Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where should I go?!

Poll ended at Wed May 15, 2013 4:09 pm

Boalt
66
87%
GULC
10
13%
 
Total votes: 76

texas1990
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Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby texas1990 » Tue May 07, 2013 4:09 pm

So I'm going between Berkeley and Georgetown, and it looks like I'd have to pay sticker for both. Cost isn't a huge factor for me since my parents are thankfully funding half of my tuition. I really am interested in international law (this could change if i find another field interesting!) and probably want to end up working for a govt agency. Though I could also see myself doing big law for a while before going to public sector. I know people will say Georgetown definitely, but what about the fact that the DC pool is already saturated with Gtown and GW kids? Would berk look a bit more unique in the DC job pool? Plus berk's job stats are significantly better than gtown's...so there's that.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue May 07, 2013 4:13 pm

texas1990 wrote:I know people will say Georgetown definitely!

I'd expect the opposite, because

texas1990 wrote:berk's job stats are significantly better than gtown's

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sinfiery
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby sinfiery » Tue May 07, 2013 4:14 pm

Do you want to 100% live in DC after graduation?

longhorn90
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby longhorn90 » Tue May 07, 2013 4:18 pm

sinfiery wrote:Do you want to 100% live in DC after graduation?


I'd say 75% sure in DC, but would also be open to NYC or even abroad (if I get a govt job, I'd love to travel)

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northwood
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby northwood » Tue May 07, 2013 4:20 pm

are there any other options? both cost a lot of money. and the total cost isn't anything to shrug off, even if your parents are paying for it

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sinfiery
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby sinfiery » Tue May 07, 2013 4:25 pm

longhorn90 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Do you want to 100% live in DC after graduation?


I'd say 75% sure in DC, but would also be open to NYC or even abroad (if I get a govt job, I'd love to travel)

Berkeley is a much better school and is likely better respected internationally, but I think the one area GULC might eclipse Berkeley would be for the DC market.

So Berkeley is the better school, but if DC is what you want, I guess....GULC here....I think.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 07, 2013 4:27 pm

Parents are paying for half, so you should still do a CoA calculation for the remaning half here. Additionally, are you in state at Cal?

No matter what the above yields though Id pick Berkeley every time here.

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Tekrul
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Tekrul » Tue May 07, 2013 4:34 pm

A gov't job traveling? In what capacity?

The U.N. will gladly ship you to a satellite office as an intern if you have a particular region you are interested in. If you've demonstrated this interest in UG with a Regional Studies major, I can see you landing this type of position from either school. A demonstrated command of the region's language will also help. But these are about 9-12 month assignments at the end of which you'll be shipped off to another branch, not necessarily back to America.

Also, do you have any more specific details to give regarding your interest in international law? If you're into arbitration or litigation you should consider that GULC has a year abroad program in London, which is the internationally recognized center for this type of international law. Building connections while studying in London and maybe even spending a summer working for a firm like Skadden's or Latham's London offices, among other firms', (I'm not certain what government options exist there) will be a valuable opportunity.


I'm not usually on the GULC side of this type of decision, but it really may be the best fit for you if you REALLY know what you want to do. If your interest in international law is not very firm or if what I just said was completely alien to you, go Berkeley.

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twenty
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby twenty » Tue May 07, 2013 4:42 pm

texas1990 wrote:Cost isn't a huge factor for me since my parents are thankfully funding half of my tuition.


This will still leave you with 100k~ of debt.

I really am interested in international law


1) There is no such thing as international law.
2) Even if there was, you're not going to get it from GULC or Berkeley without a lot of preexisting work done (i.e, international undergrad, human rights work overseas, etc)

and probably want to end up working for a govt agency.


1) You're not getting BigFed from either GULC or Berkeley. Even HYS kids are struggling to get BigFed.
2) If you really want BigFed, get a federal job first, stay with it for a year and a day, then ask to work on your law degree. This is where GULC makes sense, because you could feasibly transfer to DC and do GULC's part time program. Even if you graduate with a lot of debt, you're okay because at the very least, you'll be IBR-eligible. Best case scenario, your agency lets you make the switch and you get into BigFed that way. It is almost impossible to get BigFed from the outside.

Though I could also see myself doing big law for a while before going to public sector.


Now we're talking -- this is what most people do. Thus, go to Berkeley.

Also, good luck getting a job as a traveling OGC attorney.

longhorn90
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby longhorn90 » Tue May 07, 2013 4:49 pm

Tekrul wrote:A gov't job traveling? In what capacity?

