LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

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littleprince88
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby littleprince88 » Thu May 16, 2013 3:24 pm

littleprince88 wrote:
Yeah but I'm a proud arrogant fuck and that is just...out of the question.


And what I mean by that is that I do have other aspirations that I think these schools would only diminish my already dismal chances.

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unclepete
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby unclepete » Thu May 16, 2013 3:25 pm

littleprince88 wrote:
Also another family friend who started an org that helps people of color who go to law school.



Are you a POC?

littleprince88
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby littleprince88 » Thu May 16, 2013 3:28 pm

unclepete wrote:
littleprince88 wrote:
Also another family friend who started an org that helps people of color who go to law school.



Are you a POC?


yes

hablo espanol.

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Mick Haller
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Mick Haller » Thu May 16, 2013 3:42 pm

You should work your URM status and get a full ride somewhere decent. Don't make a hasty and bad decision to go deep into debt at Hastings or Loyola.

littleprince88
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby littleprince88 » Thu May 16, 2013 3:48 pm

Mick Haller wrote:You should work your URM status and get a full ride somewhere decent. Don't make a hasty and bad decision to go deep into debt at Hastings or Loyola.



With my numbers alone, I don't think I would have been accepted to either school had it not been for me being a minority. Just sayin'. I got into lower ranked school and got no money at all.

Civic Duty
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Civic Duty » Thu May 16, 2013 4:08 pm

littleprince88 wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:You should work your URM status and get a full ride somewhere decent. Don't make a hasty and bad decision to go deep into debt at Hastings or Loyola.



With my numbers alone, I don't think I would have been accepted to either school had it not been for me being a minority. Just sayin'. I got into lower ranked school and got no money at all.


I think you are opening up a can of worms making that statement. TLS goers will mostly believe you shouldn't be in law school period. Most people on this forum believe if you can't get into a T14 don't go. I am not saying to go or not go to law school but it seems like you have a supportive family. So with that being said if you have people who are willing to give you financial support during and after law school go for it. I think it is fine for others to make you aware of the risks you are taking but it is wrong to tell people not to attend law school. No one knows what your outcome will actually be and it is your risk to take.

littleprince88
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby littleprince88 » Thu May 16, 2013 4:14 pm

Civic Duty wrote:
littleprince88 wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:You should work your URM status and get a full ride somewhere decent. Don't make a hasty and bad decision to go deep into debt at Hastings or Loyola.



With my numbers alone, I don't think I would have been accepted to either school had it not been for me being a minority. Just sayin'. I got into lower ranked school and got no money at all.


I think you are opening up a can of worms making that statement. TLS goers will mostly believe you shouldn't be in law school period. Most people on this forum believe if you can't get into a T14 don't go. I am not saying to go or not go to law school but it seems like you have a supportive family. So with that being said if you have people who are willing to give you financial support during and after law school go for it. I think it is fine for others to make you aware of the risks you are taking but it is wrong to tell people not to attend law school. No one knows what your outcome will actually be and it is your risk to take.


I fully expected it. I'm just totally unsure of what to do honestly. I have a week to respond to Hastings. So that's why I even bother with posting a thread. I think people have been pretty civil regardless and I actually anticipated more hostility.

But yeah, I think what can be said has been said. I'm leaning towards Hastings.

BigZuck
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 17, 2013 8:53 pm

What are these aspirations that an even worse CA school would lock you out of?

If you have a truly guaranteed job then just get the degree as cheaply as possible like Mick said. To do otherwise would make no sense.

All of these options are objectively bad. Retake or don't go or do what Mick said. I mean if you don't want to listen to us elitists echoing back and forth in our chamber then at least listen to someone who has gone through the process at one of these types of schools.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby CO2016YEAH » Fri May 17, 2013 9:12 pm

I've considered the same choices. You've probably seen my threads. I was deadly against retaking at first but am now considering it. The job situation is downright scary.

Even with a job lined up, I would still shoot for a decent school rather than an unaccredited true shithole. I don't want the Thomas Jefferson/California Online Law School/People's College brand with me forever. True, the schools you listed aren't HYS but they are still good schools.

If retaking is definitively not an option I would chose Loyola, as I'm not a fan of cold weather and I have ties to and truly love SoCal. Both are respected schools in CA (many on TLS will say otherwise but tens of thousands in CA on the bench and in firms of all sizes will vehemently disagree with them).

Data indicates there is a slight bump for BigLaw/firm jobs at Hastings (the difference is almost negligible). Chose if you want NorCal or SoCal and hit the ground running.

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Mick Haller
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Mick Haller » Fri May 17, 2013 9:43 pm

littleprince88 wrote:Question: Is there no point in thinking long term?

Yes, I need a job out of school. That's number 1. But in the long term would any of these schools benefit more?


