South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

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lawpurgatory
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South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby lawpurgatory » Wed May 15, 2013 1:36 pm

Yes yes, it seems slightly obvious in regards to rankings that usf is higher up there but the employment rate for STCL are pretty great. I've been accepted to Seattle, usf, and STCL. Wait listed at northeastern (which I would go to in the end if I can get off of it) but as of right now it's a debate between being in a saturated market in a great city and taking my chances at a job, or going to an economically more stable state with better job prospects but extreme immobility and a lot lower tuition.

Take a year off retake, I wouldn't go to either, blah blah blah I'll save you the trouble - I'm going to either one of the three this coming fall and it's a personal decision. Just seeking some feedback from others who are weighing their options as well who may have insight to each schools personal attributes. Thank you!

empyreanrrv
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby empyreanrrv » Wed May 15, 2013 1:40 pm

Please fill this out so we can help you out better: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

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stillwater
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby stillwater » Wed May 15, 2013 1:44 pm

lawpurgatory wrote:Yes yes, it seems slightly obvious in regards to rankings that usf is higher up there but the employment rate for STCL are pretty great. I've been accepted to Seattle, usf, and STCL. Wait listed at northeastern (which I would go to in the end if I can get off of it) but as of right now it's a debate between being in a saturated market in a great city and taking my chances at a job, or going to an economically more stable state with better job prospects but extreme immobility and a lot lower tuition.

Take a year off retake, I wouldn't go to either, blah blah blah I'll save you the trouble - I'm going to either one of the three this coming fall and it's a personal decision. Just seeking some feedback from others who are weighing their options as well who may have insight to each schools personal attributes. Thank you!


the employment for none of these is "pretty great"

looks like another post seeking validation where none is to be given. you also seem geographically confused. where do you have ties?

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romothesavior
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 15, 2013 1:47 pm

In what universe does South Texas have great employment statistics? Their employment score is decent, but the complete lack of placement into big firms makes me think that the average graduate is working in rural Texas doing DUI's and traffic tickets.

Did you draw these schools out of a hat? Do you have any ties to these regions? Either way, none of them is a good idea unless they are free.

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nickb285
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 15, 2013 1:50 pm

stillwater wrote:looks like another post seeking validation where none is to be given


This. I'm by no means an elitist, but if you've read enough TLS to know that everyone's going to tell you to retake, why would you bother asking?

OP, none of these schools are a good idea. But considering that you're just too special a snowflake to retake, it's gotta be STCL. USF is by far the worst of the lot, you get a 1 in 5 chance at a lawyer job and it'll cost you over $200,000 to take that shot. Seattle isn't much better. STCL at least places over half of their grads in real jobs, and while it's going to be rural Texas/Houston shitlaw or nothing, it's still better than unemployment, and tuition isn't as retardedly expensive. Oh, and Northeastern would be an awful idea also, it's on the same level as Seattle.

The best option, by far, is to retake, because unless you have some kind of monetary assistance offer that expires if you don't go this year, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever not to retake. If you're too lazy and impatient to retake so that you don't go to a crap school with crap job prospects at sticker, then you're too lazy and impatient to go to law school.

timbs4339
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 15, 2013 1:52 pm

You have no money at any, correct?

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nickb285
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 15, 2013 1:53 pm

timbs4339 wrote:You have no money at any, correct?


He doesn't need scholarships, he's so special that he'll get NYC biglaw out of USF.

BigZuck
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 15, 2013 1:59 pm

romothesavior wrote:In what universe does South Texas have great employment statistics? Their employment score is decent, but the complete lack of placement into big firms makes me think that the average graduate is working in rural Texas doing DUI's and traffic tickets.

Did you draw these schools out of a hat? Do you have any ties to these regions? Either way, none of them is a good idea unless they are free.



Houston is a lot of things but I wouldn't exactly call it "rural." For the most part that's where grads from this school work unless you know something that I don't. I know a fair bit about this school though, I actually applied there last cycle (doh!)

As far as TTTTs go STCL is probably the very best. Houston is a very large city with a large legal market (4th in the country for both I believe) and grads from Houston schools benefit from the fact that there aren't a lot of local law schools that feed into the market. So STCL is kind of uniquely lucky in that regard.

However, OP, if these were my choices I would not go to law school. I would only attend STCL if it was free, I had fairly strong ties to Houston, and I was totally ok with working small law in Houston long term. Sounds like at least two of these criteria don't apply to you so this school should be out. All the other schools are really bad, not worth attending

Retake or don't go.

BigZuck
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 15, 2013 2:20 pm

Also OP:

Last year I was facing STCL with 15K a year, instate sticker at the University of Houston, 12K at Santa Clara, etc., etc.

