monthly loan payment to deal with. Earls admits (s)he could pay a bit more, depending on rent, 401(k), etc., but her/his budget is not that far off.

Edited for gender neutrality.


Well I haven't experienced living on 50k salary pretax, but I've definitely lived a college lifestyle for four years where I was spending nowhere near that amount and have friends now living off of 20-40k at most pretax. AFTER his loan payments he's dealing with 75k, he could put 25k more a year towards his loan and have 50k post tax, thus having a beter lifestyle than your 50k pre-tax. His budget isn't off for someone again:
1. spending thousands on a new wardrobe
2. living in an EXPENSIVE and nice apartment without having their partner split the bill
3. Traveling to FIVE weddings all not on the East Coast in one year
4. going out EVERY weekend.

and they're still paying off 170k in debt and contributing to a 401k and had 10k paid forward for the few weeks before in the summer (don't most firms pay for reallocation and bar studying these days also)...

AND that's not including any bonuses this first year...

Fuck you're right Biglaw sounds awful.


LOL @ you for thinking that "living a college lifestyle" is even remotely similar to living as an entry-level professional in a major/expensive metro.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:25 pm

cusenation wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Bro, you're living a pretty luxurious lifestyle for your first year out of law school. Just saying

75k a year after taxes after 10k in your 401k and after loan payments, man that's a hard lifestyle I can see how you just barely scrape by I don't know how all those ppl living on NYC on only 50k a year salary pretax do it. Maybe if you didn't go to all five weddings and cut back from going out EVERY weekend for your social life to every other week and were somewhat thrifty buying only one or two suits and some discount clothes you could put more towards your loans...

If anything you're the perfect example of someone sounding overly entitled and proof of how awesome a big law job can be. I have plenty of hardworking friends fresh out of college/ grad schools who would kill for that kind of money.


Unless you have experienced this yourself, you should cut down on the snark. I've lived in NYC on $50k pre-tax, but I sure as hell didn't have a $2-3,000 monthly loan payment to deal with. Earls admits (s)he could pay a bit more, depending on rent, 401(k), etc., but her/his budget is not that far off.

Edited for gender neutrality.


Well I haven't experienced living on 50k salary pretax, but I've definitely lived a college lifestyle for four years where I was spending nowhere near that amount and have friends now living off of 20-40k at most pretax. AFTER his loan payments he's dealing with 75k, he could put 25k more a year towards his loan and have 50k post tax, thus having a beter lifestyle than your 50k pre-tax. His budget isn't off for someone again:
1. spending thousands on a new wardrobe
2. living in an EXPENSIVE and nice apartment without having their partner split the bill
3. Traveling to FIVE weddings all not on the East Coast in one year
4. going out EVERY weekend.

and they're still paying off 170k in debt and contributing to a 401k and had 10k paid forward for the few weeks before in the summer (don't most firms pay for reallocation and bar studying these days also)...

AND that's not including any bonuses this first year...

Fuck you're right Biglaw sounds awful.


LOL @ you for thinking that "living a college lifestyle" is even remotely similar to living as an entry-level professional in a major/expensive metro.


You're right, I should clarify. I also lived in an expensive metro but instead of eating expensively I did the whole live on 150 a month in groceries, didn't go out every weekend racking up huge bar tabs, and didn't get to travel the country five times a year...

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Birdnals
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Birdnals » Fri May 24, 2013 12:28 pm

I don't get why you don't just have your parents pay for all this stuff. Don't you have any money?

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 12:28 pm

muskies970 wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100.


The only reason to make 401k contributions while you have outstanding debt is if you're presuming a higher ROI than the interest rates on your loans (~8%). I would argue, in the current economic situation, that's way too optimistic over a period of three-four years. So no, I would say no one with student debt should be making 401k contributions.

I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio.


You could get a studio, you could move to Queens, or Harlem (assuming you aren't paranoid). Everyone else has assumed they will live in a bad location and/or a tiny place--it's part of being fiscally responsible when you have a net worth in the negative six figures.

I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends


This is presumably a one-time expense and should cost no more than $4k, although you could do it pretty easily for $2.5-3k.

traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast)


This is not something anyone has to do. Feel free to decline a cross-country trip on account of you being broke. Or have fewer friends.

and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.


