Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

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Brooklyn or St. John's

Brooklyn
7
44%
St. John's
9
56%
 
Total votes: 16

gcpallen
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Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby gcpallen » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:01 pm

So I got into Brooklyn and St. John's law. I got $30,000 in scholarship from Brooklyn and $35,000 in scholarship from St. John's. If I attend Brooklyn I would have to pay for housing, if I attend St. John's I would live with my parents. So obviously I would be in less debt if I got to St. John's but I am conflicted by the choice. Brooklyn Law School has a higher rank and better job placement in bigger law firms. I also liked the surrounding area of Brooklyn compared to St. John's, but I am more worried about getting a job to pay back the debt and make a living. I am leaning towards patent or corporate law.

To maintain the scholarship at Brooklyn you have to be in the top 80% and at St. John's you have to be in the top 40%.

Please advise and thank you.

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jingosaur
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby jingosaur » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:03 pm

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206299

Neither are good options

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Bronck
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Bronck » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:05 pm

BLS doesn't really have better big firm placement.... you're not going to get it from either school.

The St John's stips are atrocious. If you do go there, you have to be willing to drop out if you don't retain the scholarship.

Assuming the COA isn't ridiculously low (and, I would argue that even if it is...) you need to retake.

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romothesavior
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:08 pm

Retake and reapply. Unfortunately both of these schools have terrible job prospects. Maaaaybe I would be okay advising SJU if you lived at home and got rid of that scholarship stipulation. You're still looking at 100kish for Brooklyn which is an objectively terrible plan.

timbs4339
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:21 pm

You're not getting biglaw out of either unless you have a hard science background. So go to St. John's, live at home, get out with 50K debt and ENJOY a 50K local government or small firm job. Or you don't do well 1L and drop out when you lose the scholly.

gcpallen
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby gcpallen » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:41 pm

Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:59 pm

gcpallen wrote:Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.


When most people say retaking is not an option, it just means they really don't like the idea of retaking. If you really cannot retake, my recommendation would be to not go to law school if these are your two best options--the significant debt you'll be taking on is not worth the employment prospects from either school.

More reading on why retaking might be a good idea: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=208084

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Lavitz
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Lavitz » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:08 pm

gcpallen wrote:Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.

You can't get a job working with computers then? And how sure are you that you'll enjoy the kind of work lawyers do?

Even if you say you just want a decent paying job to make a living, at either of these schools you have a coin flip of a chance of getting any full-time legal job at all.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=stjohns
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=brooklyn

You could be wasting a lot of money here.

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romothesavior
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby romothesavior » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:11 pm

gcpallen wrote:Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.

Retaking is virtually always an option. Simply not wanting to retake is not a legitimate reason, its simply laziness.

If you're just looking for a decent paying job to make a living, skip law school. You will likely make just as much working in the computer science field as you will a lawyer from one of these schools (40-60k) but without the huge debt.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:15 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

timbs4339
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:28 pm

gcpallen wrote:Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.


There are very few "decent-paying" non biglaw corporate jobs. It's really biglaw or bust.

If you expect to make more than 60K, don't go to either school.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby somewhatwayward » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:00 pm

The median student at both of these schools did not even get a legal job, let alone one that paid "decently." If you have a computer science degree, get a job with that while you study for another year and try again. If you refuse to do that, go with SJU and drop out if you meet the stipulation....it is absolutely critical that you tell yourself and your friends and family that you will drop out if you lose your scholarship. You will be tempted to stay and pay full tuition (or partial tuition, however it works) because of cognitive biases and social pressure. That is why you need to get the people around you to remind you of your intention if you lose the scholarship. Also, if you are not within the top 40% at SJU (or Brooklyn), your chances of getting a legal job will be substantially reduced anyway.

Whatever the rankings may say, SJU and Brooklyn have identical placement: 10% into big firms/federal clerkships and 48-49% into full-time long-term legal jobs (hence, the median student has no legal job at all). They couldn't be closer. Thus I do not see any reason to choose Brooklyn since it is so much more expensive. Yes the scholarship stips are less stringent, but like I said if you fall below top 40% at SJU or Brooklyn you should crop out anyway.

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Robespierre
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Robespierre » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:49 pm

Clearly not Brooklyn. You'd be looking at 100K+ in debt. You should only take on that kind of debt for a T14 school or MAYBE a handful of others just outside T14.

Even St. John's is a shaky choice. You're looking at about 50K in debt, three years in your mom's basement, possible loss of scholarship via the brutal stipulation, and then a degree from a school placing less than half its grads in real legal jobs and only about 10% in high-quality legal jobs. Not a pretty picture.

I vote neither. Gun to head, SJU.