Short term thinking is at least as critical. People think "oh, the economy is bad so I will sit in law school for three years and profit later." No, because OCI is 12 months away from the day you start law school.

And your first job is by far the most important. The learning curve is incredibly steep. If you don't get quality training and work experience immediately after law school, your odds of becoming a successful lawyer are minuscule.

These two schools give you a 50/50 shot of even getting your foot in the door. In terms of setting you up for a desirable and (relatively) lucrative, long term career? Maybe 25-30% chance?

Think short term AND long term.

Ti Malice
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Ti Malice » Sat May 18, 2013 1:32 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:Both are respected schools in CA (many on TLS will say otherwise but tens of thousands in CA on the bench and in firms of all sizes will vehemently disagree with them).


No one on TLS cares whether they're respected in CA or not, because the opinions of out-of-touch boomers who entered the profession at a time when law degrees were both affordable and a safe bet have no relevance for today's law school applicants. Lawyering jobs are what matters. Both of these schools, despite leaving students who debt-finance their educations owing $225-260K at graduation, do an atrociously bad job of placing their grads into FT/LT JD-required work.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby CO2016YEAH » Sat May 18, 2013 1:38 am

Ti Malice wrote:
CO2016YEAH wrote:Both are respected schools in CA (many on TLS will say otherwise but tens of thousands in CA on the bench and in firms of all sizes will vehemently disagree with them).


No one on TLS cares whether they're respected in CA or not, because the opinions of out-of-touch boomers who entered the profession at a time when law degrees were both affordable and a safe bet have no relevance for today's law school applicants. Lawyering jobs are what matters. Both of these schools, despite leaving students who debt-finance their educations owing $225-260K at graduation, do an atrociously bad job of placing their grads into FT/LT JD-required work.


Self-studying can get you admitted to the bar in CA. Unaccredited schools can help in bar prep. People who pursue these routes are invariably in a worse position for finding a job. Also, boomers are less out of touch than you think, especially boomers in the legal profession that hire new associates. A lot of these boomers (and even non boomers) in Ca went to Hastings or Loyola.

Edit: Also, whether or not TLS posters care if these schools are respected is irrelevant to my post and to the fact that these are better degrees to have than one from an unaccredited bar prep school.

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Micdiddy
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Micdiddy » Sat May 18, 2013 2:13 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
CO2016YEAH wrote:Both are respected schools in CA (many on TLS will say otherwise but tens of thousands in CA on the bench and in firms of all sizes will vehemently disagree with them).


No one on TLS cares whether they're respected in CA or not, because the opinions of out-of-touch boomers who entered the profession at a time when law degrees were both affordable and a safe bet have no relevance for today's law school applicants. Lawyering jobs are what matters. Both of these schools, despite leaving students who debt-finance their educations owing $225-260K at graduation, do an atrociously bad job of placing their grads into FT/LT JD-required work.


Self-studying can get you admitted to the bar in CA. Unaccredited schools can help in bar prep. People who pursue these routes are invariably in a worse position for finding a job. Also, boomers are less out of touch than you think, especially boomers in the legal profession that hire new associates. A lot of these boomers (and even non boomers) in Ca went to Hastings or Loyola.

Edit: Also, whether or not TLS posters care if these schools are respected is irrelevant to my post and to the fact that these are better degrees to have than one from an unaccredited bar prep school.


But that point is irrelevant to whether op should go to them...
And obviously people involved in hiring are more in touch with modern realities. And for whatever reason, they are not hiring many Hastings and Loyola grads. Numbers don't lie.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby CO2016YEAH » Sat May 18, 2013 2:24 am

All true. And I'm not saying that OP should go. However, OP has made it clear he/she is going somewhere. My argument is that these are better options (as far as OP's legal career goes, not necessarily pertaining to debt, which OP has claimed to be a non-issue) than is beginning his/her career with a degree from a true shithole.

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Micdiddy
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Micdiddy » Sat May 18, 2013 2:43 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:All true. And I'm not saying that OP should go. However, OP has made it clear he/she is going somewhere. My argument is that these are better options (as far as OP's legal career goes, not necessarily pertaining to debt, which OP has claimed to be a non-issue) than is beginning his/her career with a degree from a true shithole.


Fair enough

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sublime
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby sublime » Sat May 18, 2013 5:38 am

..

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North
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby North » Sat May 18, 2013 8:56 am

CO2016YEAH wrote:All true. And I'm not saying that OP should go. However, OP has made it clear he/she is going somewhere. My argument is that these are better options (as far as OP's legal career goes, not necessarily pertaining to debt, which OP has claimed to be a non-issue) than is beginning his/her career with a degree from a true shithole.

That there are shittier shitholes doesn't mean that these places aren't shitholes too. Being able to say "there are EVEN WORSE decisions to be made" isn't a plus for these schools. They're ruining lives too.