No one is obligated to do this either. Your choice, but I'm presuming the loan people will be relatively unsympathetic to your explanation that it was such a tough week you absolutely had to get tanked.

Look, it's generally agreed the first few months you'll be restricted, due in part to some of the things you mentioned. But when you take home a little over $7,500 a month, this shouldn't be that hard. Let's assume $2k for your living situation. Are you telling me that if you made $4k payments, you couldn't manage to live on $1,500 left over for everything else? This post is emblematic of a problem so many young associates with six-figure debt seem to have: They can't figure out how to pay it back while still living the upper-middle class lifestyle they had always assumed was just part of being a lawyer. You know, it's okay, when you have so much debt, to live like you're *gulp* POOR. But the people here aren't even assuming that. They're asking you to live on, what, $50k? And that's only for three years! If you've gotten that Biglaw job, you could presumably have six figures for several decades, even if you burn out fast.

Maybe every post regarding debt should have the caveat "assuming you're willing to put off the Gatsby life until you're at least 30." It should be self-evident at this point, but no one seems to get it.


Oh fuck you. People need to have some quality to life or else what is the point. We aren't talking about a "Gatsby" life which not even the highest paid associate is going to touch. We are talking about a normal,middle class life, which includes having friends who want you to attend major life events and a girlfriend who you help support and want to go out with.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you are more than willing to moralize and condemn a person who wants to minimally enjoy life. There must be something wrong with you. You have no reason to be so judgmental. He is doing well living within his means and keeping a balance. I know happiness is very low on your scale of values compared to penny- pinching debt repayment at the sacrifice of anything else.

My view is that his way of living is sustainable over the next five years. Living like a miserly hermit is hard to maintain over 5 years. It is also a stupid way to live for very long. Think of it as a reality check on your theoretical budget from your hypothetical job.


You sounds like such an entitled prick. How is a 75k lifestyle (not including your girlfriends salary) after taxes and after loan payments anything other then upper middle class. and you had 170k in loans. Get out of here you should be condemned for trolling.

The majority of Americans live like "miserly hermets" for far longer than 5 years, try their whole lives. You poor baby for having to put up with it for 3 or so while paying off an insane amount of debt you CHOSE freely to take for a shot at making millions. Honestly I hope people are realizing how pathetic and ENTITLED, it's the only word I can think of, you sound.



Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.

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untar614
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby untar614 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:31 pm

Yeah, I too appreciate what anyone post-grad can offer info-wise, but I do have some serious questions regarding the breakdown of finances to Earls.

160k after tax should be about 100k in NYC. Take out 10k for the advance, and that leaves you with 90k, which is 7500/month.
Regarding rent, where do you live where you are sharing a 1bedroom and still paying 2k/month? Looking at padmapper, I see plenty of places in northern Manhattan that are, while not huge, liveable for under 2k/month. Is your gf not paying anything toward rent at all?

Even so, if we assume 2k/month for that, then you have 5500/month left. If you make 3k/month in loan payments, you have 2500/month left to work with. Even in NYC, I can't imagine spending 500/month on food unless you insist on eating out every day. What is the breakdown of where all this is going? Because that's more than I live off now before paying rent. How much are you contributing to 401k/month? What exactly is the rest of the money going toward and how much?

Thanks.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri May 24, 2013 12:32 pm

muskies970 wrote:
cusenation wrote:LOL @ you for thinking that "living a college lifestyle" is even remotely similar to living as an entry-level professional in a major/expensive metro.

You're right, I should clarify. I also lived in an expensive metro but instead of eating expensively I did the whole live on 150 a month in groceries, didn't go out every weekend racking up huge bar tabs, and didn't get to travel the country five times a year...

I completely agree that going out every weekend and having fancy dinners is something that could be reduced. But a friend's wedding, especially if a close friend, isn't something u're gonna miss if you can help it. And his argument wasn't that he couldn't afford it or that he was poor or struggling to get by, it was that these sort of events come up and end up costing money, which makes it harder to stick to a payment plan you drafted as an 0L. There are a lot of "necessary luxuries" that accompany these types of positions. Dry cleaning service, wardrobe additions/tailoring, maid/cleaning service, nannies...Yes you could technically get by without them, but when you're as short on time as it is, they start to seem like they're essential.