Agent
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Agent » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Could use more info on your technical background (i.e., academic credentials and w/e).

gcpallen wrote:Retaking is not an option. I want to go to either one of these schools. I have a background in computer science. I am not looking for big law as much as a decent paying job to make a living and enjoy what I do.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 02, 2013 1:05 am

Fuck if I had a compsci degree I would never go to law school. ALL the money is in CS these days, you can make so much more than you would as an attorney. People will fund you to do just about anything, compsci majors are getting money literally thrown at them these days. Just dont go to law school bro. You have more options available to you now then you would coming out sju or bls (unless you really, really fucked up UG).

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jingosaur
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby jingosaur » Thu May 02, 2013 10:27 am

jbagelboy wrote:Fuck if I had a compsci degree I would never go to law school. ALL the money is in CS these days, you can make so much more than you would as an attorney. People will fund you to do just about anything, compsci majors are getting money literally thrown at them these days. Just dont go to law school bro. You have more options available to you now then you would coming out sju or bls (unless you really, really fucked up UG).



I know a lot of tech people who try and go to professional school (I work in tech) and I feel like most of the time it's not because of the money. Dealing with IT help desks, managed services teams, and testing can be brutal and degrading work and people in this industry see law school and business school an outlet to a better career. I've never worked as a lawyer, so I can't make a comparison to the 2 career paths, but I assume that this is OP's reasoning for going to law school. If you go to a top MBA forum like GMAT Club, you'll see that about 80% of the posters are IT people who are looking to go into investment banking, marketing, or other professional-type jobs that don't involve a tech or engineering background.

With that being said, Brooklyn Law and St. John's at these prices aren't the best options. Statistically, people with STEM backgrounds perform much better on the LSAT than average (I assume because of Logic Games) and someone with a comp sci background should be able to get a good enough LSAT score to secure a full ride with little or no stips at one of these schools.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Thu May 02, 2013 11:33 am

St. John's. Brooklyn isn't worth the extra $. Nobody is going to be impressed with Brooklyn, or be more likely to hire you. It's going to be a grind from both of these places, and you shouldn't anticipate over 40-50k a year, and a 5% at a big firm vs. a 4% chance isn't worth an extra 50k. If you're primarily concerned with being able to make an above paralegal/secretary level salary, or going to a highly regarded school you should retake. But because retaking is impossible for you, and you're fine with a 25-30k salary while making loan repayments, St. John's is the right call.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Sat May 04, 2013 1:56 pm

The odds of you getting a job at a large firm are so low you shouldn't consider that your goal. (If, in fact, that was ever your goal). You should make your goal to work gov, or in a 2-10 person firm. Sometimes gov can have decent benefits, it's generally pretty hard to get fired, and after ten years 100k salary is likely. Small 2-10 persons firms are hit and miss. Many are great, and after ten years of bouncing around a couple small firms you can have a good salary with a solid area of expertise. Some will tell you they need an associate when really they need an associate for only 1 yr/1 big project. Maybe you get another gig; probably a good shot if you got any good training during that year. Either way the pay is 45k to start, and if you don't stick around your first firm long enough to develop a niche then your next job will be 45k too.

If you go in wanting these outcomes and you work dilegently towards your goals I think your chances of success are way higher than 50/50. Many on TLS disagree, but I humbly submit to you that you will not be competing with 100% of your class because at least one out of three people at these schools have no idea what they are doing. Some are lost, some lazy, maybe one or two will actually be stupid; regardless, just by logging on to TLS and asking this question I'm betting you are ahead of the game. You'll see what I mean by next Christmas. Good luck.

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romothesavior
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby romothesavior » Sat May 04, 2013 2:53 pm

I've always thought the "everyone in law school is smart and hardworking" schtick was a flame, and obviously a lot of law students have no clue what they're doing. I think you're right Mcduff that you aren't competing with 100% of the class and a 50% employment score doesn't quite pan out to a 50/50 shot at employment. But I also wouldn't say 1 in 3 students can be written off. That seems like a ridiculously high estimate.

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stillwater
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby stillwater » Sat May 04, 2013 3:08 pm

A good number of people, as said above, spend their times shooting themselves in the foot and/or displaying complete incompetence.

bananapeanutbutter
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Re: Brooklyn Law vs. St. John's Law

Postby bananapeanutbutter » Sat May 04, 2013 5:06 pm

stillwater wrote:A good number of people, as said above, spend their times shooting themselves in the foot and/or displaying complete incompetence.

It's dangerous. You have to figure some kids have families making donations who are not going to get bad grades, a few game the system for extra time, etc. 50% is easy, but assuming 10% is where it gets risky and aside from just the general curve, you're banking on a universally equal system, which is naive to expect to be promulgated.




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