How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

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Paul Campos
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Paul Campos » Wed May 22, 2013 5:23 pm

If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.

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jbagelboy
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 22, 2013 5:26 pm

Paul Campos wrote:If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.


I trust that you know what you are talking about. I was JW

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed May 22, 2013 5:29 pm

That's exactly the case about professors. They will have clerked before going into academia. A very few might manage to go from JD directly to prestigious-professor-in-training fellowships like the Climenko at Harvard, but it's not a large enough number to make any difference, given how expected clerking is as a prereq for professor-dom. (If you go K-JD you're done by 24, 25 tops, then a clerkship, then academia. So you could be 27-28. You don't want a LOT of legal experience - if you get a lot of actual legal practice experience you actually usually hurt your chances at academia - but virtually no one goes straight from the JD. And the "profs" you met may well have been people doing the Climenko or its ilk at other schools, because usually you teach at least one course as part of these. Like these folks: http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/de ... llows.html.)

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untar614
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby untar614 » Wed May 22, 2013 7:28 pm

Paul Campos wrote:If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.

At Northwestern, I spoke to the professor teaching the negotiations class. He started straight out of law school after graduation. Maybe he wasn't a professor his first year out, but he said he's only 5-6 years out of graduation.

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Wed May 22, 2013 7:43 pm

untar614 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.

At Northwestern, I spoke to the professor teaching the negotiations class. He started straight out of law school after graduation. Maybe he wasn't a professor his first year out, but he said he's only 5-6 years out of graduation.


And who better to teach negotiation than someone who has never run a deal or settled a major lawsuit? Obviously negotiation is a purely theoretical subject requiring no practical experience.

This isn't a jab at northwestern btw, I'm sure he is a stellar professor. It just exemplifies how little academia values practical experience.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed May 22, 2013 7:53 pm

untar614 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.

At Northwestern, I spoke to the professor teaching the negotiations class. He started straight out of law school after graduation. Maybe he wasn't a professor his first year out, but he said he's only 5-6 years out of graduation.

Either he did start straight out of law school or he didn't, in which case he isn't relevant as far as whether he'd be counted in the "academia" category for employment at 9 months. No one disputes that there are young law professors.

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untar614
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby untar614 » Wed May 22, 2013 8:54 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
untar614 wrote:
Paul Campos wrote:If an OL met some very young-looking profs at ASW I guess I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs on this question.

At Northwestern, I spoke to the professor teaching the negotiations class. He started straight out of law school after graduation. Maybe he wasn't a professor his first year out, but he said he's only 5-6 years out of graduation.

Either he did start straight out of law school or he didn't, in which case he isn't relevant as far as whether he'd be counted in the "academia" category for employment at 9 months. No one disputes that there are young law professors.

What I meant by that was I'm not sure if he was initially considered a "professor", but he was working for Northwestern Law coming out of graduation in some academic capacity, at least according to what he told me, and I'm not sure why he'd lie about it.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri May 24, 2013 1:44 am

ph5354a wrote:I'm just gonna say it, if you're in big law and you're only making the minimum loan payments, you're a damn fool.

Sorry to shatter this dream, but that spreadsheet looks very little like reality.

Reality is you will probably take your firm's 10k advance before starting, since you need some money to float yourself on during the summer and the fall until you begin (and don't get me started on the costs of securing an apartment in NYC so you can get settled before you start work). That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550. Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100. I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio. I also have loan payments on about $170k in law school debt, which come out to a hair under $2,100 per month.

That leaves me with about $1,000 per bi-monthly paycheck to allocate how I will, whether that be to additional savings, paying off loans, bottles & models, dinners/events with friends, wardrobe expenses, etc. While that sure seems like a lot on paper, you'll find that it doesn't go nearly as far as you'd think in NYC. It's also quite unlikely you'll have any safety net when you start working, given that moving into an apartment can drain almost every penny of your advance due to first months' rent, security deposit, and a 8-15% brokers fee. As a result, one of my goals was to provide a little bit of a cushion in case anything happens so I'm not left with $15,000 less of debt but without any accessible savings. I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends, traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast), and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.