The point is that there are a lot more expenditures than people think when they're making Excel spreadsheets as 0L's.

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Birdnals
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Birdnals » Fri May 24, 2013 12:36 pm

NYstate wrote:
Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Right, but you are acting like a law school education was any more difficult than spending those three years working your way up in the corporate world out of college to make it to that 50K pre-tax salary. And completely forgetting that after those loans are paid off in 3-10 years your income will (most likely)completely outpace the average American worker if you started in biglaw and will continue to out pace it for rest of your careers.

Nobody feels bad for the guy with the Yale degree who landed biglaw because he has to live the peasants life of having 50K of expendable income and doesn't get the models and bottles until he turns the crypt keeper's age of 30.

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jbagelboy
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 24, 2013 12:40 pm

muskies970 wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio.


You could get a studio, you could move to Queens, or Harlem (assuming you aren't paranoid). Everyone else has assumed they will live in a bad location and/or a tiny place--it's part of being fiscally responsible when you have a net worth in the negative six figures.

I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends


This is presumably a one-time expense and should cost no more than $4k, although you could do it pretty easily for $2.5-3k.

traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast)


This is not something anyone has to do. Feel free to decline a cross-country trip on account of you being broke. Or have fewer friends.

and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.


No one is obligated to do this either. Your choice, but I'm presuming the loan people will be relatively unsympathetic to your explanation that it was such a tough week you absolutely had to get tanked.

Look, it's generally agreed the first few months you'll be restricted, due in part to some of the things you mentioned. But when you take home a little over $7,500 a month, this shouldn't be that hard. Let's assume $2k for your living situation. Are you telling me that if you made $4k payments, you couldn't manage to live on $1,500 left over for everything else? This post is emblematic of a problem so many young associates with six-figure debt seem to have: They can't figure out how to pay it back while still living the upper-middle class lifestyle they had always assumed was just part of being a lawyer. You know, it's okay, when you have so much debt, to live like you're *gulp* POOR. But the people here aren't even assuming that. They're asking you to live on, what, $50k? And that's only for three years! If you've gotten that Biglaw job, you could presumably have six figures for several decades, even if you burn out fast.

Maybe every post regarding debt should have the caveat "assuming you're willing to put off the Gatsby life until you're at least 30." It should be self-evident at this point, but no one seems to get it.


Oh fuck you. People need to have some quality to life or else what is the point. We aren't talking about a "Gatsby" life which not even the highest paid associate is going to touch. We are talking about a normal,middle class life, which includes having friends who want you to attend major life events and a girlfriend who you help support and want to go out with.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you are more than willing to moralize and condemn a person who wants to minimally enjoy life. There must be something wrong with you. You have no reason to be so judgmental. He is doing well living within his means and keeping a balance. I know happiness is very low on your scale of values compared to penny- pinching debt repayment at the sacrifice of anything else.

My view is that his way of living is sustainable over the next five years. Living like a miserly hermit is hard to maintain over 5 years. It is also a stupid way to live for very long. Think of it as a reality check on your theoretical budget from your hypothetical job.


You sounds like such an entitled prick. How is a 75k lifestyle (not including your girlfriends salary) after taxes and after loan payments anything other then upper middle class. and you had 170k in loans. Get out of here you should be condemned for trolling.

The majority of Americans live like "miserly hermets" for far longer than 5 years, try their whole lives. You poor baby for having to put up with it for 3 or so while paying off an insane amount of debt you CHOSE freely to take for a shot at making millions. Honestly I hope people are realizing how pathetic and ENTITLED, it's the only word I can think of, you sound.


lol. Monochro and muskies are off, NYState is right here. I'll be living with my SO too, and if we don't go out once every so often, we would wind up hating each other and our lives. Obviously I'm going to attend my closest friends' weddings. This isn't entitlement, its elemental. You sound like a misanthropic prude asshole who I would have completely ignored in UG because you would never hit the bars with me for fear of accidentally spending money on having fun. don't go around labeling others entitled pricks because they have a social life. so you were poor as a college student? your rich friends went out and drove nice cars and you didn't get to? get over it. we all faced the same shit. we've all come into contact with those who have had resources more expansive than ours. I'll be loaning out six figures for LS (although far from sticker), but I don't intend to live in shit for the next 7 years either.

