Final poll: UMN$$$ vs GW$. have to make decision by tomorrow Forum

[jing87]

COA UMN 55k, GW 135K (COL number as estimated from each school websites)
backgound: BSBME, MSEE. No ties anywhere.
Goal: IP big law (I know, I know,not very realistic)
Already deposited with UMN, GW's deadline is tomorrow, please give me some advice, thanks!
Side notes: Family offered to help with the tuition, but I don't feel comfortable to accept that, so most likely I have to take the whole debt myself.

[WokeUpInACar]

That's still too much for GW, but for IP Biglaw it's WAY better than Minnesota.

[jing87]

That's still too much for GW, but for IP Biglaw it's WAY better than Minnesota.

I know, that is why it's too tough for me to make decision now.

[lawschoolwoohoo]

Where do you want to live/practice?

[jing87]

Where do you want to live/practice?

I am from oversea, so there is not a city or state I feel I must go there to work. But preferable bigger city.

[WokeUpInACar]

GW isn't optimal, and I would think you'd be better off pursuing a job in your field instead of attending law school, but it wouldn't be the worst decision in the world. Minnesota really shouldn't be an option here honestly.

[Doorkeeper]

$135 is a lot for GW, but if you want to do IP and you have a MSEE, then I think you gotta go GWU.

[jing87]

Can those people voted give me your reason please, thanks!
And I will be so desappointed if the poll result is 50% vs 50%.

[BigZuck]

I would either retake, not go to law school, or swallow your pride and take your family's money and attend GW (assuming they can more than afford it). Those are in order of best to worst.

[hephaestus]

$135 is a lot for GW, but if you want to do IP and you have a MSEE, then I think you gotta go GWU.

Yeah this.

[cahwc12]

$135 is a lot for GW, but if you want to do IP and you have a MSEE, then I think you gotta go GWU.

Strongly agree with this. 135 is very high for GW, but MSEE into IP gives you a different tier of job outlook than the standard numbers.

What are your numbers and why can't you retake or work a year? Like most posts in this forum, you lack enough information to give solid advice to, but in filling in the holes:

If your GPA is holding you back, probably bite at GW, but not before sending one last convincing email about shipping off to Minnesota because it's cheaper. Maybe they'll up the ante slightly more.

If your LSAT is holding you back, you need to strongly consider retaking and working a year. Unlike most people with gap years, your MSEE gives you a much easier time getting a job in industry. You could be looking at Stanford or GW for free if you wait a year and retake.

What is your current WE like?

[jing87]

I am from oversea so I don't have a LSGPA. But it is i fact very low, and I bet any T14 saw my transcript would't be happy with that.
About the retake. I can only wait until this Oct to retake, if didn't score well , then have to wait until next June. English is my second language and I am afraid I can't improve it too much in such a short time.
I feel I am too old (26) and plus I am a female, so I really don't want to graduate law school after 30...I know this may sound stupid.
edit: I worked at a small local law firm for a couple of years after school, but that firm has nothing to do with IP.

[goldeneye]

While GW at 135 is a lot, with your degree and likely foreign language skills, you should be okay. You should consider taking money from your family but treat it as a loan to them. Maybe draft up a contract with them if you want to make sure you pay them back.

Plus, GW is at least better known than Minnesota if you aren't sure where you want to be.

[jbagelboy]

I would marginally vote GW only because i know from OPs post history they arent interested in practicing/living in MN longterm.

However, please explain how GW has this massive bump for IP candidates over UMN. Seems like a TLS rumor fabrication that is repeated so often it becomes fact. All patent eligible candidates at any school have a small advantage in his market, Minnesota has strong IP contacts in twin cities with plenty of F500 companies and one of the best medical/health law connections with plenty of patent work due to the top med school. IP is in fact the only way to get biglaw market salary out of UMN (160-170K). How is Minnesota objectively "worse" for IP (other then its generally weaker job figures)?

[jing87]

I would marginally vote GW only because i know from OPs post history they arent interested in practicing/living in MN longterm.

