Top School or graduate debt free?

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cinephile
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby cinephile » Wed May 01, 2013 2:13 am

sinfiery wrote:This really makes me wonder what the heck goes on in Ithaca


Suicide.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Wed May 01, 2013 2:33 am

Lawquacious wrote:Fuck GTTTTown. That school is a shitty degree mill and shouldn't even be in the picture, especially with no scholly. Can't wait till that school drops to 15 someday.

Go to Cornell. 45k PER YEAR? You want to end up in NY? Nothing at Columbia? (Mentions Georgetown again just to piss on it) Go to fucking Cornell.


It was George Washington though, not even GULC.

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Clearly
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Clearly » Wed May 01, 2013 2:38 am

I am baffled by this thread. OP You need to get on the phone with Cornell YESTERDAY and ask for your offer back if you missed this. Turning down 45k/y at Cornell to attend GW would be among the craziest decisions I've ever seen on TLS, ever. It's so far from a comparison. Cornell at 45k/y trumps all of your other options by a wide margin. Ithaca is not that bad.

Edit: Perceivable rudeness.
Last edited by Clearly on Wed May 01, 2013 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby jbagelboy » Wed May 01, 2013 5:15 am

Lol. The moment OP admitted he had a Cornell scholly he sunk this entire thread. No level headed TLS er would give any advice to detract from $45k/yr at Cornell here, even if your entire extended family died there in a freak accident and haunted the grounds of the law school.

The only feasible reason I could see to leave Cornell would be to broaden your alumni base since you already have big red connections. In that case I would go with GW since you already have the Ivy preftige networks via UG (which actually dont go away at these schools) so the columbia name will not be quite as worth the debt.

While GW for free and Columbia sticker are both defensible IMO in a vacuum, in the context of your other offer, they are retarded.

BigZuck
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 9:39 am

Hate to pile on here but yes, this was a horrible approach. If he hated Ithaca so much why even apply? I would guess for negotiation leverage. But then he could have turned around and used that offer at a school like NU or Duke. Duke would have been a great option- good DC and NY placement and they have been amenable to negotiation this cycle (I got them to match 90K at Cornell when they started at 67.5K. If he was sincere I bet they would have matched the Cornell offer he had).

Not sure what can be done now. Maybe email Cornell and tell them he had to put off school for a year and that he will definitely be reapplying next year? Maybe that will improve his chances of getting the same scholarship next year and he can either go or use it at another T14 like Duke? I know TLS typically says schools don't care if you reapply and you'll get the same offer again but I wonder if that applies when you spurn a close to full ride?

I think retake/reapply is preferable to his remaining options. Unless he can get that Cornell offer back...

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Lavitz
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 01, 2013 10:27 am

sinfiery wrote:This really makes me wonder what the heck goes on in Ithaca

NYFGJoe wrote:I like Ithaca a lot. However, I examined both schools and came to the conclusion that being in DC provides a wider range of opportunities to do externships/clinics than being in Ithaca. And it's not like 1413 vs 21 in the rankings is a huge difference.

It's not even that OP hates Ithaca. OP just seems to be under the impression that externships and clinics in DC somehow matter for getting a job in NYC.

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cwid1391
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby cwid1391 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:41 am

romothesavior wrote:In the event OP you already withdrew from Cornell and can only decide between GW and Columbia I would go Columbia. But if you still have an opportunity to go to Cornell, then as everyone else has stated, you should do that.
Assuming OP withdrew from Cornell, he should:

1. Get on the horn and beg Cornell to re-open his offer. Go there if they do
2. Take a year off (maybe retake?) and try to do a lower T14 with a scholly

(huge drop off)

3. GW with no debt
4. Columbia at sticker


I think GW is the definitely the bottom option here. Even Columbia with debt would be better. He says he may not want BigLaw now, but the amount of doors that are closed to you by turning down Cornell/Columbia are ridiculous. It's crazy not to take Cornell over GW, but going to GW over Columbia would be crazy too.

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romothesavior
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby romothesavior » Wed May 01, 2013 11:01 am

cwid1391 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:In the event OP you already withdrew from Cornell and can only decide between GW and Columbia I would go Columbia. But if you still have an opportunity to go to Cornell, then as everyone else has stated, you should do that.
Assuming OP withdrew from Cornell, he should:

1. Get on the horn and beg Cornell to re-open his offer. Go there if they do
2. Take a year off (maybe retake?) and try to do a lower T14 with a scholly

(huge drop off)

3. GW with no debt
4. Columbia at sticker


I think GW is the definitely the bottom option here. Even Columbia with debt would be better. He says he may not want BigLaw now, but the amount of doors that are closed to you by turning down Cornell/Columbia are ridiculous. It's crazy not to take Cornell over GW, but going to GW over Columbia would be crazy too.

