ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

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Law911
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ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 8:46 am

I'm totally at a loss and I really need some input to help me make my decision. I currently go to Michigan State and I am a resident of Michigan. I received the following offers and I am really hesitant to accept a large amount of debt. At the same time I don't want to go to a subpar law school and not be able to find a job as a lawyer when I get out. If you guys could help me out I would appreciate it so much. Thanks!

$24,000 maximum tuition guarantee for all 3 years from University of Arizona

$90,000 scholarship from University of Miami with a 50% GPA stipulation

$27,500 scholarship for 1L and $17,500 for 2L and 3L from Michigan State University with a chance to increase to a full tuition scholarship if I finish with a 3.7

$20,000 for 1L and $15,000 for 2L at Arizona State University

Full Scholarship to Wayne State University and I would live at home so COA would be virtually non-existant.

BigZuck
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 9:06 am

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

Please go back and do all that. Literally nothing can be said based on what you have given us so far, the scholarship amounts are meaningless to people if they don't know what it all will actually cost.

K Rock
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby K Rock » Wed May 01, 2013 9:26 am

Based on your current options: Wayne State easily.

What are your GPA and LSAT?

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 9:35 am

Thanks for showing me that. This is my first time posting in this part of the forums.I will be financing all of my expenses through loans. I have lived in Michigan my entire life. I want to eventually be able to leave. As for ties, I have very little ties in Florida. My uncle lives 15 minutes from ASU's campus, but I do not believe that I would be able to live with him. It's still up in the air. However, he has a great deal of ties in the area with financial services companies and law offices. I'm a 3.4/162 applicant and I have taken the LSAT twice. As for career goals I am pretty up in the air right now. Eventually I think that I may want to be a judge but the path to that goal can take many different forms. Please let me know if there is any other information you think I should include. Thanks!

University of Arizona:
COA: $64,860 per year for out of state with a chance to gain residency at 2L
$24,000 maximum tuition guarantee for all 3 years

University of Miami:
COA: $68,900 per year
$90,000 scholarship with a 50% GPA stipulation

Michigan State University:
COA:$44,118 per year
$27,500 scholarship for 1L and $17,500 for 2L and 3L with a chance to increase to a full tuition scholarship if I finish with a 3.7

Arizona State:
COA: $61,333 for out of a state with a chance to become a resident in 2L
$20,000 for 1L and $15,000 for 2L at Arizona State University

Wayne State University:
Full Scholarship and I would live at home so COA would be virtually non-existant.

BigZuck
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 9:42 am

I'm dense and cannot interpret all this. What will each school cost you for all three years? Please factor in tuition increases, cost of living, and interest. Google the Georgetown law calculator and plug that all in. All I (and everyone really) want to see is the final cost of attendance for each school.

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 9:57 am

Sorry guys. Just getting the hang of this...

I will graduate with $44,000 in undergraduate debt.

Total Indebtedness at repayment for all 3 years not including the above undergraduate debt:

University of Arizona: $185,841

University of Miami: $142,917

Michigan State University: $84,193

Arizona State University: $180,776
If I gain residency after 1L: $141,680
If I live with my uncle and gain residency after 1L: $97,588

Wayne State: Essentially $0

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Nelson
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Nelson » Wed May 01, 2013 10:01 am

Retake or don't go.

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patrickd139
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby patrickd139 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:22 am

Nelson wrote:Retake or don't go.

100% this. Your undergraduate debt and (mostly) the piss-poor employment prospects from these options are easily reason enough to not take any of them.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Wed May 01, 2013 10:42 am

I agree with everyone else about retaking. Normally I'd say Wayne for free isn't a terrible option for someone with strong Michigan ties, but that undergrad debt is a killer.

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:55 am

Ghost93 wrote:I agree with everyone else about retaking. Normally I'd say Wayne for free isn't a terrible option for someone with strong Michigan ties, but that undergrad debt is a killer.


