U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

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The Brainalist
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby The Brainalist » Mon May 13, 2013 8:36 pm

sinfiery wrote:I thought it was 20. Maybe less than expected then. Or very marginally indeed.


And yeah, haha. Well, if wins were equal to a higher ranking in the USNWR



No, you are right. It is 20. 20 is pretty substantial, IF each Ruby scholar replaces someone who would otherwise be a splitter, then that is 10 above median grades and 10 above median LSATs that Chicago would not have.

Ti Malice
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Ti Malice » Mon May 13, 2013 8:38 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:It doesn't look like it helped him for admissions though.


Harsh.

What hurt me at the one school I was rejected from was my low GPA and LSAT retake. I didn't expect my WE to be a boost, just standard.


Your retake didn't have anything to do with it. Your numbers were more than sufficient to sink you.

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sinfiery
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby sinfiery » Mon May 13, 2013 8:43 pm

It would make the most substantial impact if the splitters + URMs were at the margins of 25%. If you can hide them all at that 25% mark, you create the biggest gain for your numbers. Given the class size of UCHI, I think 20 perfect candidates allows one to really game numbers more than 9% or so if given that goal.

I think the median may not drop by much but that 25% is going to freefall definitely.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 8:50 pm

jbagelboy wrote:parents wouldn't have given me the money to go to law school. they supported me through college because that's what they said they would do. if I'd gone to UC Berkeley or something I wouldn't have gotten any more $ out of them for LS.

and having more than one degree ITE is very common. the majority of students graduating even from top schools are pursuing MDs, JDs, MBAs, Ph.Ds, ect. are they all wasting their time? Not if they want to work in those fields.

Also the education you receive from going to a good school, having small class sizes, intimate environment, ect. will benefit you in law school vis a vis receiving a more diluted education from a large public. so many students lack core critical thinking and writing skills or cultural knowledge. Lastly, you discredit "experiences", but even if you insist on only speaking of $$$, the people themselves who I met at my UG are invaluable, whether they be future clients in tech or my friend in my class who's dads a fed circuit court judge and would take me as a clerk if I really struck out on my own at CLS. I'm not sure the same connections exist universally


Uh, why not avoid the 200k schools to save your parents the money regardless of whether they would transfer it to law school or not? If your parents take you out to dinner, are you going to take them to the nicest steakhouse in town because WHY THE HELL NOT ITS NOT LIKE THEYRE GOING TO SPEND THAT MONEY ON MONEY FOR DINNER TOMORROW?!

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:00 pm

LOL at the people with the mindset of:

Attend your state school for cheap. Save money. And then go on to a prestigious graduate program.



It doesn't work that way anymore. Graduating from a state school takes 6 years. Do you think you will be able to connect well with your professors (in order to get that nice LOR)? Do you think you will get all the classes that you want?

Going to a small private for UG is where it's at. Plus, you get to meet kids from wealthier backgrounds and shiet.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:02 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:LOL at the people with the mindset of:

Attend your state school for cheap. Save money. And then go on to a prestigious graduate program.



It doesn't work that way anymore. Graduating from a state school takes 6 years. Do you think you will be able to connect well with your professors (in order to get that nice LOR)? Do you think you will get all the classes that you want?

Going to a small private for UG is where it's at. Plus, you get to meet kids from wealthier backgrounds and shiet.


Huh? How the hell does graduating from a state school take 6 years?

Small publics are where it is at. You get the cheap price AND the benefits of a smaller school.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:07 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
Huh? How the hell does graduating from a state school take 6 years?

Small publics are where it is at. You get the cheap price AND the benefits of a smaller school.



Graduating from a public university now takes ON AVERAGE 6 years to do.


And no. Going to a public university is not where it's at. You may think you're getting a deal because it's "cheaper" and because you may think you're getting the same education Tom gets from his private university.

But this is false.

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby philepistemer » Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
philepistemer wrote:As a rich person who spent like 50k on undergrad: lol, you are an idiot if you think you gained anything (besides your future wife) from the "prestigious" undergrad you went to. People (especially those who turned down ivies) get top consulting and finance jobs all the time from from flagships, and upper-level humanities classes are just as "intimate" at big state schools as they are at lib arts places. If you are into the life of the mind (as I am), good state schools have unparalleled course offerings and libraries.

