UVA $$ vs. NYU $

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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UVA $$ vs. NYU $

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Fri May 10, 2013 10:42 pm

Hey folks, long-time lurker, first-time poster because I'm seeking the advice of people who know more than I do.

Basic Matchup/TLDR version: NYU vs. $75k at UVA. (EDIT: NYU offered $25k today [5/16], so now it's $25k at NYU vs. $75k at UVA.)

Important point of order because we continue: Yes, I know this is nearly exactly the same question as was asked in an ATL post last month. Linked for reference: http://abovethelaw.com/2013/04/the-decision-nyu-law-v-uva-law-at-half-price-tuition/. Yes, I read it, and yes, I understand this post may thus appear redundant, but I wanted to see if any of my particulars may change the calculus. So for the breakdown:

Timeline: I sent in both these apps pretty late. UVA accepted me in a cocaine heartbeat (five days) along with what amounts to half-off tuition (plus another $15k from being a resident). It should be noted that I feel UVA has treated me with as much courtesy and respect as is possible in this process. I was waitlisted at NYU in early April and was pulled off the waitlist in this week's wave. I'm currently out of the country on business, and found out a few hours ago via email from my home. I've spent the past three months thinking about UVA and nearly every thought has been positive and appreciative. I had essentially assumed I was going there for a while, ever since a late March/early April crush left me on eight T14 waitlists (including NYU's). I had not assumed there would be any movement, so this will be the first time I've taken a long look at NYU since before the apps were submitted.
Employment: I currently believe my most likely focus is something financial, but another strong possibility is political work--this is much of where much of my WE and personal interest lies (I have a good amount of political activism in my CV), even if it pays peanuts. I'm guessing (though I can't be sure) I'm less likely to wind up at a firm than is the average applicant. I can't deny all the opportunity the NYC market brings (where finance and tax law play better), but the DC market, to me, is equally desirable, as it contains a lot of the work I might be interested in, and I already have people I know and like there (I live in northern VA). More than one influential person has remarked that they think uniquely highly of UVA. I'm estimating on net, the two schools give have about equal "name power."
Money: For me, money is not as much a factor as it would be for other applicants. While I am not Scrooge McDuck, I consider myself relatively well-off financially and $75k would not be a make-or-break factor for me. That's not to say it isn't relevant or that $75k is not more than zero, but I do not anticipate having any debt upon graduation either way. This renders NYU's higher cost of living relatively inconsequential for me as well.
School culture: The traditionally-stereotyped attitude and style of the student culture at UVA would be a plus for me (aka the "fratty" reputation versus NYU's "hipster" reputation), as I suspect I would get along better with the sorts of students UVA is thought to attract. That's not at all to say I would find the NYU student body repulsive; I imagine getting along just fine regardless.
Location: I have a number of friends in Charlottesville (because I'm a year ahead) who might help in making the transition smoother, although very few are associated with the law school. I know only a couple people in NYC currently. I went to undergrad in a relatively small college town and didn't mind it, although Charlottesville doesn't excite me like it does for others. NYC tends to annoy me more than excite me, but this seems like a very unique opportunity in my life to have a Greenwich Village apartment that's fully paid for. NYC does, of course, offer more cool things to do, but I don't imagine location playing a huge role, because my mental self-image is spending three years in exactly three buildings. Accessing Northern VA might actually be easier from NYC since I don't have a car.

I feel mentally connected with UVA at this point (I submitted a deposit there and the only reason I haven't resolved housing there is pure procrastination), but I don't want the notion that I've been accepted there for a while outweigh objectivity. At the same time, I also don't want objectivity compromised by the fact that NYU might enthrall me simply because it's newly on the table. That's what concerns me about such a quick turnaround on a deposit deadline. Regardless, I feel very lucky to be in this situation--a lot of people would kill for this choice, even those who don't bookmark this site. As they say, this is a good problem to have.

