Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

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nutellapancakes
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Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby nutellapancakes » Mon May 13, 2013 7:16 am

I recently received a full ride to both Temple and Villanova, and am having trouble choosing between them. I anticipate COL to be about the same, as I will most likely be living in the same area regardless of the school I attend. After graduation, I would ideally like to work in either Delaware or Philly. I am unsure of which school places better in Delaware, although I have heard it is Villanova. I am also concerned about the recent drop in Villanova's rankings due to the grade-inflation scandal. Although it has a good reputation with employers in the area, should I shy away from Villanova due to the potential negative effects of the scandal? Any advice would be great! Thanks!

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Mon May 13, 2013 8:02 am

Temple >>> Nova for Philly. Not sure about DE, although I doubt either option is great.

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Justathought
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Justathought » Mon May 13, 2013 10:29 am

Temple 2L here.

I know quite a few folks that are working in DE this summer. The school definitely considers Wilmington part of its home market. We always have a considerable percentage of employers at our various OCIs and job fairs from DE, so I don't think you can go wrong with a full ride from Temple if you're interested in the market.

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dawyzest1
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby dawyzest1 » Mon May 13, 2013 2:54 pm

Justathought wrote:Temple 2L here.

I know quite a few folks that are working in DE this summer. The school definitely considers Wilmington part of its home market. We always have a considerable percentage of employers at our various OCIs and job fairs from DE, so I don't think you can go wrong with a full ride from Temple if you're interested in the market.


+1. I'd go to Temple, but it would be hard to turn down time on 'Nova's campus.

Main Line>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>North Philly

HeavenWood
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed May 15, 2013 1:20 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.

Just pick the school with the less onerous scholarship stipulations.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 15, 2013 2:35 am

HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.

Just pick the school with the less onerous scholarship stipulations.


I don't think the difference is steep, but I also heard like richgrimes that Temple associates are more visible in Philly firms than Villanova. I'd have to visit both if I was going to make a choice like this, and I'd probably just pick whichever school I liked best.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed May 15, 2013 7:51 am

HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.


It's not TLS "wisdom," Temple has a much stronger alumni network than 'Nova in Philly.

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby hds2388 » Wed May 15, 2013 8:20 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.


It's not TLS "wisdom," Temple has a much stronger alumni network than 'Nova in Philly.


How do you quantify this?

I just did a quick search on three random big philly firms (Cozen, Drinker, Morgan Lewis) and two out of three had more 'Nova people than Temple. I can keep checking, but what info are you using?

Despite its slip in the rankings 'Nova continuously ranks in the top 50 schools i/r/t placement at NLJ 250 firms (Temple has either ranked lower or not at all on this list). This to me suggests a stronger alumni network/tradition of hiring 'Nova grads.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I know a bit about the Philly market and it seems to me like your statement is incorrect.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong.

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Justathought
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Justathought » Wed May 15, 2013 10:53 am

Its pretty even, but here are some more firms.

Reed Smith: T: 44 V:27
Dechert: T:41 V:10
Pepper: T: 49 V: 64
White & Williams: T:35 V:31,
DLA: T:9 V:16
Obermayer: T: 22 V:31
Blank Rome: T:60 V:37
Ballard: T:5 pages of results V:3 pages
Schnader: T:19 V:7
Archer: T:18 V:23
Fox: T:26 V:13

hds2388
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby hds2388 » Wed May 15, 2013 11:01 am

Justathought wrote:Its pretty even, but here are some more firms.

Reed Smith: T: 44 V:27
Dechert: T:41 V:10
Pepper: T: 49 V: 64
White & Williams: T:35 V:31,
DLA: T:9 V:16
Obermayer: T: 22 V:31
Blank Rome: T:60 V:37
Ballard: T:5 pages of results V:3 pages
Schnader: T:19 V:7
Archer: T:18 V:23
Fox: T:26 V:13


Thanks for looking that up -- it clearly cuts the other way from what I said. I still wouldn't necessarily consider it to be a decisive difference, if I were making this decision though.

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby nick417 » Wed May 15, 2013 12:01 pm

hds2388 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.


It's not TLS "wisdom," Temple has a much stronger alumni network than 'Nova in Philly.


How do you quantify this?

I just did a quick search on three random big philly firms (Cozen, Drinker, Morgan Lewis) and two out of three had more 'Nova people than Temple. I can keep checking, but what info are you using?

Despite its slip in the rankings 'Nova continuously ranks in the top 50 schools i/r/t placement at NLJ 250 firms (Temple has either ranked lower or not at all on this list). This to me suggests a stronger alumni network/tradition of hiring 'Nova grads.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I know a bit about the Philly market and it seems to me like your statement is incorrect.

Feel free to convince me I'm wrong.