But hey, we're going to the same school next year, and we'd probably get along well, so let me say that you sound like a good guy who will probably be successful.


Thanks! you too. I don't think the "consultant" thing is the main result (or gain), it's far more difficult to valuate in these terms, but I'll grant you I know as little about your experience as you could know about mine so we should refrain from making such judgments. FWIW I'm sure we're all a little sassier on the internet than we'd be in person. No one would tell me as a stranger to my face that my parents wasted money on my education, even if they thought it to themselves. And I'd probably fold and agree with you on such a trivial point just to be civil even if my pride had been ever so marginally injured :).

Here's to hoping such divisive, personal and subjective conversations keep at a minimum at Columbia! See you most likely in the fall :)


My post was probably too harsh, but you need to understand that I had to refrain from commenting on my high school friends' dumb decisions when they decided to spend 200k on tuition at wannabe-elite schools like Notre Dame and middling lib arts places. My post was the product of years of bottled up condescension, and if you went to hypscc, MIT, Williams, or Swarthmore, I partially retract some of the vitriol.

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby philepistemer » Mon May 13, 2013 9:25 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
Huh? How the hell does graduating from a state school take 6 years?

Small publics are where it is at. You get the cheap price AND the benefits of a smaller school.



Graduating from a public university now takes ON AVERAGE 6 years to do.


And no. Going to a public university is not where it's at. You may think you're getting a deal because it's "cheaper" and because you may think you're getting the same education Tom gets from his private university.

But this is false.


You need to take into account selection effects. I went to a huge public school "despite" 99.7th percentile ACT test scores. I graduated in significantly less time than 4 years, and I took 500-600 level classes with fewer than 20 people almost all the way through. Because of affiliative student orgs, I met several people with a similar background as me, and they typically ended up getting into top Ph.D programs, top professional schools, or elite consulting/finance firms following graduation. The economic research on this topic reflects my personal experience.

While you may get some sort of intangible value from a small private school, McKinsey, law school, and phd school still separate the wheat from the chaff using standardized tests.
Last edited by philepistemer on Mon May 13, 2013 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:25 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
Huh? How the hell does graduating from a state school take 6 years?

Small publics are where it is at. You get the cheap price AND the benefits of a smaller school.



Graduating from a public university now takes ON AVERAGE 6 years to do.


And no. Going to a public university is not where it's at. You may think you're getting a deal because it's "cheaper" and because you may think you're getting the same education Tom gets from his private university.

But this is false.


Because people take 6 years to graduate from a public school it takes 6 years to graduate? I'm pretty sure you have the same required credit hours. At my public school, you needed 120. I suppose if you wanted to take your time and fuck around, you could stretch that out (and apparently a lot of people do). But don't give me this bullshit that because lots of people take 6 years that that means that is how long it will take you.

With regards to quality of education, it depends if we're comparing places like Yale vs. University of Iowa or places like University of Iowa and Central College. Both Yale and Central College (in a tiny rural town in Iowa) are private schools that cost over $30,000 a year. I'll grant you that you're getting a better education at Yale than at a public school in Iowa. But no way in hell are you getting a substantively better education at Central College to justify the price difference.

And when you're going to law school, I fail to see why the level of UG even matters.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:26 pm

philepistemer wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
Huh? How the hell does graduating from a state school take 6 years?

Small publics are where it is at. You get the cheap price AND the benefits of a smaller school.



Graduating from a public university now takes ON AVERAGE 6 years to do.


And no. Going to a public university is not where it's at. You may think you're getting a deal because it's "cheaper" and because you may think you're getting the same education Tom gets from his private university.

But this is false.


You need to take into account selection effects. I went to a huge public school "despite" 99.9th percentile ACT test scores. I graduated in 2.5 years, and I took 500-600 level classes with fewer than 20 people almost all the way through. Because of affiliative student orgs, I met several people with a similar background as me, and they typically ended up getting into top Ph.D programs, top professional schools, or elite consulting/finance firms following graduation. The economic research on this topic reflects my personal experience.