Wouldn't the interest still be deferred because I'd still be in school. So I'd go into law school owing $44,000 and I'd come out of law school owing $44,000 (if I went to Wayne). Am I missing something or are you guys just talking about the opportunity cost of not working for 3 years?

I appreciate the honesty guys!

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Wed May 01, 2013 11:09 am

Law911 wrote:Wouldn't the interest still be deferred because I'd still be in school. So I'd go into law school owing $44,000 and I'd come out of law school owing $44,000 (if I went to Wayne). Am I missing something or are you guys just talking about the opportunity cost of not working for 3 years?

We are mostly talking about the poor employment prospects out of these schools:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=msu
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wayne
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=miami
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=asu

Docreviewsux
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Docreviewsux » Wed May 01, 2013 11:17 am

Law911 wrote:I'm totally at a loss and I really need some input to help me make my decision. I currently go to Michigan State and I am a resident of Michigan. I received the following offers and I am really hesitant to accept a large amount of debt. At the same time I don't want to go to a subpar law school and not be able to find a job as a lawyer when I get out. If you guys could help me out I would appreciate it so much. Thanks!

$24,000 maximum tuition guarantee for all 3 years from University of Arizona

$90,000 scholarship from University of Miami with a 50% GPA stipulation

$27,500 scholarship for 1L and $17,500 for 2L and 3L from Michigan State University with a chance to increase to a full tuition scholarship if I finish with a 3.7

$20,000 for 1L and $15,000 for 2L at Arizona State University

Full Scholarship to Wayne State University and I would live at home so COA would be virtually non-existant.


All garbage.

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 12:52 pm

I really do understand the awful employment prospect, but having a law degree isn't even worth it if that degree is free. I was definitely expecting people to say Wayne, but I didn't think they would say don't go at all. It's like someone stopping you on the street and handing you a law degree. The part I just don't understand is that having a law degree can in no way hurt me. I will always be able to have the same job prospects applying with a law degree or without... It just adds another level of options that I would be able to explore.

Again, thanks for the input. I look forward to more.

BigZuck
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 1:41 pm

Law911 wrote:I really do understand the awful employment prospect, but having a law degree isn't even worth it if that degree is free. I was definitely expecting people to say Wayne, but I didn't think they would say don't go at all. It's like someone stopping you on the street and handing you a law degree. The part I just don't understand is that having a law degree can in no way hurt me. I will always be able to have the same job prospects applying with a law degree or without... It just adds another level of options that I would be able to explore.

Again, thanks for the input. I look forward to more.


It's three years you're not working in another field, plus sometimes fancy law degrees can make you "overqualified" for other employment and not get hired. If you wanted, say, an administrative assistant position paying 30K whoever would be hiring you would potentially think you will bolt at the first 100K+ lawyer job that falls into your lap (most people don't know anything about legal hiring and assume law school is the path to riches and all lawyers swim in their money in a Scrooge McDuckian fashion) or they think you will find a way to sue them.

Having a law degree (like any advanced degree) can potentially be a bad thing if you're searching for a job outside that field.

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romothesavior
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 01, 2013 2:05 pm

1. Retake and reapply
2. Wayne
3. Don't go. All other options are terrible

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patrickd139
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby patrickd139 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:24 pm

romothesavior wrote:1. Retake and reapply
2. Wayne
3. Don't go. All other options are terrible

I'll co-sign options 1 and 3 only.

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romothesavior
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 01, 2013 2:35 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:1. Retake and reapply
2. Wayne
3. Don't go. All other options are terrible

I'll co-sign options 1 and 3 only.

Eh, it's free. I don't really see (2) as a bad option. I would still retake to go to a better school if I were in OP's position, but let's not act like it's the worst decision for a Michigan native to go to Wayne State for zero in COA.

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patrickd139
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby patrickd139 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:43 pm

romothesavior wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:1. Retake and reapply
2. Wayne
3. Don't go. All other options are terrible

I'll co-sign options 1 and 3 only.

Eh, it's free. I don't really see (2) as a bad option. I would still retake to go to a better school if I were in OP's position, but let's not act like it's the worst decision for a Michigan native to go to Wayne State for zero in COA.

