Rough out there...

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Rough out there...

Postby mehiguess » Sun May 12, 2013 9:32 am

Hello all, I'm new to the forum and have been lurking for a while and thought I'd pull the trigger on my first post. I was talking to with my father's friend's wife who has been practicing as a corporate litigation attorney for the past 20 years and she basically told me now is not a good time for law. As I've read here, she essentially said made two clear points: 1)Do not got to law school unless you can get into a T20 school and, 2: If you can't get in to a T20 school then your cost of attendance should be free or damn close to it. She explained to me how this week she conducted interviews of Yale grads all looking for one associate position(50K starting) and just felt sorry for these kids and their loan burden. Furthermore, and I quote, "We don't even look at the resume if the applicant went to a Florida law school." I realize I'm telling most of you something you already know, but it did crystallize some skepticism for me. I was like, "What about UM or UF?", to which she replied, " Yea, what about em? People get so up in arms over UM but it ain't what it used to be and does hold nearly the prestige of applicants we're looking for." So this is one anecdote to which there can be many rebuttals, and I would love to hear them! I could also tell you about how my buddy from NSU law is making ridiculous money working for a PIP firm. So at the end of the day it is what it is but in just talking to he it crystallized some things for me. Take it easy.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby rad lulz » Sun May 12, 2013 9:39 am

I basically agree w your family

wisdom
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:05 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby wisdom » Sun May 12, 2013 11:12 am

I agree with the overall theme but, really, Yale grads fighting for a 50k associate position? That seems hard to believe, maybe the market is worse than I thought . . .

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun May 12, 2013 11:19 am

wisdom wrote:I agree with the overall theme but, really, Yale grads fighting for a 50k associate position? That seems hard to believe, maybe the market is worse than I thought . . .

I too am skeptical of this anecdote and tend to think she was exaggerating for the sake of making a point to the OP. The rest of it is very on point, though, and T20 is even too generous a cutoff for most people. If they're not looking at resumes from people who went to UF I seriously doubt they're clamoring for WUSTL grads.

User avatar
moonman157
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:26 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby moonman157 » Sun May 12, 2013 11:45 am

Yeah, replace T20 with T14. Overall, you should probably have the numbers to get into a T14, even if you don't end up going to one (not counting special circumstances, of course).

User avatar
minnbills
Posts: 3153
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby minnbills » Sun May 12, 2013 12:11 pm

This sounds like a flame

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby mehiguess » Sun May 12, 2013 2:31 pm

minnbills wrote:This sounds like a flame


Gimmie a break. Just sharing--no flame here. I'm hoping, even a little, that she was exaggerating. But she sure did not sound like it.

User avatar
Micdiddy
Posts: 2190
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby Micdiddy » Sun May 12, 2013 2:34 pm

mehiguess wrote:
minnbills wrote:This sounds like a flame


Gimmie a break. Just sharing--no flame here. I'm hoping, even a little, that she was exaggerating. But she sure did not sound like it.


If anything she was being generous with that t20 cutoff. Glad to know someone 20 years in the business is actually giving good advice. Probably because she has a hand in hiring?

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sun May 12, 2013 2:40 pm

Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."

User avatar
Micdiddy
Posts: 2190
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby Micdiddy » Sun May 12, 2013 2:50 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."


That's a blatant misinterpretation of what was said.

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby mehiguess » Sun May 12, 2013 4:22 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
mehiguess wrote:
minnbills wrote:This sounds like a flame


Gimmie a break. Just sharing--no flame here. I'm hoping, even a little, that she was exaggerating. But she sure did not sound like it.


If anything she was being generous with that t20 cutoff. Glad to know someone 20 years in the business is actually giving good advice. Probably because she has a hand in hiring?

She does the hiring for this particular firm. She went to FIU undergrad and UC Hastings--said when she graduated was the golden age for lawyers.

User avatar
FKASunny
Posts: 3904
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:40 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby FKASunny » Sun May 12, 2013 4:35 pm

mehiguess wrote:She does the hiring for this particular firm. She went to FIU undergrad and UC Hastings--said when she graduated was the golden age for lawyers employment.

Oh, to have graduated college in the 90s…

enigmabk
Posts: 149
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:52 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby enigmabk » Sun May 12, 2013 5:59 pm

Shitboomer

PRgradBYU
Posts: 1419
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:04 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby PRgradBYU » Sun May 12, 2013 7:23 pm

wisdom wrote:I agree with the overall theme but, really, Yale grads fighting for a 50k associate position? That seems hard to believe, maybe the market is worse than I thought . . .


