Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?!

Poll ended at Wed May 15, 2013 4:09 pm

Boalt
66
87%
GULC
10
13%
 
Total votes: 76

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beepboopbeep
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby beepboopbeep » Tue May 07, 2013 10:30 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
longhorn90 wrote: I speak 3 languages and want to continue learning Arabic. Hope that helps?


Stopped reading right here. If you're even halfway fluent in Arabic, forget law, go into translation. HUGE demand for Arabic translators right now.


Not sure how much you know about Arabic, but it's not that simple.

It's a diglossic language and if OP just studied it in college, fusha will not be enough. I did 3.5 years of formal arabic at a school with a strong department and that shit was worse than worthless in the middle east. You need 3miya and you can only really get that through immersion. The people in my classes who ended up putting their arabic to actual use were those that spent at least a summer or two and a semester of study abroad. It doesn't sound like OP did that.

There might be some bridge programs that will teach dialects, but I'm not as up on that stuff as I once was. AUC/AUB would be worth looking into, but the costs aren't insignificant since college study grants won't be available. Translation is also just not for everyone. Tekrul's advice is sound - I wouldn't be surprised if you could line something up at an agency with that level of language proficiency.

I voted for Boalt, btw, although reluctantly. GULC seems better-aligned with OP's stated interests, but it's hard to justify sticker there.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue May 07, 2013 10:45 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
texas1990 wrote:. I know people will say Georgetown definitely

You must be new here.


When I read that in OP's original post, I had to make sure I was reading it correctly. There's definitely a lot of GULC haters on TLS.

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Tue May 07, 2013 10:59 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
texas1990 wrote:. I know people will say Georgetown definitely

You must be new here.


When I read that in OP's original post, I had to make sure I was reading it correctly. There's definitely a lot of GULC haters on TLS.


Deservedly so. Georgetown is the old Michigan.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 08, 2013 2:12 am

BigZuck wrote:Deservedly so. Georgetown is the old Michigan.


I lol'd

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Redamon1
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Redamon1 » Wed May 08, 2013 2:45 am

worldtraveler wrote:
ph14 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.


The differences are marginal enough that he should pick based on where he wants to work and live. It doesn't make sense to go to Berkeley if he wants to work in D.C. or even in New York, assuming equal costs.


LOL no.


OP - you can get to DC just fine from Berkeley. Many do it. As worldtraveler said, however, you might need to broaden your horizons jobs wise, perhaps by starting with BigLaw in DC or aiming for BigFed more generally rather than just DOJ.

CourCour
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby CourCour » Wed May 08, 2013 8:48 am

Georgetown has a separate international law library/resource center, significant coursework in international law and related areas (the curriculum guide has 11 related course clusters), and 3 related journals (immigration, international law, and national security.) One of the stories my alumni interviewer told me about was when 8 of the ICC judges came to stay on campus for a week.

Georgetown also has a great LRAP program if you can get public interest employment. I spoke with the director of financial aid. Its guaranteed for any student who lands a job in government or for a non-profit. If you make $75k or less they pay back your full loan for you until its forgiven by the feds. If you make more than that they pay back a portion of your loan for you. (According to their calculator if you made $95k a year they would back pack $54k of the $114k you'd be required to pay. The downside is carrying around the debt. You should definitely look into Berkeley's LRAP program and talk directly with admissions to make sure its guaranteed, not subject to funding.

I'll also add that one of the pluses of Georgetown is the chance to intern during the semester. While lots of the summer internships offered in DC are hyper competitive, it can be easier to land them during the year. At ASD, I spoke with a GW student who had interned during semester at DOJ and used that to get a summer placement there.

Have you applied to/ gotten any $$ from GW. They actually have a great DC placement rate. I ended up choosing GULC over GW because I want ability to move back to Boston. If they gave you enough $ to supplement what your parents are offering they might make sense. GW's LRAP program sucks though.

All that being said, Berkeley was my first choice (they dinged me). San Fran has great activism network. I'm going to try and get summer placement at the Electronic Frontier Foundation out there.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 08, 2013 12:58 pm

CourCour wrote:Georgetown has a separate international law library/resource center, significant coursework in international law and related areas (the curriculum guide has 11 related course clusters), and 3 related journals (immigration, international law, and national security.) One of the stories my alumni interviewer told me about was when 8 of the ICC judges came to stay on campus for a week.


All of this sounds really "cool" as a student, and 8 months ago it probably factored into me applying to Georgetown, but none of it helps you get a job in international law or policy in any meaningful way. OP should make their decision less on the flashy on-campus educational, pedagogic, or academic experiences and more on the post-grad employment opportunities. My intellectual roots feel sick saying this but it is true.

CourCour wrote: Georgetown also has a great LRAP program if you can get public interest employment. I spoke with the director of financial aid. Its guaranteed for any student who lands a job in government or for a non-profit. If you make $75k or less they pay back your full loan for you until its forgiven by the feds. If you make more than that they pay back a portion of your loan for you. (According to their calculator if you made $95k a year they would back pack $54k of the $114k you'd be required to pay. The downside is carrying around the debt. You should definitely look into Berkeley's LRAP program and talk directly with admissions to make sure its guaranteed, not subject to funding.


