UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

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koala257
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UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby koala257 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:23 pm

I'm trying to choose between UMich and UVA. They're both great schools, so I'm having a really hard time deciding. I care most about job prospects -- I'm hoping to work for a law firm in a major city (NYC, DC, SF, etc.) after graduating. I am also interested in public policy / government work, but I'll probably do law firm work for the first few years at least. Which one has better reputation among recruiters / in the legal industry?

ALSO: Are these schools "known" for certain areas of law? What do law students elsewhere think of these schools (reputation among students)? Does the fact that UVA's acceptance rate is noticeably lower than UMich's say anything about the schools? Please let me know if there are other major factors I should consider when making the decision! (Tuition isn't a big concern of mine.)

Thank you!

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NoodleyOne
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri May 10, 2013 12:25 pm

UVA is ranked 7th while Michigan is ranked 9th.

The choice is clear.

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RSterling
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby RSterling » Fri May 10, 2013 12:26 pm

koala257 wrote:I'm trying to choose between UMich and UVA. They're both great schools, so I'm having a really hard time deciding. I care most about job prospects -- I'm hoping to work for a law firm in a major city (NYC, DC, SF, etc.) after graduating. I am also interested in public policy / government work, but I'll probably do law firm work for the first few years at least. Which one has better reputation among recruiters / in the legal industry?

ALSO: Are these schools "known" for certain areas of law? What do law students elsewhere think of these schools (reputation among students)? Does the fact that UVA's acceptance rate is noticeably lower than UMich's say anything about the schools? Please let me know if there are other major factors I should consider when making the decision! (Tuition isn't a big concern of mine.)

Thank you!


Man, I wish the bolded applied to me haha.

I would go with UVA: slightly higher job prospects, and close to DC for policy/government opportunities (UVA lets you take a semester to go work in policy/government in DC full-time). Weather will also be much warmer.

Have you visited either of the schools? If that's possible, it may help to make your decision easier.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby WokeUpInACar » Fri May 10, 2013 12:28 pm


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BruceWayne
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby BruceWayne » Fri May 10, 2013 12:31 pm

You should decide this based off of 1)cost 2) location. If you're from the midwest go to Michigan. If you're from the mid-atlantic or the South go to UVA. If you aren't from either it doesn't really matter.

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UVAIce
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby UVAIce » Fri May 10, 2013 12:34 pm

I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.

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bk1
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby bk1 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You should decide this based off of 1)cost 2) location. If you're from the midwest go to Michigan. If you're from the mid-atlantic or the South go to UVA. If you aren't from either it doesn't really matter.

+1
UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.

Why shoot yourself in the foot if you don't have to?

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UVAIce
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby UVAIce » Fri May 10, 2013 12:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:You should decide this based off of 1)cost 2) location. If you're from the midwest go to Michigan. If you're from the mid-atlantic or the South go to UVA. If you aren't from either it doesn't really matter.

+1
UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.

Why shoot yourself in the foot if you don't have to?


Because I'm from Minnesota and Michigan is cold. That and I just don't see the situation where the median Michigan kid gets the job and you don't. I know a number of folks in the Midwest that got big law with median grades from UVA.

Now, if you want to work in the Midwest for some odd reason and have no ties then I would say go to Michigan. But I really don't see a real boost there if you already have ties.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby BruceWayne » Fri May 10, 2013 12:43 pm

UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.


I'm not saying you can't get back to the midwest from here (UVA). I know a lot of people who have done that funny enough. The issue is that it takes you out of the market for 3 years which has its problems. It's fine if you end up getting high grades (which is what all the people I know who went back ended up getting). But if you don't it's a headache because you are now hundreds of miles away from your choice market. Location is a practical issue because it prevents you from being in the know about smaller firms/local jobs. In addition, when you're grades aren't hot you don't want anything to make a prospective employer second guess giving you a chance. Again, if you get high grades all of this is a mute point--but you aren't guaranteed high grades.

Going to UVA over Michigan if you want to work in the Midwest is just one of those things that doesn't really have an upside, but could potentially have a serious downside. The same goes for leaving the market you want to work in generally if you aren't going to a school that provides a massive step up in job prospects.