Also, do you have any more specific details to give regarding your interest in international law?

I'm not usually on the GULC side of this type of decision, but it really may be the best fit for you if you REALLY know what you want to do. If your interest in international law is not very firm or if what I just said was completely alien to you, go Berkeley.


UN is a huge interest, as is Foreign Service/State Dept work; I'm not very interested in litigation; as far as interest in intl law: I find human rights issues and legal framework development in developing countries interesting. I was a polisci and cultural anthropology major, with a little focus in the Middle East and I speak 3 languages and want to continue learning Arabic. Hope that helps?

Also: I've had internships at the state dept and human rights NGOs. And ive studied and worked in London for a total of 9 months.

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Tue May 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Because you probably won't fulfill your career goals from either I would go to the school which gives you the best chance of paying down your debt. That seems to be Berkeley.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby worldtraveler » Tue May 07, 2013 5:30 pm

longhorn90 wrote:
Tekrul wrote:A gov't job traveling? In what capacity?

Also, do you have any more specific details to give regarding your interest in international law?

I'm not usually on the GULC side of this type of decision, but it really may be the best fit for you if you REALLY know what you want to do. If your interest in international law is not very firm or if what I just said was completely alien to you, go Berkeley.


UN is a huge interest, as is Foreign Service/State Dept work; I'm not very interested in litigation; as far as interest in intl law: I find human rights issues and legal framework development in developing countries interesting. I was a polisci and cultural anthropology major, with a little focus in the Middle East and I speak 3 languages and want to continue learning Arabic. Hope that helps?

Also: I've had internships at the state dept and human rights NGOs. And ive studied and worked in London for a total of 9 months.


State Department straight out of law school, maybe even ever, will not happen unless you go to Yale. Right now they are only hiring yale grads and maybe 1-2 just extraordinary applicants. UN as an American citizen is also really difficult to get; internships are easy, it's a paying job that's hard.

Foreign service you don't need a law degree.

Do you really have what it takes to live in a developing country and do human rights work? It's not all that glamorous.

I would HIGHLY suggest that if this is really what you want, take 2-3 years and get work experience first. This is the field I work in and I do not know a single person who has been successful in getting a human rights/int'l/big gov job if they are K-JD. Your resumes just do not compare and neither does maturity.

If DOJ is what you want, Berkeley has had DOJ placements in the past few years, but these are incredibly competitive and do not count on it.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby PRgradBYU » Tue May 07, 2013 5:31 pm

texas1990 wrote:So I'm going between Berkeley and Georgetown, and it looks like I'd have to pay sticker for both. Cost isn't a huge factor for me since my parents are thankfully funding half of my tuition. I really am interested in international law (this could change if i find another field interesting!) and probably want to end up working for a govt agency. Though I could also see myself doing big law for a while before going to public sector. I know people will say Georgetown definitely, but what about the fact that the DC pool is already saturated with Gtown and GW kids? Would berk look a bit more unique in the DC job pool? Plus berk's job stats are significantly better than gtown's...so there's that.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!


If your parents are really paying for half of your tuition, I'd go with Boalt here. A Berkeley education for half price normally isn't a terrible deal--just know that neither school is conducive to your lofty BigFed goal.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue May 07, 2013 5:36 pm

retake, get more $, profit

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ph14
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby ph14 » Tue May 07, 2013 5:37 pm

Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.

rad lulz
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby rad lulz » Tue May 07, 2013 5:51 pm

worldtraveler wrote:
longhorn90 wrote:
Tekrul wrote:A gov't job traveling? In what capacity?

Also, do you have any more specific details to give regarding your interest in international law?

I'm not usually on the GULC side of this type of decision, but it really may be the best fit for you if you REALLY know what you want to do. If your interest in international law is not very firm or if what I just said was completely alien to you, go Berkeley.


UN is a huge interest, as is Foreign Service/State Dept work; I'm not very interested in litigation; as far as interest in intl law: I find human rights issues and legal framework development in developing countries interesting. I was a polisci and cultural anthropology major, with a little focus in the Middle East and I speak 3 languages and want to continue learning Arabic. Hope that helps?

Also: I've had internships at the state dept and human rights NGOs. And ive studied and worked in London for a total of 9 months.


State Department straight out of law school, maybe even ever, will not happen unless you go to Yale. Right now they are only hiring yale grads and maybe 1-2 just extraordinary applicants. UN as an American citizen is also really difficult to get; internships are easy, it's a paying job that's hard.