I don't think any law school is worth over a quarter of a million dollars in non-dischargable debt. It's not the risk of not getting a job that would worry me, it's the risk of 1) getting Lathamed, or 2) hating the practice of law (at least in a big firm capacity). Debt like that could follow you around for decades. GW is a solid enough school that I would take a full ride there over Columbia at sticker, especially since OP doesn't want biglaw.

I recognize that not everyone agrees with this and I understand the reasons for why Columbia would be taken over GW. As a 0L, I would have said the same thing. But as a 3L, I can see 1) why someone would hate practicing law, and 2) just how much debt we're talking here. It's hard to really appreciate all of this when you're a 0L. Taking little to no debt for a T20 over sticker price at a T14 is not "crazy." We're not talking about a school with 40% job placement here; GW still places about a third of students into big firms and clerkships, and your odds are probably even higher than 1/3 when you factor in people self-selecting out of firm work. I would take a 30-40% shot at a big firm with the insurance of not needing big firm money to service my debt over a quarter mil in debt that will require an extended stint in biglaw that I may very well hate.

All of that said, taking GW full ride over Cornell full ride is the height of stupidity, so I really hope OP didn't turn down Cornell.

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bk1
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby bk1 » Wed May 01, 2013 11:13 am

While I don't necessarily agree with Romo's conclusion (I think that something like GW full ride vs CLS sticker is essentially a toss up and picking one is based on the type of risk that you are willing to bear), he's spot on about the risks of CLS at sticker and the advantages of GW full ride. The reality is that picking either one over the other is not crazy as they both burden the chooser with tremendous, albeit differing kinds of risk. To think that there's some gigantic chasm between the two is ludicrous. They both suck.

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Icculus
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Icculus » Wed May 01, 2013 11:37 am

bk1 wrote:While I don't necessarily agree with Romo's conclusion (I think that something like GW full ride vs CLS sticker is essentially a toss up and picking one is based on the type of risk that you are willing to bear), he's spot on about the risks of CLS at sticker and the advantages of GW full ride. The reality is that picking either one over the other is not crazy as they both burden the chooser with tremendous, albeit differing kinds of risk. To think that there's some gigantic chasm between the two is ludicrous. They both suck.


+1 from a guy paying a quarter million for a legal education. My GPA combined with the high number of apps meant I was either paying sticker at the school I am at or close to sticker for a school that didn't offer the same opportunities. I would make the same decision even in retrospect (though had I been psychic and known apps were going to drop off like they did I probably would have sat out a year). However in OP's situation I think both GW and CLS have risks and if I were not big law or bust I may take the GW option. (200K+ in debt is a soul crushing thing to think about and I am probably one of the more positive thinkers in my school and on this message board and I managed to snag something at OCI. It is a scary high number.) Again though, Cornell at 45K/ year blows both if these options out of the water.

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nickb285
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby nickb285 » Wed May 01, 2013 11:41 am

I'm with Romo. Cornell is the right option if OP can still do it, but a $3000 monthly payment on loans is almost double my current post-tax income, and that is a terrifying thought. Of the choices listed, I would personally take GW, but Cornell is TCR.

ket310
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby ket310 » Wed May 01, 2013 11:49 am

A3+BigL A3 100+ Business Gov't SL Cle PI
CORNELL UNIVERSITY 64.2% 6.3% 57.9% 2.1% 8.4% 2.1% 5.3%
GEORGE WASHINGTON 31.1% 3.8% 27.3% 5.9% 20.5% 4.2% 12.0%

Considering A3 and BigL is harder than other ones to get, 64% vs 31% is a huge huge difference. There is reason why everyone here is telling you to go to Cornell. But in the end, it's your choice. This data is from ABA (class of 2012) and I ran excel for %.

kaiser
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby kaiser » Wed May 01, 2013 11:51 am

Cornell seems like the easy top choice here. If you couldn't imagine spending another 3 years there, I'd just say suck it up. It will be worth it when you don't have to send out those debt repayment checks.

Why would you take GW full ride over a Cornell near full ride? That wouldn't make the slightest bit of sense. If anything, the choice is Cornell vs. Columbia, and Cornell seems like the clear cut choice given the high level of scholarship $$.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed May 01, 2013 12:05 pm

OP, it's only been a few days. If Cornell wants you, I suspect it's not to late to rescind your withdrawal and beg them to give back your offer. I know of instances where this has been successful.

