How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

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NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Tue May 21, 2013 12:39 pm

You guys haven't shown that paying sticker is doable as long as you show restraint. You've convinced yourselves that you will all get big law and will keep it long enough to repay debt and that you will be willing to live in the most expensive cities in the U.S. on a fraction of your income from your hypothetical jobs. At least some of you have no idea what biglaw practice entails; I'm sure at least some of you have never even taken a law school class or exam.

Maybe the people in this thread who are going into biglaw jobs, I know there is at least one, will post from time to time about your progress.

I still urge people to consider more specifically their back- up plan to biglaw. All anyone says is they will go on IBR. No one talks about what job they might get if they miss out on biglaw.

Most everyone in this thread seems determined to ignore any red flag that people have tried to raise with your thinking.

So, good luck. I hope it all works out the way you want.

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jbagelboy
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 21, 2013 12:41 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Question,

Most graduates from TTTT schools would probably have been facing options of working for salaries of 30-50k at best before law school anyways without the debt...

If they have 250k plus in debt from making the choice to attend law school, then end up with the same low paying 50k law job and unable to pay the debt, what is the difference?

I know you can't default on student loan debt, but it's not like we've instituted debtors prisons (yet...) So what actually happens if you're swimming in debt with no way out? Do they demand you pay or is it just there haunting you for life getting bigger and bigger? Does it pass on to your children?


You go on IBR.


Actually, if you read your MPN statement before signing accepting student loans, they list the three ways you can be absolved of those loans. The first is death. Gave me a shudder, but essentially no, it will never pass to your children - your law school debt will die with you.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:42 pm

NYstate wrote:You guys haven't shown that paying sticker is doable as long as you show restraint. You've convinced yourselves that you will all get big law and will keep it long enough to repay debt and that you will be willing to live in the most expensive cities in the U.S. on a fraction of your income from your hypothetical jobs. At least some of you have no idea what biglaw practice entails; I'm sure at least some of you have never even taken a law school class or exam.

Maybe the people in this thread who are going into biglaw jobs, I know there is at least one, will post from time to time about your progress.

I still urge people to consider more specifically their back- up plan to biglaw. All anyone says is they will go on IBR. No one talks about what job they might get if they miss out on biglaw.

Most everyone in this thread seems determined to ignore any red flag that people have tried to raise with your thinking.

So, good luck. I hope it all works out the way you want.


Thank you for a completely unproductive,non-factual based, fear mongering post. we need more of these

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Rahviveh
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue May 21, 2013 12:42 pm

NYstate wrote:You guys haven't shown that paying sticker is doable as long as you show restraint. You've convinced yourselves that you will all get big law and will keep it long enough to repay debt and that you will be willing to live in the most expensive cities in the U.S. on a fraction of your income from your hypothetical jobs. At least some of you have no idea what biglaw practice entails; I'm sure at least some of you have never even taken a law school class or exam.

Maybe the people in this thread who are going into biglaw jobs, I know there is at least one, will post from time to time about your progress.

I still urge people to consider more specifically their back- up plan to biglaw. All anyone says is they will go on IBR. No one talks about what job they might get if they miss out on biglaw.

Most everyone in this thread seems determined to ignore any red flag that people have tried to raise with your thinking.

So, good luck. I hope it all works out the way you want.


There is no good data about the legal job market outside of biglaw. People will probably be working in shitlaw or small law if they strike out. What else is there that should be discussed, in your opinion? The biglaw scenario is being discussed more because there is debate over how to pay off that debt even while on a high salary. In the case of small law, there isn't any debate, you will just have to go on IBR no matter what you do.

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Rahviveh
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue May 21, 2013 12:43 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Question,

Most graduates from TTTT schools would probably have been facing options of working for salaries of 30-50k at best before law school anyways without the debt...

If they have 250k plus in debt from making the choice to attend law school, then end up with the same low paying 50k law job and unable to pay the debt, what is the difference?

I know you can't default on student loan debt, but it's not like we've instituted debtors prisons (yet...) So what actually happens if you're swimming in debt with no way out? Do they demand you pay or is it just there haunting you for life getting bigger and bigger? Does it pass on to your children?


You go on IBR.


Actually, if you read your MPN statement before signing accepting student loans, they list the three ways you can be absolved of those loans. The first is death. Gave me a shudder, but essentially no, it will never pass to your children - your law school debt will die with you.

Yep, I was reading the MPN yesterday. Its a good thing I guess lol.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:43 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Question,

Most graduates from TTTT schools would probably have been facing options of working for salaries of 30-50k at best before law school anyways without the debt...

If they have 250k plus in debt from making the choice to attend law school, then end up with the same low paying 50k law job and unable to pay the debt, what is the difference?

I know you can't default on student loan debt, but it's not like we've instituted debtors prisons (yet...) So what actually happens if you're swimming in debt with no way out? Do they demand you pay or is it just there haunting you for life getting bigger and bigger? Does it pass on to your children?