This year I was offered 30K a year at Cornell and Duke, 18K at Michigan, 23K at Northwestern, full ride at Washington University in St. Louis, etc., etc. and I will be attending the University of Texas with instate tuition+21K a year.

Literally the only thing different about my application is an LSAT score that is 7 points higher. I got like 12 more questions right on some dumb test and my results changed dramatically.

Retake.

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byronmullens
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby byronmullens » Wed May 15, 2013 2:24 pm

Wait so you have never been to Houston and considering going there??? Legal hiring w/ the exception of some biglawl jerbs is very local, and no big lawl is going to happen out of any of those. Look lawl shcool isn't "fun" it competitive, legal work isn't boston legal or law and order.

People are saying to retake not because they are making fun of school, or think you are dumb. Honestly a lot of the ppl on here didn't score so well the first time they took LSAT, then they took it again and it changed their prospects dramatically. I personally raised my score 8 points which was the difference between attending the local flagship at sticker or being offer full ride, which I turned down b/c a much better school offered me 75% schoolarship w/ zero stips. You can't make 100's of thousands as easily as one can studying for LSAT.

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romothesavior
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 15, 2013 2:27 pm

I was speaking somewhat hyperbolically. Fine, DUIs and traffic tickets in and around Houston.

In any case, OP doesn't seem to have money or ties to any of these schools. Going to any would be monumentally stupid.

BigZuck
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 15, 2013 2:33 pm

romothesavior wrote:I was speaking somewhat hyperbolically. Fine, DUIs and traffic tickets in and around Houston.

In any case, OP doesn't seem to have money or ties to any of these schools. Going to any would be monumentally stupid.


Fair enough, I can't dispute any of this. STCL has a niche that it serves but it's employment stats are certainly not great and it really isn't an option for the OP.

PRgradBYU
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed May 15, 2013 2:39 pm

romothesavior wrote:Did you draw these schools out of a hat?


+1. Seems like an arbitrary selection of schools to me. The only thing they have in common is their poor employment prospects.

lawpurgatory wrote:Take a year off retake, I wouldn't go to either, blah blah blah I'll save you the trouble - I'm going to either one of the three this coming fall and it's a personal decision.


If you already know the answers you're going to receive (and already have received), why bother posting on here?

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby WokeUpInACar » Wed May 15, 2013 3:09 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
+1. Seems like an arbitrary selection of schools to me. The only thing they have in common is their poor employment prospectsthey let almost everyone in.

If you already know the answers you're going to receive (and already have received), why bother posting on here?

Ftfy

sparty99
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby sparty99 » Wed May 15, 2013 3:30 pm

lawpurgatory wrote:Yes yes, it seems slightly obvious in regards to rankings that usf is higher up there but the employment rate for STCL are pretty great. I've been accepted to Seattle, usf, and STCL. Wait listed at northeastern (which I would go to in the end if I can get off of it) but as of right now it's a debate between being in a saturated market in a great city and taking my chances at a job, or going to an economically more stable state with better job prospects but extreme immobility and a lot lower tuition.

Take a year off retake, I wouldn't go to either, blah blah blah I'll save you the trouble - I'm going to either one of the three this coming fall and it's a personal decision. Just seeking some feedback from others who are weighing their options as well who may have insight to each schools personal attributes. Thank you!


RETAKE

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shifty_eyed
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby shifty_eyed » Wed May 15, 2013 4:17 pm

STCL has a great reputation in Houston among laypeople. When I told people I was applying to law school, so many people seemed surprised to hear that I would consider UH over STCL.

Out of those 3, it's your best option. But like mentioned above, just because I'd rather chop a foot off than my arm, doesn't mean I should.

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Micdiddy
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby Micdiddy » Wed May 15, 2013 4:31 pm

This must be a flame right? How can people be so aware of what TLS is going to say, and still make this post?
Op must have seen dozens and dozens of similar threads that devolved into "retake or don't go" vs."ELITIST!! ROAR!"
Why would this thread be any different (except, thus far, the anti-elitist have kept off it)?

Op, what many fail to understand is that the advice we are giving you IS WITH YOUR BEST INTEREST IN MIND. Each person itt is a separate human being thinking through these choices independently and yet still reaching the same logical conclusion. You can ruin your life however you want, just don't expect justification for it.

Retake or don't go is the best thing for you. Good luck!

utlaw2007
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed May 15, 2013 6:53 pm

Houston is a great legal market. South Texas even has a decent rep among Houston lay people. But you know what? So what? I can tell you that the large majority, like maybe all but grads in a class that you can count on one or two hands, actually get jobs with decent sized law firms.