While you may get some sort of intangible value from a small private school, McKinsey, law school, and phd school still separate the wheat from the chaff using standardized tests.


The primary thing private UG's give their students is special snowflake syndrome.

But I think we're being trolled.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:28 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:And when you're going to law school, I fail to see why the level of UG even matters.



This is true. GPA/LSAT are all that matter. But, usually small privates have grade inflation and so, it is better to go to them. Big publics have grading curves, and you'll get fucked even if you studied hard.

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 13, 2013 9:29 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:It doesn't look like it helped him for admissions though.


Harsh.

What hurt me at the one school I was rejected from was my low GPA and LSAT retake. I didn't expect my WE to be a boost, just standard.


Your retake didn't have anything to do with it. Your numbers were more than sufficient to sink you.


Im fully aware of this. Thats my point -- my softs & WE werent weak, my numbers were at H. I wasnt trying to suggest anything otherwise.

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 13, 2013 9:32 pm

philepistemer wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
philepistemer wrote:As a rich person who spent like 50k on undergrad: lol, you are an idiot if you think you gained anything (besides your future wife) from the "prestigious" undergrad you went to. People (especially those who turned down ivies) get top consulting and finance jobs all the time from from flagships, and upper-level humanities classes are just as "intimate" at big state schools as they are at lib arts places. If you are into the life of the mind (as I am), good state schools have unparalleled course offerings and libraries.

But hey, we're going to the same school next year, and we'd probably get along well, so let me say that you sound like a good guy who will probably be successful.


Thanks! you too. I don't think the "consultant" thing is the main result (or gain), it's far more difficult to valuate in these terms, but I'll grant you I know as little about your experience as you could know about mine so we should refrain from making such judgments. FWIW I'm sure we're all a little sassier on the internet than we'd be in person. No one would tell me as a stranger to my face that my parents wasted money on my education, even if they thought it to themselves. And I'd probably fold and agree with you on such a trivial point just to be civil even if my pride had been ever so marginally injured :).

Here's to hoping such divisive, personal and subjective conversations keep at a minimum at Columbia! See you most likely in the fall :)


My post was probably too harsh, but you need to understand that I had to refrain from commenting on my high school friends' dumb decisions when they decided to spend 200k on tuition at wannabe-elite schools like Notre Dame and middling lib arts places. My post was the product of years of bottled up condescension, and if you went to hypscc, MIT, Williams, or Swarthmore, I partially retract some of the vitriol.


I cant out myself too far but lets just say I attended a school among or equivalent to the schools you listed. I accept your retraction and I completely agree 200K for notre dame, usc, ect would be way too much

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:32 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:And when you're going to law school, I fail to see why the level of UG even matters.



This is true. GPA/LSAT are all that matter. But, usually small privates have grade inflation and so, it is better to go to them. Big publics have grading curves, and you'll get fucked even if you studied hard.


Where are you getting these generalizations from? I could conversely just say, "Big public schools are full of kids that don't give a shit so it's easy to be the top of your class while private schools are full of rich kids that are expected to do well so it's stiffer competition."

I think it's a pretty common consensus that, for the most part, UG is the one place where grades are directly tied to effort. I don't think the school itself will determine your GPA that much. Your major, however, likely will.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:35 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
I think it's a pretty common consensus that, for the most part, UG is the one place where grades are directly tied to effort. I don't think the school itself will determine your GPA that much.



You clearly did not go to a private university.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:38 pm

Public higher education was great 20 years ago, but not anymore.

Also, attending them is not CHEAPER. Private schools bust out that financial aid like nothing. Moreover, the average graduation time is four years. You get all the classes you want and you get great LORs (if you go to office hours). And it's all about those connections.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:48 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
I think it's a pretty common consensus that, for the most part, UG is the one place where grades are directly tied to effort. I don't think the school itself will determine your GPA that much.



You clearly did not go to a private university.