I'm calling baloney. OP's father's wife's friend likely did some serious exaggerating to make her point.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby sinfiery » Sun May 12, 2013 7:36 pm

It makes sense. Probably a PI gig.

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby mehiguess » Sun May 12, 2013 7:41 pm

sinfiery wrote:It makes sense. Probably a PI gig.


If by PI you mean personally injury, it isn't. It's a small corporate litigation firm. If that's not what you meant then I apologize and please fill me in!

User avatar
Richie Tenenbaum
Posts: 2162
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:17 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun May 12, 2013 7:44 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
wisdom wrote:I agree with the overall theme but, really, Yale grads fighting for a 50k associate position? That seems hard to believe, maybe the market is worse than I thought . . .


I'm calling baloney. OP's father's wife's friend likely did some serious exaggerating to make her point.


Why is it so hard to believe? Most yale grads are doing fine, but there are grads at every single law school not doing so hot--could be they are bottom of the class, they are awful interviewers, they got no-offered at their 2L summer job, they are PI people that struck out and now looking at small/medium firms, or a combination of those things (or other stuff). Sure, it may have been hyperbole, but I don't think it's completely unbelievable.

Lord Randolph McDuff
Posts: 1587
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:37 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sun May 12, 2013 7:53 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."


That's a blatant misinterpretation of what was said.


How so? A firm won't hire from in-state law schools because they don't have nearly enough "prestige as the applicants we're looking for?"

Given that the law firm knows they can find applicants from UF or FSU that are every bit as smart and hardworking as applicants from Harvard, and that this hiring partner specifically said that the in-state graduates lack "prestige," how would you like me to phrase my remark?

Oh god, I would never want to work at a place that would not hire a person because they were not "prestigious?"

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13918
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 12, 2013 7:58 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."


That's a blatant misinterpretation of what was said.


How so? A firm won't hire from in-state law schools because they don't have nearly enough "prestige as the applicants we're looking for?"

Given that the law firm knows they can find applicants from UF or FSU that are every bit as smart and hardworking as applicants from Harvard, and that this hiring partner specifically said that the in-state graduates lack "prestige," how would you like me to phrase my remark?

Oh god, I would never want to work at a place that would not hire a person because they were not "prestigious?"
Scalia's a douche, but this quote of his is pretty typical for legal hiring:
By and large, I’m going to be picking from the law schools that basically are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest, and they may not teach very well, but you can’t make a sow’s ear out of a silk purse. If they come in the best and the brightest, they’re probably going to leave the best and the brightest, O.K.?

The quality of professors at FSU might be just fine compared to a T14 but the caliber of student attending is, by and large, not the same. These are people who got bad grades and bad LSAT scores. Sure, a few are probably undiscovered legal geniuses who could out-reason Learned Hand, but a lot of them are just mediocre students with mediocre minds who are going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives, no matter how many of their professors went to Yale.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22885
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun May 12, 2013 8:02 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."


That's a blatant misinterpretation of what was said.


How so? A firm won't hire from in-state law schools because they don't have nearly enough "prestige as the applicants we're looking for?"

Given that the law firm knows they can find applicants from UF or FSU that are every bit as smart and hardworking as applicants from Harvard, and that this hiring partner specifically said that the in-state graduates lack "prestige," how would you like me to phrase my remark?

Oh god, I would never want to work at a place that would not hire a person because they were not "prestigious?"
Scalia's a douche, but this quote of his is pretty typical for legal hiring:
By and large, I’m going to be picking from the law schools that basically are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest, and they may not teach very well, but you can’t make a sow’s ear out of a silk purse. If they come in the best and the brightest, they’re probably going to leave the best and the brightest, O.K.?

The quality of professors at FSU might be just fine compared to a T14 but the caliber of student attending is, by and large, not the same. These are people who got bad grades and bad LSAT scores. Sure, a few are probably undiscovered legal geniuses who could out-reason Learned Hand, but a lot of them are just mediocre students with mediocre minds who are going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives, no matter how many of their professors went to Yale.

Wow. Really?

(Totally agree that people who get in Yale are wicked smaht and have better grades/LSAT than FSU grads, but I think the bolded is a bit much.)

rwhyAn
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:09 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby rwhyAn » Sun May 12, 2013 8:06 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Oh god, the thought of working anywhere that only hires for "prestige."


That's a blatant misinterpretation of what was said.


How so? A firm won't hire from in-state law schools because they don't have nearly enough "prestige as the applicants we're looking for?"