75K in NYC is not upper middle class.. THAT is the trolling here. Besides, class is a construct, not a financial commitment. One could debate the merits of social/class dynamics and whether they exist in the US vis a vis UK or FR but you can't get away with calling yourself even nominally upper middle class in the states w/o $150K+ salary (without loan payments), home ownership, a german car, & private school tuitions for your kids.

Who wants to be "upper middle class" anyway? haven't we moved beyond bourgeois? I grew up in an "upper middle class" neighborhood and everyone had a shrink, was getting divorced, their kids were doing coke and blacking out at Cotillon while their parents were too hopped up on prescription meds and brunch to give a damn. My sister did equestrian, and I remember when I'd go to her classes I'd watch these moms at the stables talk about the $15K surgery they had on their DOG. Disgusting. My parents separated, dropped out years ago and now live on a very modest income on the other side of the country much happier. Are you all just going to law school so you can shit on the working class and act like a typeA douchebag? I hope there's more to it then that, or you will be sorely disappointed. Youth isn't about splendor ("gatsby", wtf? you're not leo come on), its about life experiences and fun, and you can have plenty on a budget. If you are an attorney in NYC at a large firm working 70 hours a week, you should enjoy yourself a little when you get the chance. and by the way, no one NEEDS to pay off their debt in 3 or 5 years. They have 10 year repayment plans for a reason -- so you can earn a livable wage. I understand wanting to avoid compounded interest, but at the end of the day you aren't locked into making $5K/month loan payments, that's a choice that you can negotiate with your lifestyle.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:43 pm

Birdnals wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Right, but you are acting like a law school education was any more difficult than spending those three years working your way up in the corporate world out of college to make it to that 50K pre-tax salary. And completely forgetting that after those loans are paid off in 3-10 years your income will (most likely)completely outpace the average American worker if you started in biglaw and will continue to out pace it for rest of your careers.

Nobody feels bad for the guy with the Yale degree who landed biglaw because he has to live the peasants life of having 50K of expendable income and doesn't get the models and bottles until he turns the crypt keeper's age of 30.


Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.

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jkpolk
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jkpolk » Fri May 24, 2013 12:48 pm

Birdnals wrote:I don't get why you don't just have your parents pay for all this stuff. Don't you have any money?


180.

I'm getting tired of the TLS trend towards "entitlement is bad." Stupid jealous proles.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby californiauser » Fri May 24, 2013 12:52 pm

muskies970 wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Right, but you are acting like a law school education was any more difficult than spending those three years working your way up in the corporate world out of college to make it to that 50K pre-tax salary. And completely forgetting that after those loans are paid off in 3-10 years your income will (most likely)completely outpace the average American worker if you started in biglaw and will continue to out pace it for rest of your careers.

Nobody feels bad for the guy with the Yale degree who landed biglaw because he has to live the peasants life of having 50K of expendable income and doesn't get the models and bottles until he turns the crypt keeper's age of 30.


Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.


Plenty of T50 schools are NOT worth it. Hastings for example. 200k+ investment for a less than 50% chance of becoming a lawyer is an objectively stupid decision.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:53 pm

jbagelboy wrote:lol. Monochro and muskies are off, NYState is right here. I'll be living with my SO too, and if we don't go out once every so often, we would wind up hating each other and our lives. Obviously I'm going to attend my closest friends' weddings. This isn't entitlement, its elemental. You sound like a misanthropic prude asshole who I would have completely ignored in UG because you would never hit the bars with me for fear of accidentally spending money on having fun. don't go around labeling others entitled pricks because they have a social life. so you were poor as a college student? your rich friends went out and drove nice cars and you didn't get to? get over it. we all faced the same shit. we've all come into contact with those who have had resources more expansive than ours. I'll be loaning out six figures for LS (although far from sticker), but I don't intend to live in shit for the next 7 years either.

75K in NYC is not upper middle class.. THAT is the trolling here. Besides, class is a construct, not a financial commitment. One could debate the merits of social/class dynamics and whether they exist in the US vis a vis UK or FR but you can't get away with calling yourself even nominally upper middle class in the states w/o $150K+ salary (without loan payments), home ownership, a german car, & private school tuitions for your kids.