Add all of that up, and I would contend that it is more or less impossible to be anywhere close to the $4,000 per month you think you'll be paying off with a $160k salary. Will I be able to up my loan payments to $2.5-3k/month when the advance is paid off and I have a bit more of a cushion built up? Sure. But that doesn't happen right away, and anyone expecting to make those kinds of payments right out of the gate will be in for quite a surprise.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Fri May 24, 2013 1:55 am

Bro, you're living a pretty luxurious lifestyle for your first year out of law school. Just saying

75k a year after taxes after 10k in your 401k and after loan payments, man that's a hard lifestyle I can see how you just barely scrape by I don't know how all those ppl living on NYC on only 50k a year salary pretax do it. Maybe if you didn't go to all five weddings and cut back from going out EVERY weekend for your social life to every other week and were somewhat thrifty buying only one or two suits and some discount clothes you could put more towards your loans...

If anything you're the perfect example of someone sounding overly entitled and proof of how awesome a big law job can be. I have plenty of hardworking friends fresh out of college/ grad schools who would kill for that kind of money.

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Lincoln
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Lincoln » Fri May 24, 2013 8:38 am

muskies970 wrote:Bro, you're living a pretty luxurious lifestyle for your first year out of law school. Just saying

75k a year after taxes after 10k in your 401k and after loan payments, man that's a hard lifestyle I can see how you just barely scrape by I don't know how all those ppl living on NYC on only 50k a year salary pretax do it. Maybe if you didn't go to all five weddings and cut back from going out EVERY weekend for your social life to every other week and were somewhat thrifty buying only one or two suits and some discount clothes you could put more towards your loans...

If anything you're the perfect example of someone sounding overly entitled and proof of how awesome a big law job can be. I have plenty of hardworking friends fresh out of college/ grad schools who would kill for that kind of money.


Unless you have experienced this yourself, you should cut down on the snark. I've lived in NYC on $50k pre-tax, but I sure as hell didn't have a $2-3,000 monthly loan payment to deal with. Earls admits (s)he could pay a bit more, depending on rent, 401(k), etc., but her/his budget is not that far off.

Edited for gender neutrality.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 9:21 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100.


The only reason to make 401k contributions while you have outstanding debt is if you're presuming a higher ROI than the interest rates on your loans (~8%). I would argue, in the current economic situation, that's way too optimistic over a period of three-four years. So no, I would say no one with student debt should be making 401k contributions.

I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio.


You could get a studio, you could move to Queens, or Harlem (assuming you aren't paranoid). Everyone else has assumed they will live in a bad location and/or a tiny place--it's part of being fiscally responsible when you have a net worth in the negative six figures.

I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends


This is presumably a one-time expense and should cost no more than $4k, although you could do it pretty easily for $2.5-3k.

traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast)


This is not something anyone has to do. Feel free to decline a cross-country trip on account of you being broke. Or have fewer friends.

and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.


No one is obligated to do this either. Your choice, but I'm presuming the loan people will be relatively unsympathetic to your explanation that it was such a tough week you absolutely had to get tanked.

Look, it's generally agreed the first few months you'll be restricted, due in part to some of the things you mentioned. But when you take home a little over $7,500 a month, this shouldn't be that hard. Let's assume $2k for your living situation. Are you telling me that if you made $4k payments, you couldn't manage to live on $1,500 left over for everything else? This post is emblematic of a problem so many young associates with six-figure debt seem to have: They can't figure out how to pay it back while still living the upper-middle class lifestyle they had always assumed was just part of being a lawyer. You know, it's okay, when you have so much debt, to live like you're *gulp* POOR. But the people here aren't even assuming that. They're asking you to live on, what, $50k? And that's only for three years! If you've gotten that Biglaw job, you could presumably have six figures for several decades, even if you burn out fast.

Maybe every post regarding debt should have the caveat "assuming you're willing to put off the Gatsby life until you're at least 30." It should be self-evident at this point, but no one seems to get it.

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Fri May 24, 2013 9:32 am

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/bucks/2 ... dent-debt/

borrow sticker -->PAYE/IBR--> :D

If it passes...and stays that way.

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Birdnals
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Birdnals » Fri May 24, 2013 9:35 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100.


The only reason to make 401k contributions while you have outstanding debt is if you're presuming a higher ROI than the interest rates on your loans (~8%). I would argue, in the current economic situation, that's way too optimistic over a period of three-four years. So no, I would say no one with student debt should be making 401k contributions.



I'm pretty baby dick when it comes to knowledge of finance, so correct me if I am wrong, but don't many companies/firms match or do something close to matching 401k contributions to a certain extent? Making it dumb NOT to max that out?