And Ice I think you need to remember that a few people here and there get below median grades lol. You are definitely a fellow UVA law student.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Fri May 10, 2013 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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boblawlob
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby boblawlob » Fri May 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Go to Michigan and party hard with Krier the property professor.

Image

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UVAIce
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby UVAIce » Fri May 10, 2013 12:59 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.


I'm not saying you can't get back to the midwest from here (UVA). I know a lot of people who have done that funny enough. The issue is that it takes you out of the market for 3 years which has its problems. It's fine if you end up getting high grades (which is what all the people I know who went back ended up getting). But if you don't it's a headache because you are now hundreds of miles away from your choice market. Location is a practical issue because it prevents you from being in the know about smaller firms/local jobs. In addition, when you're grades aren't hot you don't want anything to make a prospective employer second guess giving you a chance. Again, if you get high grades all of this is a mute point--but you aren't guaranteed high grades.

Going to UVA over Michigan if you want to work in the Midwest is just one of those things that doesn't really have an upside, but could potentially have a serious downside. The same goes for leaving the market you want to work in generally if you aren't going to a school that provides a massive step up in job prospects.


This all indicates your lack of understanding of the "Midwest." I have friends who go to the University of Minnesota and know far less about what is going on in the Minnesota legal market than I do. Admittedly, I can't just drive downtown and attend an interview, but I wouldn't have been able to do that from Michigan either! I will admit that a majority of the firms from those markets don't come to OGI, but they are more than happy to take your resume and give you an interview.

I'm not trying to say that UVA "kills" in the Midwest, but come on. I think it's farcical to believe that you're going to get a statistically significant difference in outcomes in the Midwest between Michigan at median or Virginia at median. Admittedly you won't get any cool latin honors at UVA, but I consider that to be a huge plus.

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UVAIce
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby UVAIce » Fri May 10, 2013 1:01 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.


I'm not saying you can't get back to the midwest from here (UVA). I know a lot of people who have done that funny enough. The issue is that it takes you out of the market for 3 years which has its problems. It's fine if you end up getting high grades (which is what all the people I know who went back ended up getting). But if you don't it's a headache because you are now hundreds of miles away from your choice market. Location is a practical issue because it prevents you from being in the know about smaller firms/local jobs. In addition, when you're grades aren't hot you don't want anything to make a prospective employer second guess giving you a chance. Again, if you get high grades all of this is a mute point--but you aren't guaranteed high grades.

Going to UVA over Michigan if you want to work in the Midwest is just one of those things that doesn't really have an upside, but could potentially have a serious downside. The same goes for leaving the market you want to work in generally if you aren't going to a school that provides a massive step up in job prospects.

And Ice I think you need to remember that a few people here and there get below median grades lol. You are definitely a fellow UVA law student.


Sorry about having a double go at this, but I also don't see job outcomes being that much better in the Midwest for below median kids at Michigan either. I think at that point you're in kind of a pickle. But, just looking at the numbers, I would rather be below median at UVA than the same at Michigan. However, I can see the upside to being closer to your home region if you end up significantly below median.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby BruceWayne » Fri May 10, 2013 1:10 pm

You missed most of my point with the first post, but it seems you picked up on what I was saying with the second.


If you're median at either school yes things won't shake out substantially differently (and actually that's not necessarily true but I'll go with it). But if you're below it makes a big difference. You're still in the mindset of "everyone can get a biglaw job if they hit median, and if they don't hit median well...I don't know just don't let that happen". People who don't pull off median are essentially out of the running for biglaw (i.e. HALF of the class). When that happens you need a job at a small firm or public interest work. Those types of employers do not routinely travel nationwide for interviews. Case in point--the Cook County DA's office in Chicago is a great gig that is one of the few public interest employers who regularly hires entry level attorneys. They actually do interview fairly far out from Chicago--but UVA is not one of those places. A Michigan student can easily drive down to Chicago and interview for one of those positions if they so desire. And if they want to extern there (a BIG factor in Cook County's hiring decisions if not the biggest) they can do that as well. Doing that from UVA is a bit of a problem. Which brings me to...

When you take yourself out of the market you want to work in you lose the chance to to do externships during the semester. That is HUGE. People who don't get high grades are often hired because of their work externing during the semester and networking. Missing out on those kinds of opportunities can mean unemployment for students below the median. Not being in the market where you are trying to work also prevents you from simply being able to talk with attorneys there and being able to show your face--that sounds simple but that's how getting a job works outside of the biglaw high grades world.

