Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

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Columbia vs Penn vs NYU

Penn COA - $148,948
41
41%
NYU COA - 153,102
15
15%
Columbia COA - 161,986
45
45%
 
Total votes: 101

whisperinthewind
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Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby whisperinthewind » Mon May 06, 2013 3:49 pm

Hey TLS,

I am hoping for opinions on a seriously tough decision. I will be choosing between Columbia, NYU and Penn at similar COAs with the aim of landing BigLaw in either California (have ties), or New York City. I absolutely love the atmosphere at Penn, and am excited about the possibility of applying for the accelerated jd/mba (Wharton) during 1L, but would I be crazy to choose it over one of the NYC schools at nearly equal cost?

Thanks in advance for the help.
Last edited by whisperinthewind on Mon May 06, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby sinfiery » Mon May 06, 2013 3:51 pm

If you want the MBA/JD, I'd go Penn.

If you want CA/NYC biglaw, I would go with CLS/NYU based on which school you like better. I would not be comfortable going to Penn if Pennsylvania biglaw was not something you were okay with doing.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Micdiddy » Mon May 06, 2013 3:54 pm

Knowing you want big law, Penn seems pretty reasonable here if you also like it better w/r/t jd/MBA possibilities, quality if living, etc.
Not sure anyone can fault you much for choosing the school with the best big law placement when you want big law.

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boblawlob
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby boblawlob » Mon May 06, 2013 3:55 pm

Any decision you make will be fine.

Although, I do like UPenn's smaller class size compared to NYU/Columbia. Something to keep in mind.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 4:42 pm

Voted CLS. At these price differences and with your biglaw goals in CA or NYC its a winner to me.

All three options are defensible and good at those prices. I don't know if Penn does as well in CA as NYU/CLS -- that might be a consideration. You should probably make your choice more on where you want to live for the next 3 years (NYC/Philly) and which atmosphere you prefer at this point since the $ is so close.

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Sheffield
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Sheffield » Mon May 06, 2013 5:31 pm

I realize I am leaving myself open to a little blowback on this …. by the time you graduate ATL could be the gold standard of school rankings. Meaning that if you believe BL cares about such things (they do), you might check this out… Above the Law

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 5:34 pm

Sheffield wrote:I realize I am leaving myself open to a little blowback on this …. by the time you graduate ATL could be the gold standard of school rankings. Meaning that if you believe BL cares about such things (they do), you might check this out… Above the Law


on what quantifiable basis are you making this statement other than pure conjecture. If you recall, the last vault ranking had michigan at #2. Huge bump that's had on their employment huh.

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hephaestus
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby hephaestus » Mon May 06, 2013 5:39 pm

Sheffield wrote:I realize I am leaving myself open to a little blowback on this …. by the time you graduate ATL could be the gold standard of school rankings. Meaning that if you believe BL cares about such things (they do), you might check this out… Above the Law

This is objectively ridiculous. Firms don't care if a school is 5 or 7 or whatever else from year to year. Firms know the good schools and act accordingly.

kaiser
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby kaiser » Mon May 06, 2013 5:41 pm

If you are pretty certain that JD/MBA is what you want, Penn would be a great choice. Certainly isn't much, if at all behind Columbia and NYU as far as placement goes. And by many metrics, Penn is even higher. Don't fall victim to the CCN vs. whatever comes below it mentality. Columbia and NYU most certainly are not on some level above Penn. They are very much peer schools, and there is no bad choice. And if the joint MBA program is something you are serious about, I'd say Penn is a great choice.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 5:49 pm

kaiser wrote:If you are pretty certain that JD/MBA is what you want, Penn would be a great choice. Certainly isn't much, if at all behind Columbia and NYU as far as placement goes. And by many metrics, Penn is even higher. Don't fall victim to the CCN vs. whatever comes below it mentality. Columbia and NYU most certainly are not on some level above Penn. They are very much peer schools, and there is no bad choice. And if the joint MBA program is something you are serious about, I'd say Penn is a great choice.