You go on IBR.


Actually, if you read your MPN statement before signing accepting student loans, they list the three ways you can be absolved of those loans. The first is death. Gave me a shudder, but essentially no, it will never pass to your children - your law school debt will die with you.


Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:45 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Question,

Most graduates from TTTT schools would probably have been facing options of working for salaries of 30-50k at best before law school anyways without the debt...

If they have 250k plus in debt from making the choice to attend law school, then end up with the same low paying 50k law job and unable to pay the debt, what is the difference?

I know you can't default on student loan debt, but it's not like we've instituted debtors prisons (yet...) So what actually happens if you're swimming in debt with no way out? Do they demand you pay or is it just there haunting you for life getting bigger and bigger? Does it pass on to your children?


You go on IBR.


Actually, if you read your MPN statement before signing accepting student loans, they list the three ways you can be absolved of those loans. The first is death. Gave me a shudder, but essentially no, it will never pass to your children - your law school debt will die with you.

Yep, I was reading the MPN yesterday. Its a good thing I guess lol.


It's actually a great thing, I was slightly worried (i wouldn't be surprised in the future with the BILLIONS in all forms of student debt currently held by U.S. citizens) that it would pass on to future generations/family.

They should just go ahead with the Solon Debt Jubilee already, start from scratch.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 21, 2013 12:47 pm

muskies970 wrote:Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

Well after the government forgives your loans the forgiven amount is taxable. The IRS can take just about anything to collect on that debt. So you just won't be able to ever own anything or have any wages.

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sinfiery
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Tue May 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

Well after the government forgives your loans the forgiven amount is taxable. The IRS can take just about anything to collect on that debt. So you just won't be able to ever own anything or have any wages.

Also, many people will be doing this. Not likely by choice tho.

Can bankruptcy rid you of IRS obligations?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 21, 2013 12:53 pm

sinfiery wrote:Can bankruptcy rid you of IRS obligations?

Potentially yes. Generally have to wait at least three years.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:56 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

Well after the government forgives your loans the forgiven amount is taxable. The IRS can take just about anything to collect on that debt. So you just won't be able to ever own anything or have any wages.


How much are they actually likely to take though? Just curious how bad it actually is? I've read the stories in Spain and Greece about the massive housing evictions but not too much coverage in the United STates on it (yet). Is it pending a few years down the road?

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Rahviveh
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue May 21, 2013 12:57 pm

muskies970 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

Well after the government forgives your loans the forgiven amount is taxable. The IRS can take just about anything to collect on that debt. So you just won't be able to ever own anything or have any wages.


How much are they actually likely to take though? Just curious how bad it actually is? I've read the stories in Spain and Greece about the massive housing evictions but not too much coverage in the United STates on it (yet). Is it pending a few years down the road?


You can only be taxed up to the amount of your assets.

NYstate
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby NYstate » Tue May 21, 2013 1:01 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
NYstate wrote:You guys haven't shown that paying sticker is doable as long as you show restraint. You've convinced yourselves that you will all get big law and will keep it long enough to repay debt and that you will be willing to live in the most expensive cities in the U.S. on a fraction of your income from your hypothetical jobs. At least some of you have no idea what biglaw practice entails; I'm sure at least some of you have never even taken a law school class or exam.

Maybe the people in this thread who are going into biglaw jobs, I know there is at least one, will post from time to time about your progress.

I still urge people to consider more specifically their back- up plan to biglaw. All anyone says is they will go on IBR. No one talks about what job they might get if they miss out on biglaw.

Most everyone in this thread seems determined to ignore any red flag that people have tried to raise with your thinking.

So, good luck. I hope it all works out the way you want.


There is no good data about the legal job market outside of biglaw. People will probably be working in shitlaw or small law if they strike out. What else is there that should be discussed, in your opinion? The biglaw scenario is being discussed more because there is debate over how to pay off that debt even while on a high salary. In the case of small law, there isn't any debate, you will just have to go on IBR no matter what you do.


I haven't looked but I thought that data exists for firms outside biglaw. Not every NALP firm is biglaw. Certainly the NALP reports cover firms of different sizes. I am sure that data exists on firms outside of biglaw.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 21, 2013 1:03 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.

Well after the government forgives your loans the forgiven amount is taxable. The IRS can take just about anything to collect on that debt. So you just won't be able to ever own anything or have any wages.


How much are they actually likely to take though? Just curious how bad it actually is? I've read the stories in Spain and Greece about the massive housing evictions but not too much coverage in the United STates on it (yet). Is it pending a few years down the road?


You can only be taxed up to the amount of your assets.

Here is the wage garnishment table. Always a fun read:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1494.pdf

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 1:04 pm



thank you for this

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sinfiery
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby sinfiery » Tue May 21, 2013 1:06 pm

There is average salary for the lawyer profession which is pretty reassuring.