This is a very, very optimistic portrayal of LRAP. Unless you're at Yale, it sucks a lot more than this makes it sound. Also, the bolded is extremely conditional. IF you work for 10 years making under $75,000 in certain specific LRAP-guaranteed positions (which are not that easy to procure OR remain employed with for 10 years), they reimburse you for payments made via PAYE or IBR. So buyers beware.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed May 08, 2013 1:24 pm

BigZuck wrote:
PRgradBYU wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:
texas1990 wrote:. I know people will say Georgetown definitely

You must be new here.


When I read that in OP's original post, I had to make sure I was reading it correctly. There's definitely a lot of GULC haters on TLS.


Deservedly so. Georgetown is the old Michigan.


:lol:

This may have been before your time, but back in the day, weren't there a fair number of anti-Penn TLSers?

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 08, 2013 1:25 pm

BigZuck wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.


Honest question: what are the signs that point to Berkeley having better national placement power?

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 08, 2013 1:29 pm

PR- I'm not sure. I am old in human years but not TLS time. Since I have been here everyone's boner has been rock hard for Penn (and Northwestern).

CourCour
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby CourCour » Wed May 08, 2013 1:58 pm

I'm just a 0L so I haven't been through process of getting a job. I'm a little bit older so I've watched friends do it. I've also worked in gov't and politics for 4 years and don't think the value of interning, networking can be understated.

It doesn't seem like theres a clear winner here as to which would give better prospects for getting a job in DC. On one hand, UCB has better overall stats (LST: 85.9 employment score, 8.3 underemployment for UCB versus 73.2 and 12.8 respectively for GTown.) On the other hand, 58.3% of UCB grads stay in Cali, only 8.3% go to DC. At GTown, 40.9% stay in DC.

Does UCB's overall better placement stats, outweigh advantage of being able to network, build relationships in DC for 3 years?

Unless you're top of the class at either school, cream of the crop jobs like the DOJ honors program are going to be hard to crack.

jbagelboy wrote:
This is a very, very optimistic portrayal of LRAP. Unless you're at Yale, it sucks a lot more than this makes it sound. Also, the bolded is extremely conditional. IF you work for 10 years making under $75,000 in certain specific LRAP-guaranteed positions (which are not that easy to procure OR remain employed with for 10 years), they reimburse you for payments made via PAYE or IBR. So buyers beware.


At Georgetown, LRAP eligible employment is "employed or self-employed, on a full-time, paid basis (must be receiving a W-2 form from your employer) in a law-related capacity by a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, non-profit international organization, or by a federal, state, local or tribal government agency. (JD degree must be preferred or required.)" I clarified there weren't further restrictions with the financial aid department because I saw at other schools it was limited to public defender, prosecutor like work.

I believe they do require you to use IBR or PAYE. However, instead of reimbursements they give you a block of money to make your payments with every 6 months.

Link to description of eligible employment: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... oyment.cfm

Link to general info on LRAP: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... AP-III.cfm

CourCour
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby CourCour » Wed May 08, 2013 2:10 pm

I'll add that I don't think its an obvious/ easy choice. If you aren't sure that DC is for you and might be open to Cali, then UCB is probably better. I'm trying to provide a counterbalance to the TLS groupthink that GULC is never a good choice.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed May 08, 2013 2:17 pm

Go work for the State Dept (or whatever) instead of going to law school right now.

If you have to go to law school, go to Berkeley.

LRAPs are mostly a flame.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 08, 2013 2:24 pm

CourCour wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
This is a very, very optimistic portrayal of LRAP. Unless you're at Yale, it sucks a lot more than this makes it sound. Also, the bolded is extremely conditional. IF you work for 10 years making under $75,000 in certain specific LRAP-guaranteed positions (which are not that easy to procure OR remain employed with for 10 years), they reimburse you for payments made via PAYE or IBR. So buyers beware.


At Georgetown, LRAP eligible employment is "employed or self-employed, on a full-time, paid basis (must be receiving a W-2 form from your employer) in a law-related capacity by a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization, non-profit international organization, or by a federal, state, local or tribal government agency. (JD degree must be preferred or required.)" I clarified there weren't further restrictions with the financial aid department because I saw at other schools it was limited to public defender, prosecutor like work.

I believe they do require you to use IBR or PAYE. However, instead of reimbursements they give you a block of money to make your payments with every 6 months.

Link to description of eligible employment: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... oyment.cfm

Link to general info on LRAP: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... AP-III.cfm


I read through the LRAP descriptions for most of the schools I was considering including Gtown. I'll grant you, if you are truly committed to PI work for 10+ years, this LRAP III is impressive. I would still approach ANY financial information coming from a law school other than a hard cash grant or scholarship with a healthy dose of cynicism.

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danielr
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby danielr » Wed May 08, 2013 2:25 pm

CourCour wrote:I'll add that I don't think its an obvious/ easy choice. If you aren't sure that DC is for you and might be open to Cali, then UCB is probably better. I'm trying to provide a counterbalance to the TLS groupthink that GULC is never a good choice.