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jbagelboy
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby jbagelboy » Sat May 18, 2013 12:04 pm

Im just glad CO2016 is considering becoming CO2017 with a retake. Too bad about his TLS account, though.. Small price to pay all things considered.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby CO2016YEAH » Sat May 18, 2013 1:42 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Im just glad CO2016 is considering becoming CO2017 with a retake. Too bad about his TLS account, though.. Small price to pay all things considered.


Ha! Right. I'm hoping I'll be able to sacrifice this account and to make a CO2017YEAH account without getting banned for alting, if I roll ahead with this plan. :D

Danteshek
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Danteshek » Sat May 18, 2013 1:46 pm

As long as you know what you are getting into.... I'm happy to discuss LLS offline if you like... Just PM

And if you're desperate to know what I've been up to... just click on my profile...

LLS '12

chugachjed
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby chugachjed » Sat May 18, 2013 1:58 pm

littleprince88 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
How strong are these connections? If you truly have a guaranteed job, I still wouldn't go to law school unless it was a job that paid more and had better working conditions than your current job.


My current job pays 20k a year...anything would be better than this.

Connections are strong. One attorney has been a family friend for thirty years. My dad helped him get started. He has a small practice and knows a lot of people. Also another family friend who started an org that helps people of color who go to law school.

Mick Haller wrote:Alumni network does not matter if you have a job lined up already. And this is a small factor in any event.

If I had connections and a job waiting for me, I would literally go to the cheapest school in California. Even if that means an unaccredited law school like Monterey or San Joaquin.


Yeah but I'm a proud arrogant fuck and that is just...out of the question. Not that Hastings or lls are HYS, but still.

I get you've been through all of this already, so I really do appreciate your candor. Considering the odds you beat, I do take your advice seriously.


?? You make 20K a year and describe yourself as "a proud arrogant fuck?" Maybe you better reevaluate your self image.

BigZuck
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby BigZuck » Sat May 18, 2013 2:24 pm

Danteshek wrote:As long as you know what you are getting into.... I'm happy to discuss LLS offline if you like... Just PM

And if you're desperate to know what I've been up to... just click on my profile...

LLS '12


Are you saying you're a success story? Looks like you're just spending a lot more money to collect degrees. How is this all a good thing? I'm genuinely curious. And please don't respond in your normal abrasive and obnoxious way, TYIA.

Danteshek
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Danteshek » Sat May 18, 2013 3:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Danteshek wrote:As long as you know what you are getting into.... I'm happy to discuss LLS offline if you like... Just PM

And if you're desperate to know what I've been up to... just click on my profile...

LLS '12


Are you saying you're a success story? Looks like you're just spending a lot more money to collect degrees. How is this all a good thing? I'm genuinely curious. And please don't respond in your normal abrasive and obnoxious way, TYIA.


Depends on how you look at it, Big Zuck.

From my perspective this is an extraordinary opportunity to solidify my fluency in Russian and French (and possibly learn a fourth language), live abroad for awhile, and develop true regional expertise. I'm also looking forward to expanding my network in Moscow (I have a number of Russian friends at Georgetown who are moving back to Moscow. We are going to the Sochi Olympics together).

Another factor for me is my desire to pass on my family's values and international outlook to the children I will have with my fiancee in 2-4 years. Growing up in France and attending French schools for 6 years when I was little had a massive impact on my world view and life in general. When I started law school I did not think I would have this opportunity, but now it has presented itself.

I am also closing the book on an unfortunate experience that sent me on the path to law school in 2008. I had a job offer in Moscow that was rescinded because the managing partner of the private equity firm had a stroke and died.

My total debt is only ~$140,000, which I will have no problem staying current on. Fellowship ($120,000 over the next two years, plus $10,000 to pay for emergencies/health) is paying for everything and then some... I don't have to pay tuition in Moscow (because I received a full scholarship from the government) and my rent will subsidized $8 / month.

I'll also (most likely) teach Russian law students for extra money and to meet additional Russian lawyers (the pay is only ~105,000 rubles a semester, but still)... I may also work in a law firm during the second year (standard in Russia), or possibly a think tank or other NGO. During this entire time I will be involving myself with the relevant ABA committees and traveling quite a bit within and outside of the CIS.

I'm also really excited about studying at the HSE.

There are many ways to think about this. I am choosing to focus on the positive :)

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Dr. Dre
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Re: LOYOLA (IN CA) v. UC HASTINGS

Postby Dr. Dre » Sat May 18, 2013 5:54 pm

So Danteshek was one of the few from LLS that is actually successful? Big deal, it doesn't mean absolutely anything. It should not influence OP's decision to not to retake.

Don't waste your time trying to start an argument, BigZuck.
Last edited by Dr. Dre on Sun May 19, 2013 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.




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