Given that the law firm knows they can find applicants from UF or FSU that are every bit as smart and hardworking as applicants from Harvard, and that this hiring partner specifically said that the in-state graduates lack "prestige," how would you like me to phrase my remark?

Oh god, I would never want to work at a place that would not hire a person because they were not "prestigious?"
Scalia's a douche, but this quote of his is pretty typical for legal hiring:
By and large, I’m going to be picking from the law schools that basically are the hardest to get into. They admit the best and the brightest, and they may not teach very well, but you can’t make a sow’s ear out of a silk purse. If they come in the best and the brightest, they’re probably going to leave the best and the brightest, O.K.?

The quality of professors at FSU might be just fine compared to a T14 but the caliber of student attending is, by and large, not the same. These are people who got bad grades and bad LSAT scores. Sure, a few are probably undiscovered legal geniuses who could out-reason Learned Hand, but a lot of them are just mediocre students with mediocre minds who are going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives, no matter how many of their professors went to Yale.


That is probably the most arrogant, douchiest thing I have ever heard. I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13918
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby rinkrat19 » Sun May 12, 2013 8:08 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:The quality of professors at FSU might be just fine compared to a T14 but the caliber of student attending is, by and large, not the same. These are people who got bad grades and bad LSAT scores. Sure, a few are probably undiscovered legal geniuses who could out-reason Learned Hand, but a lot of them are just mediocre students with mediocre minds who are going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives, no matter how many of their professors went to Yale.

Wow. Really?

Not everybody, but...yeah, to a certain extent.

I'm mediocre at my T14, and I've been one of the "smart" ones my whole life. I've never felt so average and dumb as I do here. It's fucking humbling. These people got good grades and/or great LSAT scores, some did amazing things before law school, and everyone here is just really fucking smart. I imagine it's even more pronounced at the tippy-top schools.

(It is, of course, also possible that I'm as smart as the average person here but just kind of bad at law school, no relation to average intelligence. The correlation is nowhere near perfect.)

ETA: There are always people with extenuating circumstances behind their bad grades, and there are a FEW people who I believe honestly "don't test well" (although not nearly as many people as claim it). But there's gotta be some correlation between doing everything right your whole academic career and being smart. Not every person with bad grades and bad LSAT can be a misunderstood Einstein--not everyone is a special snowflake. Sometimes the people with better numbers actually are smarter. There are more of those people at the top schools.

And even if I'm 100% wrong, it doesn't matter. It's how legal hiring works. There are too many graduates; they have to sift through them somehow.
Last edited by rinkrat19 on Sun May 12, 2013 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22885
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun May 12, 2013 8:13 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:The quality of professors at FSU might be just fine compared to a T14 but the caliber of student attending is, by and large, not the same. These are people who got bad grades and bad LSAT scores. Sure, a few are probably undiscovered legal geniuses who could out-reason Learned Hand, but a lot of them are just mediocre students with mediocre minds who are going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives, no matter how many of their professors went to Yale.

Wow. Really?

Not everybody, but...yeah, to a certain extent.

I'm mediocre at my T14, and I've been one of the "smart" ones my whole life. I've never felt so average and dumb as I do here. It's fucking humbling. These people got good grades and/or great LSAT scores, some did amazing things before law school, and everyone here is just really fucking smart. I imagine it's even more pronounced at the tippy-top schools.

I just have a hard time saying that anyone who's at a mediocre law school is going to be mediocre at whatever they do for the rest of their lives. In fact, I think that's bullshit. (As someone who went to a school ranked fairly close to FSU and had a lot of classmates who are fucking good at what they do. And I know smart people, even if I'm not one of them - I've been around a LOT of them.)

ETA: Not saying the people at the tippy top schools aren't brilliant, just think you're drawing too direct a correlation between success in law school and success in life.
Last edited by A. Nony Mouse on Sun May 12, 2013 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sublime
Posts: 15418
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:21 pm

Re: Rough out there...

Postby sublime » Sun May 12, 2013 8:21 pm

..

User avatar
mehiguess
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat May 11, 2013 9:23 am

Re: Rough out there...

Postby mehiguess » Sun May 12, 2013 10:02 pm

sublime wrote:
mehiguess wrote:
sinfiery wrote:It makes sense. Probably a PI gig.


If by PI you mean personally injury, it isn't. It's a small corporate litigation firm. If that's not what you meant then I apologize and please fill me in!



PI typically means public interest. :)

Thanks :wink:




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 4 guests