You're too focused on the outcomes of those who do well at a top school, while discarding those who don't. That mindset is somewhat understandable because obviously you did well (and to be honest schools like UVA reinforce that mentality); but people need to understand what happens when you don't land the "easily attainable" median designation.

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jbagelboy
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 10, 2013 1:26 pm

Outcomes are similar enough that I agree with Bruce about location from a living standpoint.

Both schools are also national and have national placement power.

UVA does substantially better in DC if that matters to you. Otherwise go to whichever school you like best!

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Tom Joad
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby Tom Joad » Fri May 10, 2013 2:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You should decide this based off of 1)cost 2) location. If you're from the midwest go to Michigan. If you're from the mid-atlantic or the South go to UVA. If you aren't from either it doesn't really matter.

+1

UVA being solid in the Midwest doesn't mean Michigan isn't a little better, not that we even know where this guy is from.

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bk1
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby bk1 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:59 pm

UVAIce wrote:Because I'm from Minnesota and Michigan is cold. That and I just don't see the situation where the median Michigan kid gets the job and you don't. I know a number of folks in the Midwest that got big law with median grades from UVA.

I'm assuming anybody who wants to work in the midwest is okay with the cold. It's like that. The point is that going to UVA hurts you a bit for no real reason. That sort of disadvantage doesn't matter to someone who is picking among offers but if someone gets just 1 offer there is also the real possibility they could have gotten 0. When you're applying to smaller markets or markets that don't take a ton of people (and I fit Chicago in here since Chicago is so top heavy that if you can't get Sidley/Kirkland you're fighting for a bunch of firms that don't take a ton of summers).
UVAIce wrote:This all indicates your lack of understanding of the "Midwest." I have friends who go to the University of Minnesota and know far less about what is going on in the Minnesota legal market than I do. Admittedly, I can't just drive downtown and attend an interview, but I wouldn't have been able to do that from Michigan either! I will admit that a majority of the firms from those markets don't come to OGI, but they are more than happy to take your resume and give you an interview.

Trying to pull a callback through massmailing is much harder than trying to pull one from an OCI screener. Of course you'll be considered through massmail but you would be better off doing a screener. I just don't see the reason why someone who wants to work in the midwest would take UVA over UMich at equal cost. It just doesn't make sense.

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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri May 10, 2013 4:24 pm

Come on. These schools are as close to identical as possible, except one is in Virginia and one is in Michigan. Anything further is splitting hairs.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri May 10, 2013 4:38 pm

I'd choose Michigan simply because of Ann Arbor

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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby untar614 » Fri May 10, 2013 4:40 pm

I like how there was all this midwest-related bickering and the op never got back to say where s/he is from, but said s/he wants a major city. They place about the same in NYC and UVA does substantially better in DC, and UVA does about 10% better in the biglaw + fed clerk numbers, along with higher PI%, so unless s/he wants Chicago or some other major midwest city specifically and there isnt a major price difference, I'd say UVA is the way to go. But we still don't know the COAs.

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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby BigZuck » Fri May 10, 2013 5:05 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
UVAIce wrote:I have to completely disagree with Bruce Wayne on this. I'm from the Midwest and I've gotten nothing but awesome responses from firms about my going to UVA. I'm also having lunch with a dozen plus partners from UVA in my home market this summer. I'm not trying to imply that UVA does better in the Midwest, but you can EASILY get back from UVA if you have ties.


I'm not saying you can't get back to the midwest from here (UVA). I know a lot of people who have done that funny enough. The issue is that it takes you out of the market for 3 years which has its problems. It's fine if you end up getting high grades (which is what all the people I know who went back ended up getting). But if you don't it's a headache because you are now hundreds of miles away from your choice market. Location is a practical issue because it prevents you from being in the know about smaller firms/local jobs. In addition, when you're grades aren't hot you don't want anything to make a prospective employer second guess giving you a chance. Again, if you get high grades all of this is a mute point--but you aren't guaranteed high grades.

Going to UVA over Michigan if you want to work in the Midwest is just one of those things that doesn't really have an upside, but could potentially have a serious downside. The same goes for leaving the market you want to work in generally if you aren't going to a school that provides a massive step up in job prospects.