Don't worry, he is incorrect. I have worked in the legal community in the Philly area for 5 years, Temple and Villanova are interchangeable. In fact, Villanova use to be better than Temple by a mile. My employer told me that when he went to law school, Villanova vs. Penn law was a tough decision. Obviously, times have changed but I wouldn't worry about rankings when looking at the two. Villanova's campus is much, much nicer and is much safer. The law school is brand new and is easy to get to from off campus. The places to live around Villanova are much cheaper than anything you will find in the city also. The only difference is Temple is much cheaper if you are a Pennsylvania resident. However, if you have a scholarship offer from both, I would think Villanova would be the better choice.

Personally, choose the school you like better and don't worry about the meaningless rankings between Temple and Villanova. Nova's rankings are skewed anyway because of the past Dean and administrators screw ups.

Keasbey
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Keasbey » Wed May 15, 2013 12:20 pm

In the off chance you lose your $$$ I'd much rather pay temples tuition than nova's.

cpajd
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby cpajd » Wed May 15, 2013 12:21 pm

From seeing both campuses, I'd agree there's a huge difference between the two. I'd say when two schools are pretty close in the big stuff, then the tie breakers go to things like the "feel" of the school. If it were me, I'd go Villanova on that basis.

HeavenWood
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Wed May 15, 2013 2:12 pm

The reason there are fewer Villanova grads in Philly firms is that Villanova has a more widely distributed alumni base, and IIRC, Temple has significantly larger class sizes as well. Once upon a time, Villanova grads scattered to an extent--quite a few older alums in NYC, in fact. Temple grads have historically stayed local. Obviously neither are really portable in this day and age, but the vestiges from the '70s and '80s still skew things. That does not change the fact both are viewed as equals in the Philly legal market.

ETA: what nick said.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed May 15, 2013 4:32 pm

nick417 wrote:Don't worry, he is incorrect. I have worked in the legal community in the Philly area for 5 years, Temple and Villanova are interchangeable. In fact, Villanova use to be better than Temple by a mile. My employer told me that when he went to law school, Villanova vs. Penn law was a tough decision. Obviously, times have changed but I wouldn't worry about rankings when looking at the two. Villanova's campus is much, much nicer and is much safer. The law school is brand new and is easy to get to from off campus. The places to live around Villanova are much cheaper than anything you will find in the city also. The only difference is Temple is much cheaper if you are a Pennsylvania resident. However, if you have a scholarship offer from both, I would think Villanova would be the better choice.

Personally, choose the school you like better and don't worry about the meaningless rankings between Temple and Villanova. Nova's rankings are skewed anyway because of the past Dean and administrators screw ups.


I never said Temple was a better school than 'Nova, just that it has a stronger alumni network for Philly (which it does). First, Temple has been around for about half a century longer and has larger class sizes than 'Nova. Second, 'Nova grads spread out more, whereas Temple grads tend to congregate in Philly (look at the numbers from last year, nearly twice as many Temple grads stayed in PA). Third, from a pure value standpoint, Temple costs a substantial amount less than 'Nova ($75,000 less for PA residents), has slightly better overall job placement, and a lot less overall unemployment than 'Nova (13% v. 27% last year). The only thing 'Nova has going for it is that it places a few more kids into Biglaw, but let's be honest, gunning for Biglaw from either of these schools is a fool's errand. Other than wanting to avoid the shitty parts of Philly (a legit concern), I don't see any reason why someone would choose 'Nova over Temple when targeting Philly.

Edit: also lol @ deciding between 'Nova v. Penn

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
nick417 wrote:Don't worry, he is incorrect. I have worked in the legal community in the Philly area for 5 years, Temple and Villanova are interchangeable. In fact, Villanova use to be better than Temple by a mile. My employer told me that when he went to law school, Villanova vs. Penn law was a tough decision. Obviously, times have changed but I wouldn't worry about rankings when looking at the two. Villanova's campus is much, much nicer and is much safer. The law school is brand new and is easy to get to from off campus. The places to live around Villanova are much cheaper than anything you will find in the city also. The only difference is Temple is much cheaper if you are a Pennsylvania resident. However, if you have a scholarship offer from both, I would think Villanova would be the better choice.

Personally, choose the school you like better and don't worry about the meaningless rankings between Temple and Villanova. Nova's rankings are skewed anyway because of the past Dean and administrators screw ups.


I never said Temple was a better school than 'Nova, just that it has a stronger alumni network for Philly (which it does). First, Temple has been around for about half a century longer and has larger class sizes than 'Nova. Second, 'Nova grads spread out more, whereas Temple grads tend to congregate in Philly (look at the numbers from last year, nearly twice as many Temple grads stayed in PA). Third, from a pure value standpoint, Temple costs a substantial amount less than 'Nova ($75,000 less for PA residents), has slightly better overall job placement, and a lot less overall unemployment than 'Nova (13% v. 27% last year). The only thing 'Nova has going for it is that it places a few more kids into Biglaw, but let's be honest, gunning for Biglaw from either of these schools is a fool's errand. Other than wanting to avoid the shitty parts of Philly (a legit concern), I don't see any reason why someone would choose 'Nova over Temple when targeting Philly.

Edit: also lol @ deciding between 'Nova v. Penn

Re the bolded: that's how things worked in the days of old. Obviously things have changed.