Foreign service you don't need a law degree.

Do you really have what it takes to live in a developing country and do human rights work? It's not all that glamorous.

I would HIGHLY suggest that if this is really what you want, take 2-3 years and get work experience first. This is the field I work in and I do not know a single person who has been successful in getting a human rights/int'l/big gov job if they are K-JD. Your resumes just do not compare and neither does maturity.

If DOJ is what you want, Berkeley has had DOJ placements in the past few years, but these are incredibly competitive and do not count on it.

In light of all this OP, I'd sit down and think about what you actually want to do before you go about signing up for lawl skool

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hephaestus
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby hephaestus » Tue May 07, 2013 5:54 pm

What are your secondary goals in case the international pipe dream doesn't work out? If you're not interested in litigation/corporate work you shouldn't go to either of these schools at these prices.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 07, 2013 5:56 pm

ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.

BigZuck
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby BigZuck » Tue May 07, 2013 6:01 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.


Honest question: what are the signs that point to Berkeley having better national placement power?

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue May 07, 2013 6:07 pm

jbagelboy exaggerates Berkeley's reputation

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Tekrul
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby Tekrul » Tue May 07, 2013 7:14 pm

Worldtraveler's post above me had some dead accurate information you'll want to look at.

Anecdotal so take it how you may:
My friend is finishing up 1L at Harvard, he considers himself abundantly fortunate to have secured a summer gig at the DOJ and attributes that placement due to his extensive and impressive work experience almost ancillary to his grades, which were top notch as well. If Harvard kids are breathing sighs of relief, I can only imagine how competitive it is at other schools that aren't Y/S.

However, you do have a theme to your resume already, which is probably the most important thing you can have as a 0L/1L. Your internships show a vested interest in the type of law you want to pursue and presents you as a more fully informed applicant. That is a non-zero consideration that can help you land a 1L gig and potentially lead into a 2L gig -> offer as well.

Taking classes at law school that continue developing your theme of interest will strengthen your chances at this trajectory, but note that it can weaken your chances at biglaw. This is paraphrased from hiring managers I am friendly with - there are certain types of classes that are seen as red flags to hiring staff. they indicate that a student has no interest in remaining with the company long and is looking for the nearest road out to continue on his real goals. investing money into training a 1st year associate whose time they likely cannot bill to the client and who is likely to leave before working for a few years as a useful employee is not what they are looking for. taking "law and" classes and PI minded classes will raise these flags - perhaps this is only the culture at their firms in NYC, but I'm inclined to think it's biglaw in general.

Btw, 3 languages? and learning Arabic will be your 4th? I have rarely met other individuals who are as into languages as I am. What is your level of expertise with these languages? If you are at least conversationally fluent in them, you can probably think about CIA or NSA work (EDIT: perhaps not so much NSA). I expect you'll find that human rights issues and legal framework development in developing countries will not be uncommon in their employ. They'll get you your GS14 and probably offer you bonuses for the language. GULC makes sense here as the positions will have mandatory relocation to D.C.

You really do have to think about the chances of 'striking out' though. Berkeley is the safer option here, imo. But if you want to swing hard and do the D.C. stuff, I wouldn't want to steer someone who has a good, clear idea of what he/she wants to do in the future away from GULC when it's appropriate.

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ph14
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby ph14 » Tue May 07, 2013 7:36 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.


The differences are marginal enough that he should pick based on where he wants to work and live. It doesn't make sense to go to Berkeley if he wants to work in D.C. or even in New York, assuming equal costs.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue May 07, 2013 7:40 pm

texas1990 wrote:. I know people will say Georgetown definitely

You must be new here.

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worldtraveler
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby worldtraveler » Tue May 07, 2013 7:42 pm

ph14 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
ph14 wrote:Which coast do you want to end up on? Go to the school closer to where you want to end up.


I do not think this is necessarily good advice... all signs point to Berkeley having more national placement power and actual self selective power than Georgetown.


The differences are marginal enough that he should pick based on where he wants to work and live. It doesn't make sense to go to Berkeley if he wants to work in D.C. or even in New York, assuming equal costs.


LOL no.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Berkeley v. Georgetown (sticker for both)

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:05 pm

longhorn90 wrote: I speak 3 languages and want to continue learning Arabic. Hope that helps?


Stopped reading right here. If you're even halfway fluent in Arabic, forget law, go into translation. HUGE demand for Arabic translators right now.




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