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 9:38 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100.


The only reason to make 401k contributions while you have outstanding debt is if you're presuming a higher ROI than the interest rates on your loans (~8%). I would argue, in the current economic situation, that's way too optimistic over a period of three-four years. So no, I would say no one with student debt should be making 401k contributions.

I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio.


You could get a studio, you could move to Queens, or Harlem (assuming you aren't paranoid). Everyone else has assumed they will live in a bad location and/or a tiny place--it's part of being fiscally responsible when you have a net worth in the negative six figures.

I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends


This is presumably a one-time expense and should cost no more than $4k, although you could do it pretty easily for $2.5-3k.

traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast)


This is not something anyone has to do. Feel free to decline a cross-country trip on account of you being broke. Or have fewer friends.

and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.


No one is obligated to do this either. Your choice, but I'm presuming the loan people will be relatively unsympathetic to your explanation that it was such a tough week you absolutely had to get tanked.

Look, it's generally agreed the first few months you'll be restricted, due in part to some of the things you mentioned. But when you take home a little over $7,500 a month, this shouldn't be that hard. Let's assume $2k for your living situation. Are you telling me that if you made $4k payments, you couldn't manage to live on $1,500 left over for everything else? This post is emblematic of a problem so many young associates with six-figure debt seem to have: They can't figure out how to pay it back while still living the upper-middle class lifestyle they had always assumed was just part of being a lawyer. You know, it's okay, when you have so much debt, to live like you're *gulp* POOR. But the people here aren't even assuming that. They're asking you to live on, what, $50k? And that's only for three years! If you've gotten that Biglaw job, you could presumably have six figures for several decades, even if you burn out fast.

Maybe every post regarding debt should have the caveat "assuming you're willing to put off the Gatsby life until you're at least 30." It should be self-evident at this point, but no one seems to get it.


Oh fuck you. People need to have some quality to life or else what is the point. We aren't talking about a "Gatsby" life which not even the highest paid associate is going to touch. We are talking about a normal,middle class life, which includes having friends who want you to attend major life events and a girlfriend who you help support and want to go out with.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you are more than willing to moralize and condemn a person who wants to minimally enjoy life. There must be something wrong with you. You have no reason to be so judgmental. He is doing well living within his means and keeping a balance. I know happiness is very low on your scale of values compared to penny- pinching debt repayment at the sacrifice of anything else.

My view is that his way of living is sustainable over the next five years. Living like a miserly hermit is hard to maintain over 5 years. It is also a stupid way to live for very long. Think of it as a reality check on your theoretical budget from your hypothetical job.
Last edited by NYstate on Fri May 24, 2013 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 24, 2013 9:39 am

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

You quoted the part about the cash advance, but it looks like you didn't actually include it in your calculation?

0Ls love to lecture associates about how they are budgeting poorly. But somehow the same assholes shut up once they're actually doing it.

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IAFG
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby IAFG » Fri May 24, 2013 9:40 am

Birdnals wrote:
I'm pretty baby dick when it comes to knowledge of finance, so correct me if I am wrong, but don't many companies/firms match or do something close to matching 401k contributions to a certain extent? Making it dumb NOT to max that out?


Very few firms have matching, but for those that do, it absolutely makes more sense.

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 9:50 am

IAFG wrote:
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote: That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550.


Even assuming you are in New York, and therefore your taxes are as high as possible, that is not the bi-weekly salary of someone making $160k. Looks more like $140-145k to me. Someone making $160k is going to have a bi-monthly take-home pay of around $3800.

You quoted the part about the cash advance, but it looks like you didn't actually include it in your calculation?

0Ls love to lecture assocyiates about how they are budgeting poorly. But somehow the same assholes shut up once they're actually doing it.


My point better stated.

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri May 24, 2013 9:53 am

Normal, middle class people can't afford 2K/month rent payments in the (second) most expensive city in the county. That's why all the middle class people live in the outer neighborhoods. People ITT have a strange notion of what it means to be middle class. The idea that you can make $3000 a month in debt repayment and still live in Manhattan is just insane by "middle-class" standards.

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sublime
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby sublime » Fri May 24, 2013 9:54 am

..

