T14 vs. regional schools

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Total Debt at Graduation

Cornell (215k)
21
24%
UCLA (110k)
44
49%
USC (118k)
6
7%
UCI (12k)
18
20%
 
Total votes: 89

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thatgumyoulike
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T14 vs. regional schools

Postby thatgumyoulike » Fri May 10, 2013 9:51 pm

Edit: Took out the details. See poll.
Last edited by thatgumyoulike on Fri May 24, 2013 12:11 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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thatgumyoulike
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby thatgumyoulike » Fri May 10, 2013 9:54 pm

Priority Waitlist at Georgetown, if relevant. Would not attend at sticker.

bruin91
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby bruin91 » Fri May 10, 2013 10:09 pm

I think this should be between Cornell and UCLA. It depends how debt averse you are; if you really like it there, and are OK with 100k more debt, go to Cornell. If not, no reason to choose USC over UCLA, and UCI is too unpredictable if you want BigLaw.

BigZuck
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 10, 2013 11:43 pm

How significant is this other? This is someone you really and truly can rely on to potentially cover COL if they get a good job or to live with their parents for 3 years? Or is this just like a girlfriend or something?

PRgradBYU
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby PRgradBYU » Sat May 11, 2013 12:07 am

UCLA

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thatgumyoulike
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby thatgumyoulike » Sat May 11, 2013 12:10 am

BigZuck wrote:How significant is this other? This is someone you really and truly can rely on to potentially cover COL if they get a good job or to live with their parents for 3 years? Or is this just like a girlfriend or something?

3 1/2 years. Significant. Willing to move to Ithaca if I do.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sat May 11, 2013 12:21 am

bruin91 wrote:I think this should be between Cornell and UCLA. It depends how debt averse you are; if you really like it there, and are OK with 100k more debt, go to Cornell. If not, no reason to choose USC over UCLA, and UCI is too unpredictable if you want BigLaw.


Except more scholly money, better network, better employment numbers, and more lay prestige in L.A.?

bruin91
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby bruin91 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:05 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
bruin91 wrote:I think this should be between Cornell and UCLA. It depends how debt averse you are; if you really like it there, and are OK with 100k more debt, go to Cornell. If not, no reason to choose USC over UCLA, and UCI is too unpredictable if you want BigLaw.


Except more scholly money, better network, better employment numbers, and more lay prestige in L.A.?


I'm not going to partake in a petty USC/UCLA debate. USC and UCLA are peer schools. OP mentions tuition is higher at USC even with the higher scholly. (I can't independently verify that as UC tuition has skyrocketed over the last few years--it's very much possible OP is incorrect, and I'd suggest he know for sure before making his decision). However, if I take OP's claim as true, there is no reason to choose a more expensive USC over UCLA.

Better network? Possibly.

Better employment numbers? They are almost identical; nationally, UCLA has a slight edge.

Lay Prestige? Seriously? Out of all things, your bet is on USC's "lay" prestige.

Sorry about the last part, couldn't help myself ;)

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sat May 11, 2013 1:06 am

Agreed.

OP should pick whichever school is cheaper, between SC/LA.

y2zipper
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby y2zipper » Sat May 11, 2013 1:09 am

I'm seconding USC as out. USC and UCLA are basically equal, so there's no reason to pay more for USC.

UCI isn't compatible with your goals, so that's out.

Cornell is double the biglaw chances at double the price. At 100K debt levels, you want Cornell's 60% biglaw chances. I'm not saying it's "worth" 200k, but next to UCLA I'd take it and run.

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twenty
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby twenty » Sat May 11, 2013 2:10 am

I do love Cornell as a school (in a "little engine that could" sort of way), and if you're down with NYC biglaw, I'd take Cornell in a second. The problem is, 200k+ forces you to do biglaw for a minumum of four years before you even break even. That's... a lot of biglaw.

Inform Cornell that if they can increase the scholarship to 60k, you'll withdraw from all your other schools and for sure go there. If they won't bite, UCLA.

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Lasers
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby Lasers » Sat May 11, 2013 4:00 am

y2zipper wrote:I'm seconding USC as out. USC and UCLA are basically equal, so there's no reason to pay more for USC.

UCI isn't compatible with your goals, so that's out.

Cornell is double the biglaw chances at double the price. At 100K debt levels, you want Cornell's 60% biglaw chances. I'm not saying it's "worth" 200k, but next to UCLA I'd take it and run.

where are you getting the 60% figure for cornell's biglaw placement?

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Bronck
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby Bronck » Sat May 11, 2013 4:07 am

Lasers wrote:
y2zipper wrote:I'm seconding USC as out. USC and UCLA are basically equal, so there's no reason to pay more for USC.

UCI isn't compatible with your goals, so that's out.

