Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

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jing87
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Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jing87 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:55 am

I got full ride from U Minnesota and 25k per year scholly from Notre Dame. The COA is almost the same for these two cities, so it will cost about 60k to attend U Minnesota and 120k for Notre Dame (Assume the COA is 20k per year which is very reasonable for both cities)
I have no ties at neither of these two states. I am hoping could land a job at bigger cities like Chicago, Boston or NYC.
Most likely I will do IP law since I have a master at Electrical engineering already .
From what I read online, the big law placement for ND is a little better than UMN, especially if you want to work outside Minnesota. But I am not sure if it is worth to give up a full ride to attend another peer school just for 5% better big law chance.
So please give some advice for this, any advice, i already put my deposit down with UMN and need to get back to ND in 2 weeks.
Thanks for your help.

Update: I just got accepted by George Washington University, but they didn't offer me any scholarship. The admission office said I can ask them to reconsider my scholarship but I don't feel they are gonna offer me any big number.

So my question here is, would it be worth to give up UMN and ND for a GW sticker?
Last edited by jing87 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kyle010723
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby kyle010723 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:04 pm

Can you negotiate with ND to get more money? Also, I wouldn't go to non-T14 with BigLaw in mind. The fact is 90% chance you will not be the top 10% of you class. Being patbar eligible will give you a boost, but MSEE doesn't have that much of a leg up over BSEE (only in Bio do employer really care about advance degree, and by that I mean Ph.D).

If you just want Chicago or NY, ND has a name that will carry. Can't speak to NY, but in Chicago, ND places far better than UMN. Just something to consider.
Last edited by kyle010723 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:18 pm

Given your credentials, I actually think you'd have a decent shot at IP law/midwest "biglaw" out of Minnesota here. The question is, are you okay with practicing in the twin cities/dakotas area? Minnesota grads who network well with an IP background don't need quite as killer grades (top 1/4) as other biglaw gunners. Minneapolis bases the most large firms of any city per capita and they will not run out of jobs for patent attorneys.

Also, the fact that you got a full ride to UMN w/ those stats is very impressive. great deal IMO. I would definitely take over ND unless you hate minneapolis, since you'd definitely be working there post-grad.

I don't know much about Masters v Bachelors for EE, but since you'd be patent eligible either way I can't imagine theirs a substantive difference unless you had journal publications in one and not the other.

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jing87
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jing87 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:26 pm

kyle010723 wrote:Can you negotiate with ND to get more money? Also, I wouldn't go to non-T14 with BigLaw in mind. The fact is 90% chance you will not be the top 10% of you class. Being patbar eligible will give you a boost, but MSEE doesn't have that much of a lag up over BSEE (only in Bio do employer really care about advance degree, and by that I mean Ph.D).

If you just want Chicago or NY, ND has a name that will carry. Can't speak to NY, but in Chicago, ND places far better than UMN. Just something to consider.


I just sent an e-mail to ND try to get more money,not sure if they will accept.

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jing87
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jing87 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:31 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Given your credentials, I actually think you'd have a decent shot at IP law/midwest "biglaw" out of Minnesota here. The question is, are you okay with practicing in the twin cities/dakotas area? Minnesota grads who network well with an IP background don't need quite as killer grades (top 1/4) as other biglaw gunners. Minneapolis bases the most large firms of any city per capita and they will not run out of jobs for patent attorneys.

Also, the fact that you got a full ride to UMN w/ those stats is very impressive. great deal IMO. I would definitely take over ND unless you hate minneapolis, since you'd definitely be working there post-grad.

I don't know much about Masters v Bachelors for EE, but since you'd be patent eligible either way I can't imagine theirs a substantive difference unless you had journal publications in one and not the other.


I went to Minneapolis few weeks ago for the school visit, and professors and alumi there said exactly the same thing as you did: for my background it's not that hard to get a decent job at Minnesota . I like Minneapolis , very nice and laid back city. Just not sure if I am ready to commit rest of my life there, since UMN law diploma doesn't seem that portable.
My bachelor degree is biomedical engineering, no idea why I spent so much time on engineering :|

kyle010723
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby kyle010723 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:35 pm

jing87 wrote:My bachelor degree is biomedical engineering, no idea why I spent so much time on engineering :|


You should've go for a Ph.D in Bio/biomed/biochem... those are the degrees that would get you hired in a heartbeat...

As jbagelboy said, if you dont mind MN and Twin Cities (which are really nice from what I've heard), take UMN. But here's UMN's placement, and here's ND's placement.

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jing87
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jing87 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:08 pm

kyle010723 wrote:
jing87 wrote:My bachelor degree is biomedical engineering, no idea why I spent so much time on engineering :|


You should've go for a Ph.D in Bio/biomed/biochem... those are the degrees that would get you hired in a heartbeat...

As jbagelboy said, if you dont mind MN and Twin Cities (which are really nice from what I've heard), take UMN. But here's UMN's placement, and here's ND's placement.