Meaning people get better grades going to private schools? I got 3.9 at a public school and I'm not very smart. Anyone else could get a 3.9 from a state school if they just put in a basic amount of effort.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon May 13, 2013 9:49 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
Meaning people get better grades going to private schools?



http://www.gradeinflation.com/

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Mon May 13, 2013 9:50 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
I think it's a pretty common consensus that, for the most part, UG is the one place where grades are directly tied to effort. I don't think the school itself will determine your GPA that much.



You clearly did not go to a private university.


Meaning people get better grades going to private schools? I got 3.9 at a public school and I'm not very smart. Anyone else could get a 3.9 from a state school if they just put in a basic amount of effort.


Seriously, state schools might have a curve, but people I know get 4.0s there and are bonafide idiots

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:56 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:Public higher education was great 20 years ago, but not anymore.

Also, attending them is not CHEAPER. Private schools bust out that financial aid like nothing. Moreover, the average graduation time is four years. You get all the classes you want and you get great LORs (if you go to office hours). And it's all about those connections.


Dude, where are you arguing all of this from? Public higher education isn't great anymore? How can someone even respond to a comment like that? I really don't think you have a grasp on public schools. Do you really think they are these institutions where TAs are teaching classes of 300 for 6 years straight?

Lots of public schools will have large first-year classes that are useless (though mine didn't...I never took a class with more than 60 in it). But when you get into your major classes, you will have the same teachers (or at least you should schedule to) and you will have small classes. Furthermore, do you really think you can't talk to professors at public schools? Hell, at my school, the philosophy professors would have students over for dinner. A public school is just like a private school with regards to LORs...so long as you talk to the professors outside of class, they will be no problem. Do I even have to point out that you can get equally good, if not better, "connections" from a public school?

And, believe it or not, attending public schools often is CHEAPER. Yes, you may get a scholarship to a private school but, writ large, you're gonna pay more to go to a private school. If you're honestly arguing that private schools are cheaper, then this conversation is pointless.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Mon May 13, 2013 9:59 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
Meaning people get better grades going to private schools?



http://www.gradeinflation.com/


"Ladies and gentlemen: Drop $150k on private school so you can gain the advantage of a softer curve ensuring those extra .2-.3 GPA points! Don't bother just putting in a basic degree of effort to just get a killer GPA at either school because these private schools will give you AN AVERAGE .2-.3 GPA BOOST!"

(And nevermind the fact that you are arguing averages of averages. You're saying that because, ON AVERAGE, private schools curve .2-.3 for THE AVERAGE STUDENT, that you too will benefit from going to a private school - disregarding the fact any given student or any given private school could be an outlier to this $100k value).
Last edited by shredderrrrrr on Mon May 13, 2013 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ti Malice
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Ti Malice » Mon May 13, 2013 10:02 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:It doesn't look like it helped him for admissions though.


Harsh.

What hurt me at the one school I was rejected from was my low GPA and LSAT retake. I didn't expect my WE to be a boost, just standard.


Your retake didn't have anything to do with it. Your numbers were more than sufficient to sink you.


Im fully aware of this. Thats my point -- my softs & WE werent weak, my numbers were at H. I wasnt trying to suggest anything otherwise.


Alright. Sounded to me like you thought H looked unfavorably on you for having taken the test more than once. What I was saying is that 3.7/172 is pretty much auto-reject at H, with or without a retake.

20141023
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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby 20141023 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:53 pm

lol... I came hear expecting to read 4 pages of rigorous conversation about the Ruby and its effects on UChicago, but instead I got to read 3 pages of why jbagelboy's undergrad was a waste. :lol:

To kind of make an on-topic post, I don't think the Debra Cafaro scholarship will help much because 1) it only affects three (as opposed to twenty) students each year, and 2) it is need-based only, so whereas the Ruby might have lured HYS applicants away, the students that are eligible for this scholarship will probably be eligible for HYS need-based scholarships anyway.

Also, here are the past rankings and historic GPAs to show how things were before the Ruby. As you can see, I think the Ruby has definitely had a positive influence on the University, and it would be a shame to not find a replacement for it.

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Re: U Chicago Rubenstein Disappearing?

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon May 13, 2013 11:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:ca n'existe que en France, ma cheri!


an international man of mystery is in our midst. teach us, great one.




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