this is true for biglaw in general, but in the NYC market specifically, firms will draw a little deeper into CLS. admittedly this is a small margin and probably isn't significant enough for this decision.

kaiser
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby kaiser » Mon May 06, 2013 5:54 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
kaiser wrote:If you are pretty certain that JD/MBA is what you want, Penn would be a great choice. Certainly isn't much, if at all behind Columbia and NYU as far as placement goes. And by many metrics, Penn is even higher. Don't fall victim to the CCN vs. whatever comes below it mentality. Columbia and NYU most certainly are not on some level above Penn. They are very much peer schools, and there is no bad choice. And if the joint MBA program is something you are serious about, I'd say Penn is a great choice.


this is true for biglaw in general, but in the NYC market specifically, firms will draw a little deeper into CLS. admittedly this is a small margin and probably isn't significant enough for this decision.


No doubt that NYC big firms will dig a bit deeper into CLS, and perhaps NYU just because of the local connection. But the difference would be negligible. Penn places tons of kids into NYC firms, and we have to offset this against whatever value and weight he places on having a Wharton MBA, which is a pretty nice credential, especially if he plans to eventually do something outside of law (though even within law, say as in-house counsel, an MBA from a top B school could be a huge edge).

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 6:00 pm

kaiser wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
kaiser wrote:If you are pretty certain that JD/MBA is what you want, Penn would be a great choice. Certainly isn't much, if at all behind Columbia and NYU as far as placement goes. And by many metrics, Penn is even higher. Don't fall victim to the CCN vs. whatever comes below it mentality. Columbia and NYU most certainly are not on some level above Penn. They are very much peer schools, and there is no bad choice. And if the joint MBA program is something you are serious about, I'd say Penn is a great choice.


this is true for biglaw in general, but in the NYC market specifically, firms will draw a little deeper into CLS. admittedly this is a small margin and probably isn't significant enough for this decision.


No doubt that NYC big firms will dig a bit deeper into CLS, and perhaps NYU just because of the local connection. But the difference would be negligible. Penn places tons of kids into NYC firms, and we have to offset this against whatever value and weight he places on having a Wharton MBA, which is a pretty nice credential, especially if he plans to eventually do something outside of law (though even within law, say as in-house counsel, an MBA from a top B school could be a huge edge).


thats why i said its not significant.

if OP gets into wharton, Penn is a clear choice. I totally agree with you about the MBA draw for in-house work after biglaw.

similarly, applying dual columbia jd/princeton mpa was a clear draw for me.

he just has to get into the B-school though, which requires a somewhat different set of qualifications from penn law. i wouldn't call it a set thing just yet.

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sinfiery
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby sinfiery » Mon May 06, 2013 6:10 pm

Do you find out if you got into Wharton before you have to accept an offer?

whisperinthewind
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby whisperinthewind » Mon May 06, 2013 6:25 pm

Thanks for the responses guys/gals! It's great to hear that picking Penn wouldn't be completely nuts.

As to the Wharton MBA, I would apply during 1L (to the 3-year accelerated program) and not hear back until next spring. It is definitely not a sure thing, but I have a couple years of pretty solid WE, and would hope that Penn JDs get some (slight?) boost.

However, if Wharton didn't work out, would I be losing future opportunities, as I do want to possibly lateral in-house at some point in my career, by forgoing "dat lay prestige" at a Columbia or NYU?

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sinfiery
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby sinfiery » Mon May 06, 2013 6:31 pm

Nope, the differences are marginal. Enjoy Penn.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Micdiddy » Mon May 06, 2013 6:35 pm

sinfiery wrote:Nope, the differences are marginal. Enjoy Penn.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby NoodleyOne » Mon May 06, 2013 6:43 pm

Honestly, there isn't a bad option here. Columbia is probably the safest of the three (based on what I hear about their OCI), but LST shows that Penn has been cleaning up. You seem to prefer Penn, so it's certainly not a bad decision.