Cornell is double the biglaw chances at double the price. At 100K debt levels, you want Cornell's 60% biglaw chances. I'm not saying it's "worth" 200k, but next to UCLA I'd take it and run.

where are you getting the 60% figure for cornell's biglaw placement?


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=cornell

57.9% in firms size 100+, and 6.3% into fed clerkships = 64.2%

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Lasers
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby Lasers » Sat May 11, 2013 5:07 am

Bronck wrote:
Lasers wrote:
y2zipper wrote:I'm seconding USC as out. USC and UCLA are basically equal, so there's no reason to pay more for USC.

UCI isn't compatible with your goals, so that's out.

Cornell is double the biglaw chances at double the price. At 100K debt levels, you want Cornell's 60% biglaw chances. I'm not saying it's "worth" 200k, but next to UCLA I'd take it and run.

where are you getting the 60% figure for cornell's biglaw placement?


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=cornell

57.9% in firms size 100+, and 6.3% into fed clerkships = 64.2%

ah, ok, makes sense. most of the numbers i've seen were based on nlj250. i guess any firm larger than 100 can be classified as biglaw.

toss up between cornell and ucla, imo. would lean towards cornell though, since biglaw anywhere is rated pretty high on OP's goals. the debt is scary though, and there's still a 40%ish chance OP ends up in the worst case scenario (big debt, no biglaw, not in area of preference), but it is what it is.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby Doorkeeper » Sat May 11, 2013 9:09 am

If OP really prefers NYC biglaw to CA non-biglaw, then I think Cornell is the way to go...although at that price it's not the best of situations. UCLA will still require biglaw to pay off (I don't know about their LRAP program) and there is a big enough difference in biglaw placement (58% vs. 34%) that I think makes it worth it.

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twenty
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby twenty » Sat May 11, 2013 12:04 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:If OP really prefers NYC biglaw to CA non-biglaw, then I think Cornell is the way to go...although at that price it's not the best of situations. UCLA will still require biglaw to pay off (I don't know about their LRAP program) and there is a big enough difference in biglaw placement (58% vs. 34%) that I think makes it worth it.


Do you honestly think OP will last long enough in NYC biglaw to pay back that much debt? Not a rhetorical question -- legitimately curious.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat May 11, 2013 12:24 pm

Cornell isn't worth 200K and UCLA/SC aren't worth 100K. UCI or retake (though I'm dubious of all things UCI)

TheNextAmendment
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby TheNextAmendment » Sat May 11, 2013 12:27 pm

Cornell. After researching the UC tuition increase pattern over the last decade by 3L sc/la will be at least 250k/year, maybe 350k/year. This would ultimately leave you with ~600k debt. Idk I think that's a lot.

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Dmini7
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby Dmini7 » Sat May 11, 2013 12:37 pm

TheNextAmendment wrote:Cornell. After researching the UC tuition increase pattern over the last decade by 3L sc/la will be at least 250k/year, maybe 350k/year. This would ultimately leave you with ~600k debt. Idk I think that's a lot.



Although most of the logic used in here is wrong, the idea made me laugh and has some validity. I would like to point out that SC is a private school so its tuition increases are not really the same pattern as UC's

TheNextAmendment
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby TheNextAmendment » Sat May 11, 2013 12:43 pm

Dmini7 wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:Cornell. After researching the UC tuition increase pattern over the last decade by 3L sc/la will be at least 250k/year, maybe 350k/year. This would ultimately leave you with ~600k debt. Idk I think that's a lot.



Although most of the logic used in here is wrong, the idea made me laugh and has some validity. I would like to point out that SC is a private school so its tuition increases are not really the same pattern as UC's

Ha I'm glad you saw my logic was off. Phewww.

y2zipper
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby y2zipper » Sat May 11, 2013 5:22 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:If OP really prefers NYC biglaw to CA non-biglaw, then I think Cornell is the way to go...although at that price it's not the best of situations. UCLA will still require biglaw to pay off (I don't know about their LRAP program) and there is a big enough difference in biglaw placement (58% vs. 34%) that I think makes it worth it.


Do you honestly think OP will last long enough in NYC biglaw to pay back that much debt? Not a rhetorical question -- legitimately curious.


I don't know, but I wouldn't go biglaw or bust at UCLA. That's riskier than taking on more debt at Cornell. Then again, I'm a 0L. To be fair, neither option is great but Cornell is a much better shot here until UCLA comes in under 70K or so, and even that's high.

If I were in OP's shoes I'd take biglaw off the table and do UCI.

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thatgumyoulike
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby thatgumyoulike » Sun May 12, 2013 2:32 pm

y2zipper wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:If OP really prefers NYC biglaw to CA non-biglaw, then I think Cornell is the way to go...although at that price it's not the best of situations. UCLA will still require biglaw to pay off (I don't know about their LRAP program) and there is a big enough difference in biglaw placement (58% vs. 34%) that I think makes it worth it.