Who wants to be "upper middle class" anyway? haven't we moved beyond bourgeois? I grew up in an "upper middle class" neighborhood and everyone had a shrink, was getting divorced, their kids were doing coke and blacking out at Cotillon while their parents were too hopped up on prescription meds and brunch to give a damn. My sister did equestrian, and I remember when I'd go to her classes I'd watch these moms at the stables talk about the $15K surgery they had on their DOG. Disgusting. My parents separated, dropped out years ago and now live on a very modest income on the other side of the country much happier. Are you all just going to law school so you can shit on the working class and act like a typeA douchebag? I hope there's more to it then that, or you will be sorely disappointed. Youth isn't about splendor ("gatsby", wtf? you're not leo come on), its about life experiences and fun, and you can have plenty on a budget. If you are an attorney in NYC at a large firm working 70 hours a week, you should enjoy yourself a little when you get the chance. and by the way, no one NEEDS to pay off their debt in 3 or 5 years. They have 10 year repayment plans for a reason -- so you can earn a livable wage. I understand wanting to avoid compounded interest, but at the end of the day you aren't locked into making $5K/month loan payments, that's a choice that you can negotiate with your lifestyle.



If you and your SO have to go out every weekend in order to stand each other, maybe it's time to start re-evaluating the relationship no? And there's definitely cheap and easy ways to go out such as a walk in the park or renting a movie, going to a free music event, that don't consist of huge bar tabs (Models and Bottles).

Not entitled prick because of social life, entitled prick because complaining about living on 75k post tax post loan payment while living a lifestyle most people only dream of...

I'm over the argument. Paying off sticker is easily doable with Biglaw, or PAYE. That is the key point.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:53 pm

californiauser wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Right, but you are acting like a law school education was any more difficult than spending those three years working your way up in the corporate world out of college to make it to that 50K pre-tax salary. And completely forgetting that after those loans are paid off in 3-10 years your income will (most likely)completely outpace the average American worker if you started in biglaw and will continue to out pace it for rest of your careers.

Nobody feels bad for the guy with the Yale degree who landed biglaw because he has to live the peasants life of having 50K of expendable income and doesn't get the models and bottles until he turns the crypt keeper's age of 30.


Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.


Plenty of T50 schools are NOT worth it. Hastings for example. 200k+ investment for a less than 50% chance of becoming a lawyer is an objectively stupid decision.


Sorry for generalizing. I agree

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 24, 2013 12:53 pm

californiauser wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
NYstate wrote:
Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Right, but you are acting like a law school education was any more difficult than spending those three years working your way up in the corporate world out of college to make it to that 50K pre-tax salary. And completely forgetting that after those loans are paid off in 3-10 years your income will (most likely)completely outpace the average American worker if you started in biglaw and will continue to out pace it for rest of your careers.

Nobody feels bad for the guy with the Yale degree who landed biglaw because he has to live the peasants life of having 50K of expendable income and doesn't get the models and bottles until he turns the crypt keeper's age of 30.


Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.


Plenty of T50 schools are NOT worth it. Hastings for example. 200k+ investment for a less than 50% chance of becoming a lawyer is an objectively stupid decision.


Agreed, I would refine this to any school with a 50%+ chance of a good outcome (AIII + biglaw + some PI)

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 12:56 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
californiauser wrote:
Plenty of T50 schools are NOT worth it. Hastings for example. 200k+ investment for a less than 50% chance of becoming a lawyer is an objectively stupid decision.


Agreed, I would refine this to any school with a 50%+ chance of a good outcome (AIII + biglaw + some PI)


Plus maybe some T50-T100 schools in states with low tuition, you're right the rankings are probably a bad indicator that was my fault.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 24, 2013 12:57 pm

muskies970 wrote:
If you and your SO have to go out every weekend in order to stand each other, maybe it's time to start re-evaluating the relationship no? And there's definitely cheap and easy ways to go out such as a walk in the park or renting a movie, going to a free music event, that don't consist of huge bar tabs (Models and Bottles).

Not entitled prick because of social life, entitled prick because complaining about living on 75k post tax post loan payment while living a lifestyle most people only dream of...

I'm over the argument. Paying off sticker is easily doable with Biglaw, or PAYE. That is the key point.