The ATL community went 2/1 in favor of UVA looking at a situation almost exactly the same as this one. Do you agree, or do you think NYU would be a better option in my case? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Last edited by Monochromatic Oeuvre on Thu May 16, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Fri May 10, 2013 11:03 pm

3L at UVA who had the same scholarship (though tuition is now higher). Everything worked out well for me (doing what I want after graduation) and I have no complaints.

FYI, may want to edit your title; $25/K per year is more than "$," (which refers to like 5-10k/year); most folks talking about that much would say "$$" at least

Unless you can get HYS, or at least 1/3rd - 1/2 tuition at NYU, UVA's the clear winner I think. I have a good friend at NYU who loves it. I for one could never be happy in NYC so I never would have considered it, but since you are, consider that with no money at NYU plus the much higher New York cost of living, you're really looking at UVA with $$$ vs NYU. Go visit, but it should take a lot to take to convince you to take on that much extra debt.

What is your GPA/LSAT situation though? if your LSAT is holding you back, always consider sitting out and retaking. If not, and these are your choices, go UVA.

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Tekrul
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tekrul » Fri May 10, 2013 11:05 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:School culture: The traditionally-stereotyped attitude and style of the student culture at UVA would be a plus for me, as I suspect I would get along better with the sorts of students UVA is thought to attract. That's not at all to say I would find the NYU student body repulsive; I imagine getting along just fine regardless.


Please clarify this.

Edit: Just got it, you really should re-word that as you seem to be saying you prefer a student body composed of individuals who engage in the regular amount of bigotry.

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Lavitz
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Lavitz » Fri May 10, 2013 11:14 pm

I would go with UVA since you already know for sure that you'd be happy with it, you may want political work in DC, and you sound uncertain about NYU and living in NYC. And of course, $75K is still $75K.

Tekrul wrote:Please clarify this.

Edit: Just got it, you really should re-word that as you seem to be saying you prefer a student body composed of individuals who engage in the regular amount of bigotry.

Please clarify this.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri May 10, 2013 11:16 pm

I think UVA is a pretty clear winner, especially since you seem more interested in DC.

The only decent argument I can think of for NYU is their LRAP (if their LRAP is considerably better than UVA's which I don't know), if you are sure you want to do non-profit work, but it doesn't seem like you're sure about that.

(Also, consider adding a poll and a TL;DR at the end of OP.)

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Tekrul
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tekrul » Fri May 10, 2013 11:17 pm

Lol I'm not saying there is such a thing as a 'regular amount of bigotry'. Just saying the part I quoted which stated "traditionally-stereotyped attitude" seemed to indicate that there was such a thing. Which I now understand to mean UVA's student body is stereotyped to be traditional. At least I believe that was the intent.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Fri May 10, 2013 11:20 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I think UVA is a pretty clear winner, especially since you seem more interested in DC.

The only decent argument I can think of for NYU is their LRAP (if their LRAP is considerably better than UVA's which I don't know), if you are sure you want to do non-profit work, but it doesn't seem like you're sure about that.

(Also, consider adding a poll and a TL;DR at the end of OP.)


UVA's LRAP makes you use IBR/PAYE, but it makes 100% of your payments if you make below $55,000 AGI, and pays a reducing percentage until you place out of it at $75,000. No idea how this compares to NYU's.

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Lavitz
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Lavitz » Fri May 10, 2013 11:20 pm

ReelectClayDavis wrote:Go visit, but it should take a lot to take to convince you to take on that much extra debt.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:The only decent argument I can think of for NYU is their LRAP (if their LRAP is considerably better than UVA's which I don't know), if you are sure you want to do non-profit work, but it doesn't seem like you're sure about that.

OP doesn't anticipate having any debt.
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I do not anticipate having any debt upon graduation either way.

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Tekrul
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tekrul » Fri May 10, 2013 11:22 pm

I think this is one of those rare cases when pure whim can win the day. OP seems to be materially wealthy enough to consider 75k a relatively insignificant factor. And he seems to prefer UVA up and down the post. Especially given his lean towards DC.

I don't see any reason for him to choose NYU.