And I looked at the LST reports. There's next to no difference as far as full-time, long-term, non-school-funded JD-required jobs go. Who cares if an additional 10% of Temple grads are Starbucks baristas or Trader Joe's team members.

For those deciding between Temple and Villanova, it's a simple matter of, "which school is cheaper?" and if all things really are equal, "which school has less onerous scholarship situations/which environment do you like more?

FWIW if I were in the OP's position, I'd pick Temple because I'd rather be able to easily commute from Center City than live out in the suburbs. But that's purely a matter of personal preference. IDK why some Temple peeps have such a superiority complex about this. I'm not sure if this is still the case but I remember when I was applying that Villanova gave a ton of full rides while most people applying to Temple with competitive numbers got next to nothing.

Lumieres
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Lumieres » Thu May 16, 2013 10:16 am

Honestly, being from the Philly region, if costs were equal, I would go to nova. I like the campus and facilities better, and everything else seems comparable.

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magp90
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby magp90 » Thu May 16, 2013 5:40 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.


It's not TLS "wisdom," Temple has a much stronger alumni network than 'Nova in Philly.

HeavenWood
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Thu May 16, 2013 7:27 pm

magp90 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:Temple >>> Nova for Philly.

LOL at this kernel of TLS "wisdom." Scandal/rankings drop or not, Temple and Villanova are still overwhelmingly seen as equals in the Philly market.


It's not TLS "wisdom," Temple has a much stronger alumni network than 'Nova in Philly.

I actually will concede that Temple has a solid pipeline into certain city government/non-preftigiouf local PI organizations, but beyond parts of those two areas, the difference is practically nil.

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Peyton » Thu May 16, 2013 7:39 pm

Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?

HeavenWood
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Thu May 16, 2013 7:42 pm

Peyton wrote:Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?

AFAIK not a ton. They're below RU-C, but *possibly* better than Widener.

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magp90
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby magp90 » Fri May 17, 2013 10:25 am

Peyton wrote:Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?


When they first opened up, Philly was kind of intrigued to see where it would go because of the co-op programs, but in the past year or two... they just haven't been able to reliably place people into jobs. They just don't have the network.

And for what it's worth, I have spoke to many, many Villanova grads who would go to Temple if given the option again.

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby Keasbey » Fri May 17, 2013 10:54 am

Peyton wrote:Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?


It seems as if Drexel jumped on the law school train for the income. When I went to their ASD in January I sat down with four or five other people and everyone's first question was "So. . . did you hear from Temple yet?" I think it was an irresponsible move to open up a law school in a city that already had five right before the legal market tanked.

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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby hds2388 » Fri May 17, 2013 11:06 am

magp90 wrote:
Peyton wrote:Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?


When they first opened up, Philly was kind of intrigued to see where it would go because of the co-op programs, but in the past year or two... they just haven't been able to reliably place people into jobs. They just don't have the network.

And for what it's worth, I have spoke to many, many Villanova grads who would go to Temple if given the option again.


Yeah, but we're talking T2 law schools here, so some of the people graduating from 'Nova without the job they imagined/wanted (or a job at all) would likely, in hindsight, say they wanted to go to the cheaper option (Temple), or an option that seemed rosier based on grass-is-greener reasoning.

Here, the OP is confronted with a situation with roughly identical costs. I think the numbers that have been thrown around here indicate the schools produce similar outcomes for graduates (the firms in Philly do tilt slightly toward Temple [perhaps explained by the greater number of grads], but the overall NLJ placement leans toward 'Nova). I think at this point, then, it makes the most sense to go with the campus/location/programming you like the most. It's a nice luxury for OP to be able to make this decision based solely on those factors.

HeavenWood
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Re: Temple (full) vs. Villanova (Full)

Postby HeavenWood » Fri May 17, 2013 11:37 am

hds2388 wrote:
magp90 wrote:
Peyton wrote:Is Drexel making any kind of a significant impact into Philly. Any?


When they first opened up, Philly was kind of intrigued to see where it would go because of the co-op programs, but in the past year or two... they just haven't been able to reliably place people into jobs. They just don't have the network.

And for what it's worth, I have spoke to many, many Villanova grads who would go to Temple if given the option again.


Yeah, but we're talking T2 law schools here, so some of the people graduating from 'Nova without the job they imagined/wanted (or a job at all) would likely, in hindsight, say they wanted to go to the cheaper option (Temple), or an option that seemed rosier based on grass-is-greener reasoning.

Here, the OP is confronted with a situation with roughly identical costs. I think the numbers that have been thrown around here indicate the schools produce similar outcomes for graduates (the firms in Philly do tilt slightly toward Temple [perhaps explained by the greater number of grads], but the overall NLJ placement leans toward 'Nova). I think at this point, then, it makes the most sense to go with the campus/location/programming you like the most. It's a nice luxury for OP to be able to make this decision based solely on those factors.

This. Obviously paying more for Villanova than Temple (or vice versa) would be ridiculous.




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