I am neither talented nor interested in engineering, I remember when I was at grad school I outsourced most of my homework and final projects to Indian classmates...

kyle010723
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby kyle010723 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:14 pm

jing87 wrote:I am neither talented nor interested in engineering, I remember when I was at grad school I outsourced most of my homework and final projects to Indian classmates...


Haha, glad to know all engineers think alike. I am a BSEE.

jad0re
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jad0re » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:19 pm

jing87 wrote:
kyle010723 wrote:
jing87 wrote:My bachelor degree is biomedical engineering, no idea why I spent so much time on engineering :|


You should've go for a Ph.D in Bio/biomed/biochem... those are the degrees that would get you hired in a heartbeat...

As jbagelboy said, if you dont mind MN and Twin Cities (which are really nice from what I've heard), take UMN. But here's UMN's placement, and here's ND's placement.


I am neither talented nor interested in engineering, I remember when I was at grad school I outsourced most of my homework and final projects to Indian classmates...



HAHA I Lol'd (accidentally PM'd you)

BigZuck
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:46 pm

I wouldn't go to Minnesota without strong Minnesota ties and a willingness to work in Minnesota long term. Ditto ND, but I would expand that to just Midwest ties/willingness to work Midwest small law.

I think you need to find a way to go to a different school, you don't have the requisite ties for these places and job placement out of these schools do not align with your career goals.

Agent
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby Agent » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:23 pm

I recommend attending the least expensive school.

jing87 wrote:Most likely I will do IP law since I have a master at Electrical engineering already .

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jing87
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jing87 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:21 pm

Agent wrote:I recommend attending the least expensive school.

jing87 wrote:Most likely I will do IP law since I have a master at Electrical engineering already .


the negotiation with ND is basically failed. I am not sure how much GW will offer but doesn't seem optimistic now. But one reason I like GW is they has a good IP program and I am most likely will do IP law in the futuer.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby Doorkeeper » Wed May 01, 2013 10:26 pm

Did you inform GWU of your scholarships at Minnesota and Notre Dame? That might help in your scholarship issue.

I doubt Minnesota or Notre Dame realistically gives you enough pull to get you to a larger city. I would strongly consider retaking the LSAT and reapplying next year if possible. You want to hit a T14 if you want East Coast/Chicago biglaw.

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minnbills
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby minnbills » Wed May 01, 2013 10:30 pm

jbagelboy wrote:Given your credentials, I actually think you'd have a decent shot at IP law/midwest "biglaw" out of Minnesota here. The question is, are you okay with practicing in the twin cities/dakotas area? Minnesota grads who network well with an IP background don't need quite as killer grades (top 1/4) as other biglaw gunners. Minneapolis bases the most large firms of any city per capita and they will not run out of jobs for patent attorneys.

Also, the fact that you got a full ride to UMN w/ those stats is very impressive. great deal IMO. I would definitely take over ND unless you hate minneapolis, since you'd definitely be working there post-grad.

I don't know much about Masters v Bachelors for EE, but since you'd be patent eligible either way I can't imagine theirs a substantive difference unless you had journal publications in one and not the other.


IP is a whole different ballgame. I have IP friends here at UMN who got 1L SAs before Fall grades even came out. Also, from what I've seen so far, the whole "being constrained to Minneapolis" thing is kindof a flame.

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jing87
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jing87 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:41 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:Did you inform GWU of your scholarships at Minnesota and Notre Dame? That might help in your scholarship issue.

I doubt Minnesota or Notre Dame realistically gives you enough pull to get you to a larger city. I would strongly consider retaking the LSAT and reapplying next year if possible. You want to hit a T14 if you want East Coast/Chicago biglaw.


I did, they said they will reconsider. Also I think I may qualify for the need-based scholarship too.
I don't think retake LSAT could help me a lot. I have an extremely low GPA, for that GPA I should feel lucky any top 50 law school would take me.

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jing87
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Re: Please help to choose: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$

Postby jing87 » Wed May 01, 2013 10:43 pm

minnbills wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:Given your credentials, I actually think you'd have a decent shot at IP law/midwest "biglaw" out of Minnesota here. The question is, are you okay with practicing in the twin cities/dakotas area? Minnesota grads who network well with an IP background don't need quite as killer grades (top 1/4) as other biglaw gunners. Minneapolis bases the most large firms of any city per capita and they will not run out of jobs for patent attorneys.

Also, the fact that you got a full ride to UMN w/ those stats is very impressive. great deal IMO. I would definitely take over ND unless you hate minneapolis, since you'd definitely be working there post-grad.

I don't know much about Masters v Bachelors for EE, but since you'd be patent eligible either way I can't imagine theirs a substantive difference unless you had journal publications in one and not the other.


IP is a whole different ballgame. I have IP friends here at UMN who got 1L SAs before Fall grades even came out. Also, from what I've seen so far, the whole "being constrained to Minneapolis" thing is kindof a flame.