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Lincoln
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Lincoln » Fri May 24, 2013 10:00 am

sublime wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
I'm pretty baby dick when it comes to knowledge of finance, so correct me if I am wrong, but don't many companies/firms match or do something close to matching 401k contributions to a certain extent? Making it dumb NOT to max that out?


Very few firms have matching, but for those that do, it absolutely makes more sense.



Seriously? I am a stupid 0L, but I thought that would be pretty standard. THe bullshit job I have now matches up to a certain (extremely low) point.


As did my old job, but my (otherwise very fancy and market-paying) firm doesn't.

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Lincoln
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Lincoln » Fri May 24, 2013 10:04 am

IAFG wrote:
0Ls love to lecture associates, 2Ls, and 3Ls about how they are budgeting poorly. everything!

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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Fri May 24, 2013 10:22 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
ph5354a wrote:I'm just gonna say it, if you're in big law and you're only making the minimum loan payments, you're a damn fool.

Sorry to shatter this dream, but that spreadsheet looks very little like reality.

Reality is you will probably take your firm's 10k advance before starting, since you need some money to float yourself on during the summer and the fall until you begin (and don't get me started on the costs of securing an apartment in NYC so you can get settled before you start work). That advance is often repaid through deductions from your salary over the course of your first year, which actually brought my bi-monthly paycheck with taxes withheld for a single filer to around $3,550. Perhaps you'll want to make some sort of contribution to your 401k? As of right now, I'm only contributing about 6% because I'm limited by the amount I'm repaying each paycheck to the advance, but that brings my bi-monthly salary to about $3,100. I share a 1BR with my girlfriend that costs me about $2,000/month in rent, plus another $100 in utilities. You may end up paying a bit less if you have roommates (since I cover a bit more because my girlfriend is PI), or you may end up paying closer to $2,000-2,300 if you do a modest studio. I also have loan payments on about $170k in law school debt, which come out to a hair under $2,100 per month.

That leaves me with about $1,000 per bi-monthly paycheck to allocate how I will, whether that be to additional savings, paying off loans, bottles & models, dinners/events with friends, wardrobe expenses, etc. While that sure seems like a lot on paper, you'll find that it doesn't go nearly as far as you'd think in NYC. It's also quite unlikely you'll have any safety net when you start working, given that moving into an apartment can drain almost every penny of your advance due to first months' rent, security deposit, and a 8-15% brokers fee. As a result, one of my goals was to provide a little bit of a cushion in case anything happens so I'm not left with $15,000 less of debt but without any accessible savings. I have also had to spend some money on gradually building a more professional wardrobe with a couple suits and other odds and ends, traveling to friends' weddings (I have 5 already this year, none of which are on the east coast), and trying to maintain some semblance of a social life by going out once a week.

Add all of that up, and I would contend that it is more or less impossible to be anywhere close to the $4,000 per month you think you'll be paying off with a $160k salary. Will I be able to up my loan payments to $2.5-3k/month when the advance is paid off and I have a bit more of a cushion built up? Sure. But that doesn't happen right away, and anyone expecting to make those kinds of payments right out of the gate will be in for quite a surprise.




Thanks for the account.

Without your 401k, which unless matched, seems not worth it, you are still putting 3k+ towards your loans. After your advance is covered, will your paycheck not increase by another $1000/month? If all put to loans, 4k/month seems like a decent life.

Not sure if you get bonuses but that could add to the qol or bring you over 4k. If you don't have a SO, roommates might be nice for the social aspect and save money too.

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 10:34 am

Lincoln wrote:
sublime wrote:
IAFG wrote:
Birdnals wrote:
I'm pretty baby dick when it comes to knowledge of finance, so correct me if I am wrong, but don't many companies/firms match or do something close to matching 401k contributions to a certain extent? Making it dumb NOT to max that out?


Very few firms have matching, but for those that do, it absolutely makes more sense.



Seriously? I am a stupid 0L, but I thought that would be pretty standard. THe bullshit job I have now matches up to a certain (extremely low) point.


As did my old job, but my (otherwise very fancy and market-paying) firm doesn't.


My firm has never matched and they never will.

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ph5354a
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby ph5354a » Fri May 24, 2013 10:43 am

sinfiery wrote:
Thanks for the account.

Without your 401k, which unless matched, seems not worth it, you are still putting 3k+ towards your loans. After your advance is covered, will your paycheck not increase by another $1000/month? If all put to loans, 4k/month seems like a decent life.