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ReelectClayDavis
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby ReelectClayDavis » Fri May 10, 2013 11:24 pm

Lavitz wrote:
ReelectClayDavis wrote:Go visit, but it should take a lot to take to convince you to take on that much extra debt.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:The only decent argument I can think of for NYU is their LRAP (if their LRAP is considerably better than UVA's which I don't know), if you are sure you want to do non-profit work, but it doesn't seem like you're sure about that.

OP doesn't anticipate having any debt.
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I do not anticipate having any debt upon graduation either way.


Fair; can't read closely anymore after exam week obviously. Probably better uses for $75K+ than sending it to NYU though, I don't think the gain on the margin in employment options is worth it.

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Lavitz
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Lavitz » Fri May 10, 2013 11:26 pm

Tekrul wrote:Lol I'm not saying there is such a thing as a 'regular amount of bigotry'. Just saying the part I quoted which stated "traditionally-stereotyped attitude" seemed to indicate that there was such a thing. Which I now understand to mean UVA's student body is stereotyped to be traditional. At least I believe that was the intent.

I'm honestly not sure what OP meant by that either. But I thought you meant there was a stereotype that UVA students were bigots.

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Tekrul
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tekrul » Fri May 10, 2013 11:31 pm

Yea, that was my original intent in advising him to edit it.

My first interpretation:
He wanted to be with traditionally-stereotyped classmates. Classmates who engage in traditional stereotyping.
(Now I'm thinking I was being a bit unfair and jumped to this because I am a minority and my school just recently had a hate crime issue http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc ... e/2146723/ because he probably meant...)

My current interpretation:
He wants to be with traditionally-stereotyped classmates. Classmates who have been stereotyped to be traditional.

Either way, I think he needs to edit it.
Last edited by Tekrul on Fri May 10, 2013 11:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Tom Joad
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tom Joad » Fri May 10, 2013 11:32 pm

UVA. NYU might be better but not worth $100,000 difference in COA.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri May 10, 2013 11:33 pm

Lavitz wrote:
ReelectClayDavis wrote:Go visit, but it should take a lot to take to convince you to take on that much extra debt.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:The only decent argument I can think of for NYU is their LRAP (if their LRAP is considerably better than UVA's which I don't know), if you are sure you want to do non-profit work, but it doesn't seem like you're sure about that.

OP doesn't anticipate having any debt.
Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:I do not anticipate having any debt upon graduation either way.


Ah, missed that, thanks.

OP-Even if you're wealthy enough for either without debt, my vote still goes for UVA. I don't think the employment prospects from NYU are worth 75K (plus the higher COL).

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Yukos
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Yukos » Fri May 10, 2013 11:34 pm

UVA seems to be the winner, and it sounds like you like it more anyway.

Lavitz wrote:
Tekrul wrote:Lol I'm not saying there is such a thing as a 'regular amount of bigotry'. Just saying the part I quoted which stated "traditionally-stereotyped attitude" seemed to indicate that there was such a thing. Which I now understand to mean UVA's student body is stereotyped to be traditional. At least I believe that was the intent.

I'm honestly not sure what OP meant by that either. But I thought you meant there was a stereotype that UVA students were bigots.


I think OP meant he believes he would get along better with the stereotypical students at each (e.g. fratboys with popped collars at UVA, tattooed hipsters who say they want PI but will end up at Skadden at NYU) (I love both these schools and these stereotypes come from love :) ) and Tekrul misinterpreted him to mean that OP wants to hang out with bigots who stereotype people.

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Tekrul
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Tekrul » Fri May 10, 2013 11:38 pm

Yukos nailed it. Idk why I had such a hard time explaining it. I was getting too flustered and embarrassed trying to clear myself of stereotyping tendencies lol.

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Lavitz
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby Lavitz » Fri May 10, 2013 11:46 pm

Yukos wrote:I think OP meant he believes he would get along better with the stereotypical students at each (e.g. fratboys with popped collars at UVA, tattooed hipsters who say they want PI but will end up at Skadden at NYU) (I love both these schools and these stereotypes come from love :) ) and Tekrul misinterpreted him to mean that OP wants to hang out with bigots who stereotype people.