However, please explain how GW has this massive bump for IP candidates over UMN. Seems like a TLS rumor fabrication that is repeated so often it becomes fact. All patent eligible candidates at any school have a small advantage in his market, Minnesota has strong IP contacts in twin cities with plenty of F500 companies and one of the best medical/health law connections with plenty of patent work due to the top med school. IP is in fact the only way to get biglaw market salary out of UMN (160-170K). How is Minnesota objectively "worse" for IP (other then its generally weaker job figures)?

so you think I should choose GW even for that much higher price?
For some reason I really like you, your post is always reasonable and rational.

[goldeneye]

I would marginally vote GW only because i know from OPs post history they arent interested in practicing/living in MN longterm.

However, please explain how GW has this massive bump for IP candidates over UMN. Seems like a TLS rumor fabrication that is repeated so often it becomes fact. All patent eligible candidates at any school have a small advantage in his market, Minnesota has strong IP contacts in twin cities with plenty of F500 companies and one of the best medical/health law connections with plenty of patent work due to the top med school. IP is in fact the only way to get biglaw market salary out of UMN (160-170K). How is Minnesota objectively "worse" for IP (other then its generally weaker job figures)?

Because going to Minnesota is great if you want to live in Minnesota. If she isn't sure, GW opens way more doors location wise.

[minnbills]

UMN and it's not close. There is a big $$ difference between these schools. With a strong IP background you will be fine.

[jbagelboy]

I would marginally vote GW only because i know from OPs post history they arent interested in practicing/living in MN longterm.

However, please explain how GW has this massive bump for IP candidates over UMN. Seems like a TLS rumor fabrication that is repeated so often it becomes fact. All patent eligible candidates at any school have a small advantage in his market, Minnesota has strong IP contacts in twin cities with plenty of F500 companies and one of the best medical/health law connections with plenty of patent work due to the top med school. IP is in fact the only way to get biglaw market salary out of UMN (160-170K). How is Minnesota objectively "worse" for IP (other then its generally weaker job figures)?

Because going to Minnesota is great if you want to live in Minnesota. If she isn't sure, GW opens way more doors location wise.

read the first line of my post. I acknowledge UMN is geographically limiting. What I'm asking is why so many posters make blanket statements about GW for IP location notwithstanding (not trying to be snarky that just didn't really address my question)

[deadpoetnsp]

OP, since I'm a 2L at UMN, I'm biased towards UMN. But instead of my subjective opinion, I thought I will give you data, and then you decide.

UMN is ranked 19th, and GWU is 21st on US News. OK, don't like those rankings? Above The Law has employment-focused rankings (http://abovethelaw.com/careers/law-scho ... /#rankings), and GWU is 31 and Minnesota is 32.

These are the employment stats:
GWU (http://abovethelaw.com/schools/george-w ... employment)
27% large law firm, 23% school funded, 5% unemployed. 81% bar passage required.

UMN (http://abovethelaw.com/schools/universi ... employment)
14% large law firm, 7% school funded, 1% unemployed. 67% bar passage required.

Now look at the COA again. Evaluate your money situation, career goals, your preferences, etc. Look at the rankings again. Look at the money again. Look at the employment stats again. And then the COA. And why not once again? You get the drill.

I am an international, have an engineering background, have a great summer position lined up, and am very happy at UMN. I was in the same situation as you, and turned down GWU.

OP, PM me if you have questions about UMN or the Twin Cities or law school in general or how law schools make engineers humble or the special problems that plague international students

[BigZuck]

I'm sorry I just think that is way too much money to pay for GWU. The OP has some difficulties with English and her scholastic record is quite spotty. I think this all is potentially a recipe for striking out unless IP really is the cure all boost that people make it out to be (and maybe it is, I have no idea). Do we have any idea of how well immigrant minority ESL women fare in big law? I'm not saying the OP is not intelligent or capable enough, I'm honestly just wondering about hiring biases and things like that. As it stands now it looks like the OP hasn't even considered interest accumulating or tuition increases and she will be in quite a bit of debt out of GWU. That will require years of big law to pay off and as it stands I'm not super confident that she will both get it and stay long enough to pay down the debt.

I don't know that Minnesota is the right answer either. The debt is significantly less, but the job prospects out of that school just aren't all that good (but again, maybe the IP boost mitigates that).