The biggest worry really is in trying to get a lawyer job more than biglaw imo.


@nystate If that data exists, I would LOVE to see it.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue May 21, 2013 1:22 pm

muskies970 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
muskies970 wrote:Question,

Most graduates from TTTT schools would probably have been facing options of working for salaries of 30-50k at best before law school anyways without the debt...

If they have 250k plus in debt from making the choice to attend law school, then end up with the same low paying 50k law job and unable to pay the debt, what is the difference?

I know you can't default on student loan debt, but it's not like we've instituted debtors prisons (yet...) So what actually happens if you're swimming in debt with no way out? Do they demand you pay or is it just there haunting you for life getting bigger and bigger? Does it pass on to your children?


You go on IBR.


Actually, if you read your MPN statement before signing accepting student loans, they list the three ways you can be absolved of those loans. The first is death. Gave me a shudder, but essentially no, it will never pass to your children - your law school debt will die with you.


Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.


When you go to a TTT, you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score.

When you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score, the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns.

When the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns, you live at the poverty level.

When you live at the poverty level, you have to move to Mississippi.

And when you have to move to Mississippi, you live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995.

Don't live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995. Switch to DirecTV and you'll never have to go to a TTT.

muskies970
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby muskies970 » Tue May 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
muskies970 wrote:
Well if that is the case what is stopping me from going to a TTTT, racking up ~250k of debt, hell even living it up. Getting that 50k doc review job, and then never paying my debt. Watch it balloon to MILLIONS before I die. and then not worrying about it.


When you go to a TTT, you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score.

When you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score, the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns.

When the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns, you live at the poverty level.

When you live at the poverty level, you have to move to Mississippi.

And when you have to move to Mississippi, you live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995.

Don't live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995. Switch to DirecTV and you'll never have to go to a TTT.


Move to Canada? I hear they have good healthcare

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jbagelboy
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 21, 2013 1:50 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:
When you go to a TTT, you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score.

When you rack up debt without any way to pay it back and destroy your credit score, the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns.

When the IRS garnishes your wages and blocks your returns, you live at the poverty level.

When you live at the poverty level, you have to move to Mississippi.

And when you have to move to Mississippi, you live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995.

Don't live in a state that didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995. Switch to DirecTV and you'll never have to go to a TTT.


Technically speaking, the Mississippi legislature didn't notify the fed government until this year so they weren't formally ratified until Feb 2013.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/1 ... 12289.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth ... nstitution

1995 would have been premature for Mississippians to emotionally accept the end of such a horrific & treasured institution. they needed that extra 18 years on top of the 130 years they took to bring it to a vote

timbs4339
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue May 21, 2013 2:14 pm



Any law dean or law professor who advocates "just do IBR bro" should be flogged until they can recite from memory each number in that table.

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Rahviveh
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue May 21, 2013 2:15 pm

Is there is a list of countries you can escape to that won't extradite you for debt?

Tiago Splitter wrote:Here is the wage garnishment table. Always a fun read:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1494.pdf



The way I understand it, the IRS will only tax you up the amount of assets you have... so if your loan balance is way higher than the assets in your name, you will not be taxed on the full amount. Is that not correct?

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Tue May 21, 2013 2:18 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Is there is a list of countries you can escape to that won't extradite you for debt?

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/05/17/ ... best-plac/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_countri ... ted_States

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 21, 2013 3:03 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:The way I understand it, the IRS will only tax you up the amount of assets you have... so if your loan balance is way higher than the assets in your name, you will not be taxed on the full amount. Is that not correct?

That is true, but damn what a strategy. When the best case scenario is that you are broke at age 50 so you can't be taxed on your forgiven debt, you might want to look into alternatives.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Tue May 21, 2013 3:15 pm

Well, I'm glad we now have IRS garnishment data to shatter the long-standing TLS assumption that going to a TTT is the best financial decision a person could ever make. Maybe tomorrow we can look to a scientific journal to discover that water is actually wet.

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Rahviveh
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Re: How the Heck Do You Pay Back Sticker?

Postby Rahviveh » Tue May 21, 2013 3:28 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:The way I understand it, the IRS will only tax you up the amount of assets you have... so if your loan balance is way higher than the assets in your name, you will not be taxed on the full amount. Is that not correct?

That is true, but damn what a strategy. When the best case scenario is that you are broke at age 50 so you can't be taxed on your forgiven debt, you might want to look into alternatives.


Well it might not be a great strategy but it changes the calculus.

If you're making a small law salary over the course of IBR, you've made very little in payments. Your balance will have ballooned to a ridiculous amount, but if you have enough assets to be taxed on the whole thing, there shouldn't be any problem preparing for the bill. You have 25 years to do so.

Point being - im not sure how wage garnishing enters the discussion for forgiven debt under IBR




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