Not sure if you get bonuses but that could add to the qol or bring you over 4k. If you don't have a SO, roommates might be nice for the social aspect and save money too.


^This. I'm certainly grateful whenever a current associate gives a rundown of their monthly budget, it's always helpful; it's true that no one was taking into account the advance coming out of first year's earnings, so that's important to adjust. I still don't get contributing that much to a 401k when you still have outstanding debt, but that's a personal choice.

Fwiw, my initial comment wasn't really directed towards the initial quality of life factor (everyone's situation is different re: marriage/kids/etc.), but more regarding the fact that most people will leave big law and take a serious pay cut after year 5 if not earlier, so if you're only doing the minimal payments, then your quality of life will decrease significantly at that point. then won't your quality of life decrease significantly at that point?

Edited so people don't yell at me for being a douchey 0L

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 24, 2013 11:54 am

Birdnals wrote:I'm pretty baby dick when it comes to knowledge of finance, so correct me if I am wrong, but don't many companies/firms match or do something close to matching 401k contributions to a certain extent? Making it dumb NOT to max that out?


I am assuming they don't, and other posters seem to think that's the case (I think they would know better than me). But, of course, if they do, this changes the calculus significantly, and may make it a good proposition to do so.

NYstate wrote: Oh fuck you. People need to have some quality to life or else what is the point.


The point is paying back sticker. That is, after all, the title of the thread. Yes, part of the allure of the law degree is the upper-middle class lifestyle it can provide you. But generally most people experience that after they pay back their debt. You can go and have a bunch of fun in your first two years if you want, but the debt doesn't go away just because you don't maximize opportunities to pay it. It just means you pay more later.

We aren't talking about a "Gatsby" life which not even the highest paid associate is going to touch. We are talking about a normal,middle class life, which includes having friends who want you to attend major life events and a girlfriend who you help support and want to go out with.


If we are talking about a "normal middle-class life", we are not talking about paying back sticker as fast as possible, which entails long hours for what eventually amounts to mediocre pay. No, it isn't much fun. But it does put you in a better financial position for the rest of your life--which I think is much more important in the big picture than how much fun you have in two or three specific years.

You have no idea what you are talking about yet you are more than willing to moralize and condemn a person who wants to minimally enjoy life. There must be something wrong with you. You have no reason to be so judgmental. He is doing well living within his means and keeping a balance. I know happiness is very low on your scale of values compared to penny- pinching debt repayment at the sacrifice of anything else.

My view is that his way of living is sustainable over the next five years. Living like a miserly hermit is hard to maintain over 5 years. It is also a stupid way to live for very long. Think of it as a reality check on your theoretical budget from your hypothetical job.


My rebuttal does not "moralize" or "condemn." I think someone is free to live their life any way they want. If someone wants to pay back $5k per month and live flat-out poor for 3-5 years, that's fine. Or if someone wants to just make the minimum payment and have be a middle-class Manhattanite in their twenties, that's fine too--it just means you eventually pay more. That's not me telling him his life is "wrong", it's me responding to this:

Sorry to shatter this dream, but that spreadsheet looks very little like reality.

Add all of that up, and I would contend that it is more or less impossible to be anywhere close to the $4,000 per month you think you'll be paying off with a $160k salary.


The poster used his experiences to suggest a proposal was undoable. I responded by suggesting the proposal does not necessarily need to include many of the things the poster counts in his expenses. Paying back $4k a month is not fun, and maybe it's not what you call a "normal middle-class lifestyle." But some people legitimately want to pay back their debt as quickly as humanly possible, and who could blame them? Alternatively, it seems this poster would rather have some fun in his first few associates years than pay back the debt as quickly as possible. And that's okay too--it's his life. He seems to imply he could pay back his debt faster if he really wanted to, which was sort of my point.

IAFG wrote:You quoted the part about the cash advance, but it looks like you didn't actually include it in your calculation?


In this framework, you are correct. My mistake--that was an oversight on my part. Assuming you do take the advance, you will see a slightly reduced paycheck for the first year, which presumably reduces your ability to pay your loans by $600/month (I don't know if that's correct, but that's what his calculation seems to imply). Note that this no longer applies after the first year, however.

All in all, the rundown is a useful comparison tool and introduces certain factors that, when taken into account, suggest a lower ability to pay for the first year, but otherwise implies that calculus for years 2-5 are correct.




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