Yeah, the first part was how I interpreted it as well. I didn't get Tekrul's "traditionally stereotyping" interpretation.

Tekrul wrote:Yukos nailed it. Idk why I had such a hard time explaining it. I was getting too flustered and embarrassed trying to clear myself of stereotyping tendencies lol.

No problem. Sorry for making you feel flustered.

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twenty
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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby twenty » Sat May 11, 2013 2:02 am

Just to be clear, people operating from the NYU > All other T14 LRAP position are arguing a case that was only valid before all the schools switched over to IBR/PSLF.

At one point in time, NYU was worth 60k-90k more than, say, Northwestern, because NYU's LRAP just kicked so much butt. It's still a great program, and still substantially better than most other LRAP programs, but now all the other schools have jumped on the IBR train, which makes the difference between NYU and, say, UVA substantially smaller.

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Re: UVA $ vs. NYU

Postby NoodleyOne » Sat May 11, 2013 9:32 am

Also, for the record, the difference in cost isn't 75k. Counting in-state as well as the significantly lower cost of living plus NYU's higher tuition, it probably comes out to about 120k. That's a lot of grilled cheese sandwiches.

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Monochromatic Oeuvre
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby Monochromatic Oeuvre » Sat May 11, 2013 10:55 am

Thanks for the input, folks. I really appreciate it. 3.45/176, non-URM, no standout softs, good-but-not-great undergrad, in case anyone may find the info useful.

Edited a couple things for clarity. The "student culture" aspect indeed refers to the idea that UVA's student body tends to be thought of as containing a higher proportion of "frat guys", while NYU's tends to be thought of as containing a higher proportion of "hipsters." I use tentative terminology there to express the idea that, even if the stereotypes are true to some extent (and I don't know how true that is, at least from my perspective), student bodies tend to look more alike than people seem to believe. In addition, both schools are big enough to attract a wide enough range of students that most anyone could fit in--NYU will have plenty of "frat guys" and UVA will have plenty of "hipsters." Put more succinctly, if you drew a frat guy-to-hipster social continuum, my social circle/experiences would put me a lot closer to the former than the latter. I'm 20 years old and I don't look even that, so I wouldn't be fooling anyone into thinking I'm a seasoned professional anyway.

My general thought as it stands now is that both schools would offer about the same employment opportunities for me (maybe a very, very slight edge to NYU), but I would prefer UVA's general living and social culture situation. I get the sense (just speculatively) that choosing NYU over UVA suggests one is some combination of a) actively excited by the prospect of living in Greenwich Village, b) confident NYC is the market they want to practice in, or otherwise focused on tax law or IL, and/or c) put off by, or otherwise uncomfortable with, living in Charlottesville with a bunch of "frat guys" at a school thought to be to the right of most T14s. I'm none of the above. I also get the sense that if were really jazzed about NYU, my reaction would be more visceral than contemplative, which seems like almost a prerequisite to making a deposit in a week. I know if CLS pulled me off their reserve list (hang on, let me pretend for a moment the possibility is real instead of whimsical), I would say yes in two seconds, and these questions wouldn't loom.

So given that this would be a serious conundrum even at equal COAs, it seems pretty simple that a 120k COA difference (even if it won't change my debt, I can't ignore that kind of money) tilts it strongly in UVA's favor. That's my lean right now. I reserve the right to change my mind between now and next Monday as I dive in and do the sort of serious NYU research that's probably long overdue, but if nothing major changes, I'll stay on at UVA, and hopefully NYU will use that spot for someone who desperately wants to go there more than anything in the world.

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Bronck
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby Bronck » Sat May 11, 2013 1:15 pm

Sidebar: you might want to tone down your rhetoric before you enter law school so you don't come across as a douche wherever you attend.