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boblawlob
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby boblawlob » Mon May 06, 2013 6:50 pm

whisperinthewind wrote:However, if Wharton didn't work out, would I be losing future opportunities, as I do want to possibly lateral in-house at some point in my career, by forgoing "dat lay prestige" at a Columbia or NYU?


I'm curious, which has more lay prestige? UPenn Law or NYU Law?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 6:58 pm

boblawlob wrote:
whisperinthewind wrote:However, if Wharton didn't work out, would I be losing future opportunities, as I do want to possibly lateral in-house at some point in my career, by forgoing "dat lay prestige" at a Columbia or NYU?


I'm curious, which has more lay prestige? UPenn Law or NYU Law?


NYU. its been a dominant law school for years.

Penn has more prestige outside of law for undergrads, business, or medicine

El Principe
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby El Principe » Mon May 06, 2013 7:02 pm

Tough... I like both NYU and Columbia over PENN, but that would be because of New York City and the higher rank prestige, not because of a difference in post-grad options.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon May 06, 2013 7:03 pm

Columbia and NYU both have top 10 business schools. If OP wants to do NYC biglaw, why not get the NYC advantage while still going to a top flight MBA program?

Penn is obviously defensible here, especially if OP has an interest in going to the business side of things early in his/her career, but I feel like being in NYC would be better for OP's goals.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby NoodleyOne » Mon May 06, 2013 7:05 pm

El Principe wrote:Tough... I like both NYU and Columbia over PENN, but that would be because of New York City and the higher rank prestige, not because of a difference in post-grad options.

Screw rank and prestige... location is a decent point, though.

Doorkeeper wrote:Columbia and NYU both have top 10 business schools. If OP wants to do NYC biglaw, why not get the NYC advantage while still going to a top flight MBA program?

Penn is obviously defensible here, especially if OP has an interest in going to the business side of things early in his/her career, but I feel like being in NYC would be better for OP's goals.

Penn does pretty much feed exclusively into NYC, doesn't it? I don't see how any gives a really huge advantage at all. I think NYU and Columbia feed better into the most prestigious firms, but after that it's pretty much a wash.

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sinfiery
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby sinfiery » Mon May 06, 2013 7:16 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
Penn does pretty much feed exclusively into NYC, doesn't it? I don't see how any gives a really huge advantage at all. I think NYU and Columbia feed better into the most prestigious firms, but after that it's pretty much a wash.

It feeds well enough, but there is still a very big difference between NYU/CLS and UPenn (20%ish) in how many of their students go to NYC.


You can argue that self-selection is why they choose Pennsylvania biglaw over NYC biglaw and could have gotten NYC biglaw. I find that harder to believe at a school like Penn than UVA where 40% of their class is in-state but at the same time, Pennsylvania has a much lower COL than NYC which could definitely attract students there over NYC.


As for the MBA, is there an HYS-MVP distinction between Wharton and Stern? Wharton getting way more lay prestige is the only reason I ask.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby Tom Joad » Mon May 06, 2013 7:21 pm

If you just want to be a simple lawyer, any are fine, NYU is probably the best value for the money. If you are serious about the MBA, do Penn.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. NYU vs. Penn

Postby jbagelboy » Mon May 06, 2013 7:25 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Columbia and NYU both have top 10 business schools. If OP wants to do NYC biglaw, why not get the NYC advantage while still going to a top flight MBA program?

Penn is obviously defensible here, especially if OP has an interest in going to the business side of things early in his/her career, but I feel like being in NYC would be better for OP's goals.


With this perspective, it might have been advisable for OP to apply to B-school and law school at the same time.. then if he'd gotten into Stern + NYU or Wharton + Penn or Columbiax2 it would have made the decision easier haha




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