Be prepared for vitriol and unfocused criticism, then. All I ever encounter by way of GULC criticism is some variation of the claim that their employment stats are terrible. Yet, by ATL standards--according to their ranking methodology, that is, which many of the "GULC haters" on this website think are best and indeed preferable to USNEWS--Georgetown is ranked 16/50, which is only two spots different from its USNEWS rank. There is definitely room for improvement as far as employment opportunities go, but that applies to the legal field in general. GULC is not perfect; but of course, no place is, and there are opportunities for those who work hard, make connections, and get lucky.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Wed May 08, 2013 2:41 pm

danielr wrote:
CourCour wrote:I'll add that I don't think its an obvious/ easy choice. If you aren't sure that DC is for you and might be open to Cali, then UCB is probably better. I'm trying to provide a counterbalance to the TLS groupthink that GULC is never a good choice.


Be prepared for vitriol and unfocused criticism, then. All I ever encounter by way of GULC criticism is some variation of the claim that their employment stats are terrible. Yet, by ATL standards--according to their ranking methodology, that is, which many of the "GULC haters" on this website think are best and indeed preferable to USNEWS--Georgetown is ranked 16/50, which is only two spots different from its USNEWS rank. There is definitely room for improvement as far as employment opportunities go, but that applies to the legal field in general. GULC is not perfect; but of course, no place is, and there are opportunities for those who work hard, make connections, and get lucky.

GULC's employment stats are terrible. Saying that they ranked 16th out of 50 doesn't change anything.

CourCour
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby CourCour » Wed May 08, 2013 3:32 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote: GULC's employment stats are terrible. Saying that they ranked 16th out of 50 doesn't change anything.


To continue banging my head against the wall...

Terrible compared to HYS, yes. Terrible, terrible less so. Sterling, well no.

Saying the are the 16th best law school in the country to get a good law job is saying something.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed May 08, 2013 3:34 pm

CourCour wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote: GULC's employment stats are terrible. Saying that they ranked 16th out of 50 doesn't change anything.


To continue banging my head against the wall...

Terrible compared to HYS, yes. Terrible, terrible less so. Sterling, well no.

Saying the are the 16th best law school in the country to get a good law job is saying something.


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gulc GeorgeTTTown

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=gw George Washington

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wm William & Marry
Last edited by Dr. Dre on Wed May 08, 2013 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 08, 2013 3:34 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
danielr wrote:
CourCour wrote:I'll add that I don't think its an obvious/ easy choice. If you aren't sure that DC is for you and might be open to Cali, then UCB is probably better. I'm trying to provide a counterbalance to the TLS groupthink that GULC is never a good choice.


Be prepared for vitriol and unfocused criticism, then. All I ever encounter by way of GULC criticism is some variation of the claim that their employment stats are terrible. Yet, by ATL standards--according to their ranking methodology, that is, which many of the "GULC haters" on this website think are best and indeed preferable to USNEWS--Georgetown is ranked 16/50, which is only two spots different from its USNEWS rank. There is definitely room for improvement as far as employment opportunities go, but that applies to the legal field in general. GULC is not perfect; but of course, no place is, and there are opportunities for those who work hard, make connections, and get lucky.

GULC's employment stats are terrible. Saying that they ranked 16th out of 50 doesn't change anything.


Hyperbole much?

Georgetown's employment statistics are not "horrible," they are well within the top 16 or so schools in the country. Although they are not near as good as the test of the T14 and are closer to the UT/Vandy/USC/UCLA/Michigan subgroup. Georgetown gets made fun of because their employment stats are not as good as the T12, plus they are stoopid expensive and stoopid stingy, plus their whole merit aid debacle.

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hephaestus
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby hephaestus » Wed May 08, 2013 3:36 pm

CourCour wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote: GULC's employment stats are terrible. Saying that they ranked 16th out of 50 doesn't change anything.


To continue banging my head against the wall...

Terrible compared to HYS, yes. Terrible, terrible less so. Sterling, well no.

Saying the are the 16th best law school in the country to get a good law job is saying something.

Terrible in that it's not worth 250k of non dischargable debt.

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beepboopbeep
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby beepboopbeep » Wed May 08, 2013 3:40 pm

BigZuck wrote:the UT/Vandy/USC/UCLA/Michigan subgroup


BigZuck wrote:the T12


180

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed May 08, 2013 3:40 pm

GeorgeTTTown = West Virginia University http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wvu

Big Dog
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Big Dog » Wed May 08, 2013 3:59 pm

Georgetown's employment statistics are...well within the top 16 or so schools in the country. Georgetown [is] stoopid expensive and stoopid stingy,.


The very definition of horrible, IMO.

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 08, 2013 4:07 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Georgetown's employment statistics are...well within the top 16 or so schools in the country. Georgetown [is] stoopid expensive and stoopid stingy,.


The very definition of horrible, IMO.


Is Georgetown itself horrible? Maybe, I don't know, but I wasn't addressing that.

He said their job placement stats are terrible. They are not objectively terrible.

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sinfiery
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 08, 2013 4:17 pm

ImNoScar wrote:Terrible in that it's not worth 250k of non dischargable debt.




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