And Ice I think you need to remember that a few people here and there get below median grades lol. You are definitely a fellow UVA law student.


*moot*

koala257
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby koala257 » Fri May 10, 2013 5:17 pm

Hi,

Thank you so much for your replies!! I'm primarily interested in NYC...but possibly DC and SF (so the midwest conversation doesn't really apply to me...)

I know that UVA is ranked higher than UMich (I've done that much research...), but they're so close in ranking anyways. Does the difference between 7th and 9th in ranking matter?? I'm okay with the living condition in either areas. UVA's probably better as far as living condition is concerned (or so I hear), but I don't mind Ann Arbor. I wish I could visit both schools, but I can't really fit it into my schedule..
Also, what are your thoughts on corporate law and international law in either schools?

The thing is, I've "heard" a lot about UMich being great, etc., but I haven't heard much about UVA...All I know is that it's ranked higher. Does that say anything though? (or am I just misinformed..?)

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untar614
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby untar614 » Fri May 10, 2013 6:08 pm

koala257 wrote:Hi,

Thank you so much for your replies!! I'm primarily interested in NYC...but possibly DC and SF (so the midwest conversation doesn't really apply to me...)

I know that UVA is ranked higher than UMich (I've done that much research...), but they're so close in ranking anyways. Does the difference between 7th and 9th in ranking matter?? I'm okay with the living condition in either areas. UVA's probably better as far as living condition is concerned (or so I hear), but I don't mind Ann Arbor. I wish I could visit both schools, but I can't really fit it into my schedule..
Also, what are your thoughts on corporate law and international law in either schools?

The thing is, I've "heard" a lot about UMich being great, etc., but I haven't heard much about UVA...All I know is that it's ranked higher. Does that say anything though? (or am I just misinformed..?)


The ranking difference doesn't mean much. And what ur hearing about Mich is likely based off of it being ranked in the top 3 way back in the day. What is important is employment prospects. Check em out:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=michigan

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva

WahooLaw24
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby WahooLaw24 » Fri May 10, 2013 8:38 pm

untar614 wrote:
koala257 wrote:Hi,

Thank you so much for your replies!! I'm primarily interested in NYC...but possibly DC and SF (so the midwest conversation doesn't really apply to me...)

I know that UVA is ranked higher than UMich (I've done that much research...), but they're so close in ranking anyways. Does the difference between 7th and 9th in ranking matter?? I'm okay with the living condition in either areas. UVA's probably better as far as living condition is concerned (or so I hear), but I don't mind Ann Arbor. I wish I could visit both schools, but I can't really fit it into my schedule..
Also, what are your thoughts on corporate law and international law in either schools?

The thing is, I've "heard" a lot about UMich being great, etc., but I haven't heard much about UVA...All I know is that it's ranked higher. Does that say anything though? (or am I just misinformed..?)


The ranking difference doesn't mean much. And what ur hearing about Mich is likely based off of it being ranked in the top 3 way back in the day. What is important is employment prospects. Check em out:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=michigan

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva



This. The 7 vs. 9 distinction is in itself meaningless, but the gap in employment is real (though admittedly small) and has been for a few years. Unless you have a good reason for choosing Michigan (doesn't sound like you do), I'd go UVA here.

Real Madrid
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby Real Madrid » Sat May 11, 2013 8:21 am

untar614 wrote:I like how there was all this midwest-related bickering and the op never got back to say where s/he is from, but said s/he wants a major city. They place about the same in NYC and UVA does substantially better in DC, and UVA does about 10% better in the biglaw + fed clerk numbers, along with higher PI%, so unless s/he wants Chicago or some other major midwest city specifically and there isnt a major price difference, I'd say UVA is the way to go. But we still don't know the COAs.


This is false. Most of UVA's PI placement is actually made up of school-funded positions. Michigan significantly out-places UVA in legitimate PI.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: UMichigan vs. UVA - PLEASE help me decide!!

Postby Doorkeeper » Sat May 11, 2013 9:05 am

If tuition isn't a problem for you (as opposed to it just not being a "concern"), then just choose the school you like more. Visit the schools, talk to students, and make a decision. Their outcome statistics are close enough so that you can feel assured making a decision based on personal preferences.




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