Some UMN alumni told me the same thing during my last school visit. I am not saying Minneapolis is a bad city, but just the whole ' once you go UMN the rest of life will end up there' really terrify me.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby Doorkeeper » Wed May 01, 2013 11:09 pm

LST shows basically all graduates reporting being in Minnesota (62% in MN, 4% in CA, 4% in DC)...so I don't know about whether it's a flame, but the data doesn't seem supportive of that proposition.
Last edited by Doorkeeper on Wed May 01, 2013 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby BigZuck » Wed May 01, 2013 11:15 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:LST shows basically all graduates reporting being in Minnesota (62% in MN, 4% in CA, 4% in DC)...so I don't know about whether it's a flame, but the data doesn't seem to supportive of that proposition.


Not only that but only 66% of the class is even getting lawyer jobs 9 months out. One whole third of the class are not becoming lawyers. If their job placement was strong enough to place outside of Minnesota I would think they would be cranking out more lawyers than they do.

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Nova
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby Nova » Thu May 02, 2013 3:37 am

Doorkeeper wrote:LST shows basically all graduates reporting being in Minnesota (62% in MN, 4% in CA, 4% in DC)...so I don't know about whether it's a flame, but the data doesn't seem supportive of that proposition.

Self selection is of course a big factor. 40% of the class is from Minnesota. A substantial % is from the surrounding states like ND/SD/Wisc/Iowa. Out of those 5 states, the Twin Cities is argueably the best place to live. It really isnt suprising that 62% stay.

Obviously neither school is a good option if your heart is set on the coasts.

BigZuck wrote:Not only that but only 66% of the class is even getting lawyer jobs 9 months out. One whole third of the class are not becoming lawyers.

ND is the same.

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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby Agent » Thu May 02, 2013 11:31 am

Quick comments:

jing87 wrote:I don't think retake LSAT could help me a lot. I have an extremely low GPA, for that GPA I should feel lucky any top 50 law school would take me.
^ It depends on how much higher you score on retake. Passing the 25%, median, or 75% mark adds value to your application, and many schools will pay for that (particularly the median mark).


jing87 wrote:I am not sure how much GW will offer but doesn't seem optimistic now.
^ GW has negotiated with others, and I'll bet that it would with you too. Before contacting them, you might want to search around and confirm that you're using the right negotiating technique.


jing87 wrote:But one reason I like GW is they has a good IP program and I am most likely will do IP law in the futuer.
^ There's some merit to the notion that GW will help you break into IP, but that's complicated and depends on your goals and circumstances. Don't take it at face value.

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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jessierocks » Tue May 14, 2013 1:00 pm

OMG,I receive all those three offers with exactly the same scholarships as you! ND told me they could give me a few more thousands. But I gave up. Maybe in our case, UMN is the best choice. BTW, thanks for your comment on my post. I'm giving up USC now.

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jing87
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jing87 » Tue May 14, 2013 2:46 pm

Lol....I gave up ND weeks ago, and still deciding between GW and UMN. More likely I will go UMN . I admit DC is a great city and has more opportunities,but the high debt from GW will also close many doors for me too(like I have to get a big law job after graduate, but I may 1) not able to 2)not willing to)
Good luck to you for whatever decision you may make.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 14, 2013 2:53 pm

jing87 wrote:Lol....I gave up ND weeks ago, and still deciding between GW and UMN. More likely I will go UMN . I admit DC is a great city and has more opportunities,but the high debt from GW will also close many doors for me too(like I have to get a big law job after graduate, but I may 1) not able to 2)not willing to)
Good luck to you for whatever decision you may make.


I think this is very reasonable. You know the risks. I'm happy for you

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jing87
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jing87 » Tue May 14, 2013 5:41 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
jing87 wrote:Lol....I gave up ND weeks ago, and still deciding between GW and UMN. More likely I will go UMN . I admit DC is a great city and has more opportunities,but the high debt from GW will also close many doors for me too(like I have to get a big law job after graduate, but I may 1) not able to 2)not willing to)
Good luck to you for whatever decision you may make.


I think this is very reasonable. You know the risks. I'm happy for you


I start feeling that you are the dean of Minnesota himself... :)

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jbagelboy
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Re: Please help: Notre Dame $$ vs U Minnesota $$$ vs GW

Postby jbagelboy » Tue May 14, 2013 5:54 pm

jing87 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
jing87 wrote:Lol....I gave up ND weeks ago, and still deciding between GW and UMN. More likely I will go UMN . I admit DC is a great city and has more opportunities,but the high debt from GW will also close many doors for me too(like I have to get a big law job after graduate, but I may 1) not able to 2)not willing to)
Good luck to you for whatever decision you may make.


I think this is very reasonable. You know the risks. I'm happy for you


I start feeling that you are the dean of Minnesota himself... :)


Lol I remember a few days before the Apr 19 the actual Dean of UMN, Prof Wippman (who is actually a yale grad HUGE deal in international law), called me at my office to ask if I had any questions and I was like oh my god. I was very honored but then I felt bad they were still waiting so I sent in my withdrawal that evening

I think its a really great law school though and a full ride there is baller




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