Not a fair commentary if you've ever been in a long term serious relationship. you need to go out occasionally. Claiming that couples never need to do things together just makes you seem unsociable ("renting a movie" or "Taking a walk" doesn't count). I agree that it's important to find less expensive alternatives, and I never said anything about huge bar tabs. I have no intention of living a "models and bottles" lifestyle, had enough of that already in my life, I just want to start a family at this point.

I agree 75K post tax post loan is a lot. I live on ~$40K post tax right now and I have a good time and still manage to save.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Birdnals » Fri May 24, 2013 12:59 pm

muskies970 wrote:
Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.


All of my comments were limited to "if you get biglaw out of lawschool". Anybody who doesn't, and has that much debt (outside of those fucking weirdos who are PI and enjoy living in shanties to help poors and just use IBR) is lolfucked. Even those that do get biglaw may flame out after three years or just be good law students but SPS lawyers and face some difficulties. And either not getting biglaw or getting it and flaming out/sucking is a very real possibility even in the t14.

But to say "even if I get big law, woe is me" if fucking entitled and retarded.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:00 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
If you and your SO have to go out every weekend in order to stand each other, maybe it's time to start re-evaluating the relationship no? And there's definitely cheap and easy ways to go out such as a walk in the park or renting a movie, going to a free music event, that don't consist of huge bar tabs (Models and Bottles).

Not entitled prick because of social life, entitled prick because complaining about living on 75k post tax post loan payment while living a lifestyle most people only dream of...

I'm over the argument. Paying off sticker is easily doable with Biglaw, or PAYE. That is the key point.


Not a fair commentary if you've ever been in a long term serious relationship. you need to go out occasionally. Claiming that couples never need to do things together just makes you seem unsociable ("renting a movie" or "Taking a walk" doesn't count). I agree that it's important to find less expensive alternatives, and I never said anything about huge bar tabs. I have no intention of living a "models and bottles" lifestyle, had enough of that already in my life, I just want to start a family at this point.

I agree 75K post tax post loan is a lot. I live on ~$40K post tax right now and I have a good time and still manage to save.


I agree that the family part would probably raise a lot more costs too that haven't been discussed. I assume most of us want to start one around ages 28-32 so there's that.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Nelson » Fri May 24, 2013 1:34 pm

muskies970 wrote:
Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.

There is so much wrong with this that I can't believe this isn't a flame. Did you just stroll out of a time machine from 2004?

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 24, 2013 1:36 pm

Nelson wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Exactly, I fell into this exact same trap when I first started reading all the WARNINGS on this site about the UNBEARABLE debt. COncession, no one going to a TT, TTT, or TTTT should be taking out that much debt, but I also don't think they should be going to lawschool at all. However for a T14-T50 degree that much debt will only burden you for 3-10 years and then you'll have a great lifestyle for the average American which big picture is better than 90% of the world.

Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.

I wish people would stop spreading unneccesary fear, and keep it more realistic, on this forum. I almost fell intot he trap of turning down a T14 for ~100k in debt because I thought it would be unbearable until I did the math myself.

There is so much wrong with this that I can't believe this isn't a flame. Did you just stroll out of a time machine from 2004?

Every point, I agree with.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 1:59 pm

NYstate wrote: Just to clear this up- I have no debt. If you were talking to me. I would never have borrowed sticker. I don't compare the average American to the homeless or the migrant workers who make less than $10,000 a year. I don't see the average American as entitled. I don't think it is a valid comparison to compare people with 7 years of education, three of which are needed to get a professional degree, with what the average American makes.


Would you also contend it is not a valid comparison to use the standards of "professional degree holder" with someone whose net worth is in the negative six figures? Otherwise, considering law school as a fixed-cost investment, you're use mark-to-market societal standards on the indebted. In other words, you're suggesting they ought to live like upper-middle class graduate degree holders (which implies financial security), rather than live as though they're broke. I would argue, given their debt levels, they are much worse than broke. Yes, statistically they are likely to accumulate wealth, but for the time being, that makes zero financial sense.

jbagelboy wrote:I'll be living with my SO too, and if we don't go out once every so often, we would wind up hating each other and our lives.