I would guess that most of the grads who do get jobs out of South Texas, as another poster suggested, fight traffic tickets or prosecute traffic tickets. They aren't even defending DUI's. They aren't defending anyone in the the criminal district courthouses. The ones that are, they have opened up there own shop. Nobody is hired to do these things out of South Texas. Criminal defense firms are few and far between. And if they ever hire someone, it's going to be someone from UT or a family member. You do have a shot at working for the DA's office of a local county coming out of South Texas.

The reason why South Texas appears to have it good in Houston, and I am from Houston and have lived here all of my life, is because there are so many small law firm partners that went to South Texas and had to start their own thing. Some of those partners are doing very well. But their associates are not if they even have any. And that is even if you are hired to become an associate. Small law firm hiring in this economy is absolutely atrocious. You have to have a few years of experience in a specific field before you would even be considered. And that is if they hire. These firms do not hire regularly.

I would not even attend South Texas in this economy if it were free unless I already had a job lined up or my parent(s) had prominent connections in the city AND I had the balls to open up my own shop (which I do and I have, but that is just not the norm. The risk involved is super high and it takes a certain kind of person to pull it off). Otherwise, you better be first in your class if you want a decent job.

Your other option is to work for the DA's office as a prosecutor. And even then, you'd have to compete with every other South Texas grad that comes out because it is really their only employment option.

South Texas is really only a serviceable law school if you are prepared to open up your own shop because chances are that nobody will hire you ITE. If you are hired, you will be prosecuting low level crimes. If you want that gig at a personal injury firm ITE, you better place very well in your class at South Texas. If you want to practice other areas of law not named criminal or personal injury, you can forget about it unless you finish at the very top.

The employment clout that South Texas had in Houston was BEFORE the economy collapsed. And it wasn't even that good back then. The rep it has in Houston as a trial education machine is because people just do not know any better. I can assure you that it is not true. Sure, there are always exceptions, but it's not like the school will turn you into a well oiled trial lawyer.
Last edited by utlaw2007 on Wed May 15, 2013 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

utlaw2007
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed May 15, 2013 7:09 pm

I know this is purely anecdotal, but I must share. I filed a lawsuit for a friend's fiance's family against a company. The opposing counsel was a guy that went to South Texas. That dude was one of the most incompetent lawyers I have ever seen. He would try to intimidate me with archaic legal speak in emails. That was actually pretty hilarious. I guess he thought it made him sound intelligent. I have a colleague from UVA Law who has also opened up his own shop. He does more small corporate transactional work, but he does handle some litigation. I actually could not deal with that case anymore and withdrew. I passed it off to my colleague. He still has the case, but the other day, we talked about how poor a lawyer that guy is. All he does is try to intimidate, like if we are all on a school playground. He'd get his a$$ whooped if we actually were. So that fact makes his intimidation tactics more absurd.

In fairness, I do have a mentor that went to South Texas. He and another high school classmate of mine have opened their own shops and make over a mil a year. My mentor is an exceptional trial lawyer. That is why he is my mentor. But he is a very rare exception.

The main point is that if you do not have a plan for opening up your own shop or if you do not finish really high in your class, you will likely be a career document reviewer coming out of South Texas.

Ti Malice
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby Ti Malice » Wed May 15, 2013 7:24 pm

lawpurgatory wrote:
Yes yes, it seems slightly obvious in regards to rankings that usf is higher up there but the employment rate for STCL are pretty great. I've been accepted to Seattle, usf, and STCL. Wait listed at northeastern (which I would go to in the end if I can get off of it) but as of right now it's a debate between being in a saturated market in a great city and taking my chances at a job, or going to an economically more stable state with better job prospects but extreme immobility and a lot lower tuition.


What on earth makes you think that any of these degrees would give you any mobility at all? If you were lucky enough to get a job at all out of any of these schools, it would not be very far from where the school is located.

It just amazes me that you obviously know next to nothing about how legal hiring works and yet are content with making a $200K+ decision without having done any real thinking or research on the matter. Do you have strong ties to any of these areas? Going to a law school somewhere is not enough to create strong ties. What could possibly make you think that an employer in one of these markets would even think about wasting their time and resources on you -- the flight-risk outsider -- over someone who has spent most or all of their life in the area? You do realize that the legal economy is not roaring along, right? It's not like anyone is desperate to have you, especially out of any of these schools. Any employer that you would have a shot at working for would be more interested in one of the dozens of your desperate fellow classmates who are from the area than they would be in you.

You have exactly two non-idiotic options: retake or don't go.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri May 17, 2013 7:22 am

University of San Francisco has a terrible job placement. I would warn you not to go there.

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North
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Re: South Texas vs. University of San Francisco vs. Seattle U

Postby North » Fri May 17, 2013 9:48 am

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