Fair enough. Full disclosure: Ideologically, I'm one of those elitist pricks who thinks that if you can't go to an objectively good school at reasonable cost, find something else productive to do with your life.

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jbagelboy
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 01, 2013 2:44 pm

I would have said Wayne or Michigan state are both doable (MSU w/ the full tuition 3.7 you'd have to drop out otherwise), but you gave me pause with "I would like to eventually leave Michigan". You will not leave Michigan for a legal job, at least not for many years, with those options. If you resign yourself to staying in Michigan, I think you could swing it with these.

PRgradBYU
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby PRgradBYU » Wed May 01, 2013 4:01 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:1. Retake and reapply
2. Wayne
3. Don't go. All other options are terrible

I'll co-sign options 1 and 3 only.

Eh, it's free. I don't really see (2) as a bad option. I would still retake to go to a better school if I were in OP's position, but let's not act like it's the worst decision for a Michigan native to go to Wayne State for zero in COA.

Fair enough. Full disclosure: Ideologically, I'm one of those elitist pricks who thinks that if you can't go to an objectively good school at reasonable cost, find something else productive to do with your life.


Amen to that. Three years attending a crap law school for free is still three years of your life. Think about the opportunity cost there.

My advice is RETAKE or don't go, OP.

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unclepete
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby unclepete » Wed May 01, 2013 6:38 pm

How are you getting those ASU numbers? You do realize rent is ilke $350/mo right?

If you become a resident after 1L, you're looking at ~70k

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 6:56 pm

unclepete wrote:How are you getting those ASU numbers? You do realize rent is ilke $350/mo right?

If you become a resident after 1L, you're looking at ~70k


I used that Georgetown law calculator. Can you break down how it would $70,000 including cost of living? I get to $59,000 when I only include the cost of tuition. I can't imagine spending only $11,000 on myself over the course of 3 years

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unclepete
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby unclepete » Wed May 01, 2013 7:02 pm

Law911 wrote:
unclepete wrote:How are you getting those ASU numbers? You do realize rent is ilke $350/mo right?

If you become a resident after 1L, you're looking at ~70k


I used that Georgetown law calculator. Can you break down how it would $70,000 including cost of living? I get to $59,000 when I only include the cost of tuition. I can't imagine spending only $11,000 on myself over the course of 3 years


I guess I`m assuming that you can gain residency after 1L, which puts your total tuition bill at 97k. In this case, you'd be paying 47k in tuition with your scholarship taken into account.

DportIA
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby DportIA » Wed May 01, 2013 7:06 pm

Wayne State would be a great option IF (1) you are willing to stay in Michigan, and (2) you have a personality conducive to hustling, selling yourself, and meeting alumni. Wayne won't place you outside of Michigan, but it probably has a very strong alumni base in Western Michigan and Detroit.

The name of the game is getting out there and making it happen for yourself when the school you attend won't open the doors wide open automatically. That requires decent/good/great grades and personability, wherever you decide to attend.

Law911
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Re: ASU vs. Miami vs. Michigan State vs. Wayne

Postby Law911 » Wed May 01, 2013 7:27 pm

unclepete wrote:
Law911 wrote:
unclepete wrote:How are you getting those ASU numbers? You do realize rent is ilke $350/mo right?

If you become a resident after 1L, you're looking at ~70k


I used that Georgetown law calculator. Can you break down how it would $70,000 including cost of living? I get to $59,000 when I only include the cost of tuition. I can't imagine spending only $11,000 on myself over the course of 3 years


I guess I`m assuming that you can gain residency after 1L, which puts your total tuition bill at 97k. In this case, you'd be paying 47k in tuition with your scholarship taken into account.



The way I calculated it was:

1L: $41,000-$20,000=$21,000
2L (with residency): $26,000-$15,000=$11,000
3L (with residency): $26,000

$21,000+$11,000+$26,000=$58,000 in tuition

Please let me know if I made an error.




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