UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which school given my situation?

UCLA $$$
26
47%
Penn $
29
53%
 
Total votes: 55

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Lasers
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Lasers » Thu May 09, 2013 4:58 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
Lasers wrote:damn, tough one.

no debt though? that's huge.

what's the chances of not getting biglaw at penn?

Any big law, roughly 40% not accounting for self selection.

hm; if accounting for clerkships, etc. it would probably be closer to 25-30%. still, there's a chance OP will end up in a "worst possible" scenario. if OP goes to UCLA and doesn't get biglaw, OP won't have any debt and will be in CA.

toss up. OP has to determine how much he/she values CA. as much as i only wanted CA when i was going in, i would probably not turn down penn.

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bk1
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby bk1 » Thu May 09, 2013 9:40 am

Ibracadabra wrote:
bk1 wrote:
bruin91 wrote:But that wasn't the question... The question was which school should OP choose given his preferences for BigLaw in CA with the aid as it stands.

Which is why doorkeeper asked the follow up. CA biglaw is not a likely outcome from either of these schools so the question becomes which part of CA biglaw is more important to OP, the CA part or the biglaw part?


What I am curious about now is how UCLA compares to Penn solely when discussing CA big law.

I think the difference is marginal at best.

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OutCold
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby OutCold » Thu May 09, 2013 1:44 pm

I'm at Penn. Just about everyone I know that had ties to Cali and wanted to go back was able to find a firm job out there.

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Rahviveh
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Rahviveh » Thu May 09, 2013 1:56 pm

OutCold wrote:I'm at Penn. Just about everyone I know that had ties to Cali and wanted to go back was able to find a firm job out there.


Mind sharing approximate grade range? And any peers who tried to go back to CA?
Last edited by Rahviveh on Thu May 09, 2013 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ibracadabra
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Ibracadabra » Thu May 09, 2013 3:23 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
OutCold wrote:I'm at Penn. Just about everyone I know that had ties to Cali and wanted to go back was able to find a firm job out there.


Mind sharing approximate grade range? And any peers who tried to go back to C?

I'm interested in this as well.

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Nelson
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Nelson » Thu May 09, 2013 4:58 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Mind sharing approximate grade range?
The number of Penn kids targeting markets not NYC/Philly in a given year is too small a sample size to meaningfully generalize. Better grades always help. A secondary market search is going to be a lot more about mass mailing and whatever personal connections you can leverage than OCI anyway.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:02 pm

I don't even think this is a close call. You should go to Penn. I think it's a no brainer. At some point, you have to weigh the likelihood of you getting a job, in the first place. The chances of that happening are just far greater at Penn. I know you would like to be in So Cal, but just keep in mind that you are going to have to place decently high in your class at UCLA to get a biglaw job in So Cal. If that doesn't happen, you are faced with not so good job prospects. At Penn, a job is going to fall in your lap for the most part. It may not be in Cali, but a job in the northeast is better than being unemployed/underemployed in Cali.

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Nelson
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Nelson » Fri May 10, 2013 1:58 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:At Penn, a job is going to fall in your lap for the most part.
LOL

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 2:28 pm

Nelson wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:At Penn, a job is going to fall in your lap for the most part.
LOL


A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.

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jbagelboy
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 10, 2013 3:12 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:19 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you


I don't think you guys understood what I meant. I did not mean that the jobs fall in your lap. I used "fall in your lap for the most part," meaning that getting a job as a lawyer coming out of Penn is a lot easier than getting a job coming out of some other law school. Am I reading those numbers on LST wrong? Are we to read the numbers for all other schools but ignore the ones for Penn? Am I missing something?

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:21 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you


And maybe falling in your lap is not the most apt term. I do think this is all relative.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:25 pm

Do people at other law schools not resort to hard core tactics to get legal jobs? No other law students try super hard to get jobs? The Penn kids try harder? Is that what you guys are trying to say? Perhaps, that's why I'm "off" with my assessment.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:26 pm

The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life.


I'm pretty well acquainted with law school.

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Micdiddy
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 10, 2013 3:27 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:Do people at other law schools not resort to hard core tactics to get legal jobs? No other law students try super hard to get jobs? The Penn kids try harder? Is that what you guys are trying to say? Perhaps, that's why I'm "off" with my assessment.


I think you're off because you keep making up shit that no one is saying.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:28 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Do people at other law schools not resort to hard core tactics to get legal jobs? No other law students try super hard to get jobs? The Penn kids try harder? Is that what you guys are trying to say? Perhaps, that's why I'm "off" with my assessment.


I think you're off because you keep making up shit that no one is saying.


What am I making up?

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Micdiddy
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 10, 2013 3:30 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
Micdiddy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:Do people at other law schools not resort to hard core tactics to get legal jobs? No other law students try super hard to get jobs? The Penn kids try harder? Is that what you guys are trying to say? Perhaps, that's why I'm "off" with my assessment.


I think you're off because you keep making up shit that no one is saying.