If every financial decision could be forgiven if it made a person happier, no one would have any problems. Liking your life is not a prerequisite to every financial decision one makes. I said it before and I'll say it again--paying back six-figure debt sucks. Your life won't be fun. But it is temporary, and it is crucial to having some financial security later. You're trading some of your happiness now for (presumably) a lot more later.

Also, perhaps someone could correct me on this, but it is my experience that living with an SO is, on net, a money saver. Is this not true for most people?

You sound like a misanthropic prude asshole


Please don't take offense, because none is meant, but I fear you are in for a nasty surprise when you meet more law students.

I'll be loaning out six figures for LS (although far from sticker), but I don't intend to live in shit for the next 7 years either.


This is, as mentioned, your choice, and everyone is free to determine the lifestyle they want within the confines of their finances. No judgment intended, although it is just a fact that if you don't pay more now, you'll pay more later, and the earlier you pay it, the less your total debt burden. But if someone is okay with paying a little more in interest to have their first 3-5 years be more comfortable, then good for them.

One could debate the merits of social/class dynamics and whether they exist in the US vis a vis UK or FR but you can't get away with calling yourself even nominally upper middle class in the states w/o $150K+ salary (without loan payments), home ownership, a german car, & private school tuitions for your kids.


This is the 90th percentile of US income, and this restricts your definition of UMC to maybe 5-10% of the population. I think most people's definitions are more broad than this. My definition of UMC goes from about $75k to $150k per year, on average, but that $75k would certainly be far from UMC in Manhattan. Then again, an aggressive debt repayment schedule precludes a UMC lifestyle. $50k in NYC would be decidedly LMC, but hundreds of thousands of people manage it without their heads exploding. And it must be noted that it's only temporary.

by the way, no one NEEDS to pay off their debt in 3 or 5 years. They have 10 year repayment plans for a reason -- so you can earn a livable wage. I understand wanting to avoid compounded interest, but at the end of the day you aren't locked into making $5K/month loan payments, that's a choice that you can negotiate with your lifestyle.


This is very true. The thread was not originally a debate about whether or not it is desirable to pay back sticker in 5 years, merely whether or not one could do it. And you can, but it will suck. So that's a decision that everyone will have to make themselves. No one should begrudge the choice of anyone else as to how they live your life, I just wanted to point out that everyone has options.

muskies970 wrote:Everyone here is way too short sighted and can only think 3-5 years out, it's worse than congress passing short term budgets, law school should be viewed as a lifelong investment for a professional career that will give you a great chance at living a great life.


Circle gets the square!

It seems like a lot of these calculations are made on 5-year schedules, as though everyone is going to die in their thirties. Law school is not just an investment for 5 or 10 years, it's an investment for 30+. When you use spreadsheets to figure out how you can break even in 5 years, remember you have another 25 where you still will be making a lot more than you would with just a Bachelor's, presuming...

Birdnals wrote: All of my comments were limited to "if you get biglaw out of lawschool". Anybody who doesn't, and has that much debt (outside of those fucking weirdos who are PI and enjoy living in shanties to help poors and just use IBR) is lolfucked.


+1, and ditto for everything I've said. If you don't get Biglaw, there really is almost no way to make the math work. That's why I would say no one should assume $150k+ debt at anything below 20.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 2:04 pm

Just for clarification: I believe everything that everyone has said about the financial disaster you face assuming $150k+ of debt at a non-T20 stands--you can wind up seriously ruined. But despite the crunch, the T20 (around there, more or less depending on your opinion) is still worth it, if your alternative is to try out this job market with a Bachelor's. I'm presuming most of you don't have undergraduate degrees in STEM or finance/accounting--without one you would be very lucky to top $75k.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 24, 2013 2:07 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Just for clarification: I believe everything that everyone has said about the financial disaster you face assuming $150k+ of debt at a non-T20 stands--you can wind up seriously ruined. But despite the crunch, the T20 (around there, more or less depending on your opinion) is still worth it, if your alternative is to try out this job market with a Bachelor's. I'm presuming most of you don't have undergraduate degrees in STEM or finance/accounting--without one you would be very lucky to top $75k.


Yeah, this is a good point. I'm on a pretty solid career trajectory right now for what my degree is, but I would still cap out at $80k/$100k, and that wouldn't happen for at least another 15-20 years.




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