Image

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quiver
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby quiver » Wed May 01, 2013 12:09 pm

OP, what happened? We have people in here threatening to go blind if you picked anything other than Cornell. Think about the people.

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Rlabo
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Rlabo » Wed May 01, 2013 12:14 pm

Cornell is the objectively clear choice here. BUT since you seem like you really want GW, the ONLY way that I would attempt to justify it would be by getting them to give you an actual full ride + stipend thus bringing it somewhat up to par with your cornell offer. Even then it would still be a close call but I can definitely see the justification. That being said I doubt theyll do it but never hurts to ask.

linquest
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Attorney's opinion

Postby linquest » Wed May 01, 2013 12:57 pm

NYFGJoe wrote:How hard is it to pay off student loans?

I practice in DC where I interview for Federal Honors Programs, have also been a BigLaw client in NYC so I have a good idea of what those legal markets are like. Without a doubt, I urge you to take Cornell. Rankings aside, there is eons difference in how most employers perceive Cornell vs. GW.

I think your perception of clinics/externships is also misplaced-they're not as important as you seem to think they are. However, just because GW is in DC doesn't mean they necessarily have better opportunities. Look at their websites- Cornell has MORE types of clinics than GW. Full-time internships are more important than part-time externships. You will fare better in competition for internships from Cornell than GW.

As for Columbia at sticker, take it from someone who's re-paying $240K in student loans on a federal gov't salary. It sucks- I pay more on loans each month (even on Income Based Repayment!) than most people pay on rent. Before consolidation and IBR, my student loan payments were *$2100/month*. After a couple years of practicing law, my standard of living is basically THE SAME as it was when I was working BEFORE law school.
Last edited by linquest on Sat May 04, 2013 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bjsesq
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby bjsesq » Wed May 01, 2013 1:05 pm

Beginning to think troll thread is troll.

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sinfiery
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 01, 2013 1:39 pm

Lavitz wrote:It's not even that OP hates Ithaca. OP just seems to be under the impression that externships and clinics in DC somehow matter for getting a job in NYC.

I don't understand. Like, its illogical to me what OP has done. Sigh. People like OP make theoretical economist laughing stocks.

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Lavitz
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Lavitz » Wed May 01, 2013 1:41 pm

bjsesq wrote:Beginning to think troll thread is troll.

Could be. I mean, OP is the only person I know claiming 135K from Cornell this cycle. Everyone else on LSN is reporting either 150K or 120K--nothing in between.

BigZuck
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 1:46 pm

Lavitz wrote:
bjsesq wrote:Beginning to think troll thread is troll.

Could be. I mean, OP is the only person I know claiming 135K from Cornell this cycle. Everyone else on LSN is reporting either 150K or 120K--nothing in between.


Thought of this as well...

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bk1
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby bk1 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:58 pm

bjsesq wrote:Beginning to think troll thread is troll.

Seems unlikely to me.

timbs4339
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:48 pm

Lavitz wrote:
sinfiery wrote:This really makes me wonder what the heck goes on in Ithaca

NYFGJoe wrote:I like Ithaca a lot. However, I examined both schools and came to the conclusion that being in DC provides a wider range of opportunities to do externships/clinics than being in Ithaca. And it's not like 1413 vs 21 in the rankings is a huge difference.

It's not even that OP hates Ithaca. OP just seems to be under the impression that externships and clinics in DC somehow matter for getting a job in NYC.


This. It's crazy. OP, lots of us have been through law school. If you are turning down 45K @ Cornell to consider CLS sticker or GW 45K you (1) know nothing, Jon Snow, about how legal hiring works, (2) are certifiable, (3) are lying as to why you don't want to live in Ithaca.

timbs4339
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:54 pm

NYFGJoe wrote:How hard is it to pay off student loans?


OP > CLS = Probably gets biglaw, has to pay off 250K in loans, ends up living like a college student for 5 years while working 70 hrs a week.

OP > GW = Probably ends up working for 60K or less, has 90K of debt, ends up living like a college student for years paying down debt.

OP > Cornell = +50% chance of getting biglaw and living large with less than 70K in debt.

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Micdiddy
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Re: Top School or graduate debt free?

Postby Micdiddy » Wed May 01, 2013 2:59 pm

Op? Op? You there op? We need closure! Did you run to the law school building, camp out overnight and beg them to reconsider? What's going on?
Last edited by Micdiddy on Wed May 01, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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