What am I making up?


utlaw2007 wrote:Do people at other law schools not resort to hard core tactics to get legal jobs? No other law students try super hard to get jobs? The Penn kids try harder? Is that what you guys are trying to say? Perhaps, that's why I'm "off" with my assessment.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 3:35 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you



I responded that way because this post seems to imply that Penn students work harder to get jobs than other law students. This was the response when the poster responded to my response about Penn's employment numbers. My point is that many law students work really hard to get jobs. But attending Penn puts one in a much better position to be successful in finding gainful employment relative to UCLA. That was really all I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't say it in the best way, but that was the message I was attempting to convey.

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Micdiddy
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 10, 2013 3:39 pm

utlaw2007 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you



I responded that way because this post seems to imply that Penn students work harder to get jobs than other law students. This was the response when the poster responded to my response about Penn's employment numbers. My point is that many law students work really hard to get jobs. But attending Penn puts one in a much better position to be successful in finding gainful employment relative to UCLA. That was really all I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't say it in the best way, but that was the message I was attempting to convey.


Yes, that's fine, thanks for clarifying. No one will argue that Penn has better job prospects than UCLA, but yes you clearly didn't say that the best way and a little clarification was all that was needed.

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jbagelboy
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby jbagelboy » Fri May 10, 2013 3:49 pm

Micdiddy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
utlaw2007 wrote:A 92% employment rate is not synonymous with a law job falling in your lap to you? It is to me. Having to work to get a job and get your name out there is not exclusive to Penn. A lot of people do those things and still have no job.

And a biglaw job rate of over 66% is also pretty synonymous with a job falling in your lap as far as I'm concerned.

I understand that you probably attend Penn. And from your vantage point, getting a job, even coming out of Penn, is not that easy. That may be true, but relative to many other places, it is that easy.


lol dude this is so stupid no offense. getting into penn law is a huge accomplishment, but its not like you call it quits there. The next three years in law school will be potentially the hardest of your life. the reason why penn and peer schools place so well is largely because its student body IS so accomplished, so determined, and so happily willing to kill baby puppies to get that legal job. If you go to a top law school and you don't try, you will be in that 10% margin of failure, because what you should realize real quick is that everyone else is trying as hard as they fucking can -- and when nothing "falls into your lap" if you don't gun for your 2L SA or clerkship or LRAP-eligible competitive PI position, good luck getting the university to finance your debt for you



I responded that way because this post seems to imply that Penn students work harder to get jobs than other law students. This was the response when the poster responded to my response about Penn's employment numbers. My point is that many law students work really hard to get jobs. But attending Penn puts one in a much better position to be successful in finding gainful employment relative to UCLA. That was really all I was trying to say. Maybe I didn't say it in the best way, but that was the message I was attempting to convey.


Yes, that's fine, thanks for clarifying. No one will argue that Penn has better job prospects than UCLA, but yes you clearly didn't say that the best way and a little clarification was all that was needed.


I'm happy to table this too, but my post said nothing of the sort you bolded. your statements were anything but relative -- you didn't even mention UCLA in your post, you just said jobs would fall into your lap at penn. micdiddy and I were correcting this flawed assumption. I think we can all agree that getting a legal job out of Penn is more doable than UCLA. doesn't make it "easy" in either scenario

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OutCold
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby OutCold » Fri May 10, 2013 4:57 pm

Nelson wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:Mind sharing approximate grade range?
The number of Penn kids targeting markets not NYC/Philly in a given year is too small a sample size to meaningfully generalize. Better grades always help. A secondary market search is going to be a lot more about mass mailing and whatever personal connections you can leverage than OCI anyway.


This is right for the most part. But I should mention that Cali was the second or third highest represented state in my class. I really can't give you a meaningful range because, quite frankly, I don't know. We don't have ranks and most people don't share their grades. All I can say is that there are many people not on law review that had no problem landing Cali firms.

As to the jobs falling in your lap thing... There were plenty of people hustling to line something up late in the game. You have a really good shot at biglaw from Penn, and I don't personally know anyone that missed the boat if that's what they wanted, but clearly these people aren't advertising that fact. Median is pretty safe though, which is more than you can say about most schools.

utlaw2007
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Re: UCLA $$$ vs Penn $

Postby utlaw2007 » Fri May 10, 2013 5:24 pm

I'm happy to table this too, but my post said nothing of the sort you bolded. your statements were anything but relative -- you didn't even mention UCLA in your post, you just said jobs would fall into your lap at penn. micdiddy and I were correcting this flawed assumption. I think we can all agree that getting a legal job out of Penn is more doable than UCLA. doesn't make it "easy" in either scenario


My statements were relative. There were misleading almost to the point of implying an untruth, as you have pointed out, but they were relative. They were relative because they were statements of opinion. And opinions are relative in this sense. You might think a person is fast. Your opinion is based on your experiences. I might think that same person is slow as hell based on my experiences. That's where I was coming from. That's what I meant by relative. And I assumed people would understand that I was referring to UCLA since that school is one of the named schools that is the topic of this thread.

But it's cool. That misunderstanding is out of the way.




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