I feel like just staying in her current field and using her advanced degree might make the most sense.

[jbagelboy]

I would marginally vote GW only because i know from OPs post history they arent interested in practicing/living in MN longterm.

However, please explain how GW has this massive bump for IP candidates over UMN. Seems like a TLS rumor fabrication that is repeated so often it becomes fact. All patent eligible candidates at any school have a small advantage in his market, Minnesota has strong IP contacts in twin cities with plenty of F500 companies and one of the best medical/health law connections with plenty of patent work due to the top med school. IP is in fact the only way to get biglaw market salary out of UMN (160-170K). How is Minnesota objectively "worse" for IP (other then its generally weaker job figures)?

so you think I should choose GW even for that much higher price?
For some reason I really like you, your post is always reasonable and rational.

Thank you for the praise, I try to keep it civil. I like you too!

I think location aside UMN is the right choice here (because of cost), but I've gathered from your posts here and on other threads that living in the twin cities post-grad doesn't appeal to you. Even the career officers at UMN will admit when pressed that they have overwhelmingly regional placement (some will say "oh its because people want to stay here" but that's at best a plurality of cases). Minneapolis is an underrated city and its a perfectly suitable location to work and have a family, but it won't offer the same diversity that you might be looking for as an international student as DC area.

I think you are in a decent position to get a job either way (some say GW more for IP but I'm doubtful - do your own research here), so the question you have to ask yourself is whether you would rather spend 1 year paying off debt (assuming 2L SA since IP) with foreseeable future in Minneapolis until you find a lateral out, or 3 years paying off debt in DC/NYC.

[jbagelboy]

Do we have any idea of how well immigrant minority ESL women fare in big law? I'm not saying the OP is not intelligent or capable enough, I'm honestly just wondering about hiring biases and things like that.

if she can read and write a patent, then the qualities you mentioned won't hold her back. Her english seems perfectly fine for that purpose. I agree with you in general about biglaw and white collar service professions, but given the credentials and the distinct nature of that particular field, I wouldn't be worried.

[Randomnumbers]

The problem isn't biases or how well she can do the work. It's doing well on issue-spotter horse race law school exams when you struggle with the language. If your english isn't great, you are going to have an incredibly hard time getting good enough grades to get biglaw through either of those schools. And she's not 'IPsecure' if her undergrad grades are shit, as she indicates.

[jing87]

I'm sorry I just think that is way too much money to pay for GWU. The OP has some difficulties with English and her scholastic record is quite spotty. I think this all is potentially a recipe for striking out unless IP really is the cure all boost that people make it out to be (and maybe it is, I have no idea). Do we have any idea of how well immigrant minority ESL women fare in big law? I'm not saying the OP is not intelligent or capable enough, I'm honestly just wondering about hiring biases and things like that. As it stands now it looks like the OP hasn't even considered interest accumulating or tuition increases and she will be in quite a bit of debt out of GWU. That will require years of big law to pay off and as it stands I'm not super confident that she will both get it and stay long enough to pay down the debt.

I don't know that Minnesota is the right answer either. The debt is significantly less, but the job prospects out of that school just aren't all that good (but again, maybe the IP boost mitigates that).

I feel like just staying in her current field and using her advanced degree might make the most sense.

I agree part of what you said. First, my English really sucks, I started learning English a few years ago and there is still a long way to go. Second, talked to an Asian female who now is a boutique IP firm partner at Chicago, and she admitted, when you are Asian and also female, your client and even your colleagues don't think you are as capable as those white male lawyers.
I guess these are some difficulties I have to face. But on the other hand, if the firm has oversea business like in Asia, they may want to use me as a talent . Also, the most important thing is, hey, I am pretty hot, isn't that is a cure for all the problems?..lol....kidding...

[jing87]

In the end, the poll result is 45% vs 54 %。。sigh...with this odds, I should just flip a coin.
But still thanks all the people replied or PMed me, thanks for your useful information and thoughts, though I still have no clue I am gonna go. I see some really nice people here both from UMN and GW, so I am sure no matter where I chose I would be glad with my decision.