On topic: NYU isn't worth sticker. Just go to UVA already, it's a solid choice at that cost.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat May 11, 2013 1:21 pm

Monochromatic Oeuvre wrote:Thanks for the input, folks. I really appreciate it. 3.45/176, non-URM, no standout softs, good-but-not-great undergrad, in case anyone may find the info useful.

Edited a couple things for clarity. The "student culture" aspect indeed refers to the idea that UVA's student body tends to be thought of as containing a higher proportion of "frat guys", while NYU's tends to be thought of as containing a higher proportion of "hipsters." I use tentative terminology there to express the idea that, even if the stereotypes are true to some extent (and I don't know how true that is, at least from my perspective), student bodies tend to look more alike than people seem to believe. In addition, both schools are big enough to attract a wide enough range of students that most anyone could fit in--NYU will have plenty of "frat guys" and UVA will have plenty of "hipsters." Put more succinctly, if you drew a frat guy-to-hipster social continuum, my social circle/experiences would put me a lot closer to the former than the latter. I'm 20 years old and I don't look even that, so I wouldn't be fooling anyone into thinking I'm a seasoned professional anyway.

My general thought as it stands now is that both schools would offer about the same employment opportunities for me (maybe a very, very slight edge to NYU), but I would prefer UVA's general living and social culture situation. I get the sense (just speculatively) that choosing NYU over UVA suggests one is some combination of a) actively excited by the prospect of living in Greenwich Village, b) confident NYC is the market they want to practice in, or otherwise focused on tax law or IL, and/or c) put off by, or otherwise uncomfortable with, living in Charlottesville with a bunch of "frat guys" at a school thought to be to the right of most T14s. I'm none of the above. I also get the sense that if were really jazzed about NYU, my reaction would be more visceral than contemplative, which seems like almost a prerequisite to making a deposit in a week. I know if CLS pulled me off their reserve list (hang on, let me pretend for a moment the possibility is real instead of whimsical), I would say yes in two seconds, and these questions wouldn't loom.

So given that this would be a serious conundrum even at equal COAs, it seems pretty simple that a 120k COA difference (even if it won't change my debt, I can't ignore that kind of money) tilts it strongly in UVA's favor. That's my lean right now. I reserve the right to change my mind between now and next Monday as I dive in and do the sort of serious NYU research that's probably long overdue, but if nothing major changes, I'll stay on at UVA, and hopefully NYU will use that spot for someone who desperately wants to go there more than anything in the world.


Jfc

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smaug_
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby smaug_ » Sat May 11, 2013 1:23 pm

If you really don't care about the 75k do whichever you want. If you know you're gunning for elite NYC firms, it might sway you to NYU, but really, even if you're wealthy you can do a lot with 75k.

You also underperformed your numbers, but with your GPA you're not going to get into HYS, so it probably isn't worth going through another cycle.

I'd do UVA. You should do whatever you want (as long as the graduating with no debt thing is true/secure).

Finally, you could get off of reserve at CLS. Your numbers aren't holding you back, at least. (ETA: but lol at thinking that CLS and NYU are meaningfully different.)

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hohenheim
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby hohenheim » Sat May 11, 2013 5:09 pm

hibiki wrote:Finally, you could get off of reserve at CLS. Your numbers aren't holding you back, at least. (ETA: but lol at thinking that CLS and NYU are meaningfully different.)


Yeah, I don't totally get the idea of going to Columbia at sticker over $$ at UVA if you weren't willing to do NYU. Maybe there's some small prestige/culture difference between the two, but they seem pretty fungible to me.

Disclosure: I already turned down CLS and NYU for UVA with the same financial considerations.

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Yukos
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Re: UVA $$ vs. NYU

Postby Yukos » Sat May 11, 2013 7:09 pm

If you're 20 you should work a couple years before going to law school. Not only would it improve your chances at getting into Columbia on the next go around but it will help tremendously at getting a job. Employers already frown on K-JDs and they're not going to be very excited to hire a guy they can't show to clients because he looks like he's a sophomore in college.




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