Do you honestly think OP will last long enough in NYC biglaw to pay back that much debt? Not a rhetorical question -- legitimately curious.


I don't know, but I wouldn't go biglaw or bust at UCLA. That's riskier than taking on more debt at Cornell. Then again, I'm a 0L. To be fair, neither option is great but Cornell is a much better shot here until UCLA comes in under 70K or so, and even that's high.

If I were in OP's shoes I'd take biglaw off the table and do UCI.


That's fair. Is it reasonable to add fed. clerkships + large firm + public service jobs (w/ LRAP) as desirable outcomes to pay off the debt?
4.8 +34.2 +11.4=50.4% at UCLA.
6.3 + 57.9 + 13.7=77.9% at Cornell.

The debt is frightening at Cornell. At what figure would it become a good option?

Also, UCI living at home (the drive would be terrible, but doable) would leave me with very little debt. Opinions on UCI at this price, and what types of outcomes I'd be limiting myself to? I'm afraid LST isn't very helpful here.

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twenty
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby twenty » Sun May 12, 2013 4:02 pm

thatgumyoulike wrote:public service jobs (w/ LRAP) as desirable outcomes


Cornell's LRAP is unique from other T14's + UCLA + UCI in that it does not tie into IBR. Look at it very carefully -- it's different, and not in a good way. There are very specific scenarios where Cornell's LRAP is better than the other T14s (minus NYU/Columbia/HYS), but that's it.

(Cornell > Other 14s)

- No undergrad debt/dual degree -> 3L -> State/federal clerkship -> 2 years with NYC DA -> Biglaw

- No outside debt -> 3L -> JAG -> private practice.

- Private loans for Cornell* -> 3L -> Anything
* assuming no consolidation

- Crap-tons of outside debt being covered by IBR -> 3L -> A high-paying (80k+) public interest position (Cornell uniquely balances salary against other debt payments, including credit card debt, etc)

(Everyone else > Cornell)

- Some/No undergrad debt -> 3L -> Public interest for ten years.

- No undergrad debt -> 3L -> Public interest for 4~ years -> Lateral to biglaw

- Some undergrad debt -> 3L -> Oh eff, you can't get a PI job -> You got a PI job!

- Lots of undergrad debt -> 1L -> Dropping out ya'll, have a wonderful life.

- No/some undergrad debt -> 2L -> Shiny joint degree -> 3L -> public interest for ten years.

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dr123
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby dr123 » Sun May 12, 2013 4:07 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
thatgumyoulike wrote:public service jobs (w/ LRAP) as desirable outcomes


Cornell's LRAP is unique from other T14's + UCLA + UCI in that it does not tie into IBR. Look at it very carefully -- it's different, and not in a good way. There are very specific scenarios where Cornell's LRAP is better than the other T14s (minus NYU/Columbia/HYS), but that's it.

(Cornell > Other 14s)

- No undergrad debt/dual degree -> 3L -> State/federal clerkship -> 2 years with NYC DA -> Biglaw

- No outside debt -> 3L -> JAG -> private practice.

- Private loans for Cornell* -> 3L -> Anything
* assuming no consolidation

- Crap-tons of outside debt being covered by IBR -> 3L -> A high-paying (80k+) public interest position (Cornell uniquely balances salary against other debt payments, including credit card debt, etc)

(Everyone else > Cornell)

- Some/No undergrad debt -> 3L -> Public interest for ten years.

- No undergrad debt -> 3L -> Public interest for 4~ years -> Lateral to biglaw

- Some undergrad debt -> 3L -> Oh eff, you can't get a PI job -> You got a PI job!

- Lots of undergrad debt -> 1L -> Dropping out ya'll, have a wonderful life.

- No/some undergrad debt -> 2L -> Shiny joint degree -> 3L -> public interest for ten years.



uh is this even possible? i dont think this is a common route.

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twenty
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Re: Cornell vs. California Schools

Postby twenty » Sun May 12, 2013 4:10 pm

Also, public interest is definitely not a "struck out at OCI. :( " option. If your resume doesn't scream a very specific kind of PI by your 3L year, you're not getting it. Bruce Wayne can attest to the fact that now that biglaw is more or less out of reach for him, even from a T10 school, PI is not anywhere close to easily obtainable.

EDIT>

uh is this even possible? i dont think this is a common route.


It is rare, but it does happen. Manhattan DA/DOJ/State AG/etc has a pretty good shot at lateraling over to biglaw if they want it. Of course, any spot that would allow someone to lateral to biglaw would more or less require biglaw+ stats anyway.




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