Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

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Myself
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Postby Myself » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:36 am

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Myself » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:38 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Also what gets you excited about defending federal crimes? White collar is VERY different from like defending Federal trafficking charges


The excitement comes from being able to challenge the laws and make new laws via case law at the federal level. This can be done at the state level, but generally you bill more for fed cases than you would state cases, especially on appeals.


Sorry my man, if you're billing a client, your goal shouldn't be seeking to change the law, you should be seeking to serve your client in the best way for him.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Myself » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:44 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
cynthiad wrote:I work (not as a lawyer) at a small firm that does criminal defense, mostly white collar at the federal level. I can't remember any case where we "challenged the law." Mostly you will be negotiating plea agreements for clients. Sometimes you will go to trial, but even then you won't be "challenging the law." Even if you do appeals, cases where you successfully challenge the law and "make new laws" are rare. You should only go into criminal defense if you actually want to defend clients.


I'm aware it is rare, but he asked where the excitement comes. That 1 out of 500 cases where it does happen is thrilling enough for me. Appellate work is mainly where you even have the chance for that anyway


It's less than 1 out of 500.

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VegasLaw702
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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:04 am

ajax adonis wrote:You seem confused about what you want. A federal public defender is much different than a private white-collar defense attorney. Anyway, going to HYS is a safe bet for any type of defense position you're trying to gun for. HYS is pretty good for everything really.


Not confused at all. You seem confused reading my post. I stated that I would like to avoid going through the PD office to get experience and would prefer getting hired to a firm out of school over doing PD first. I realize that it is a great way to get experience but I have friends who struggle to make their student loan payments on PD salary, hence the desire to avoid it, if at all possible.

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kalvano
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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:13 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:You seem confused about what you want. A federal public defender is much different than a private white-collar defense attorney. Anyway, going to HYS is a safe bet for any type of defense position you're trying to gun for. HYS is pretty good for everything really.


Not confused at all. You seem confused reading my post. I stated that I would like to avoid going through the PD office to get experience and would prefer getting hired to a firm out of school over doing PD first. I realize that it is a great way to get experience but I have friends who struggle to make their student loan payments on PD salary, hence the desire to avoid it, if at all possible.


So basically you want to go immediately to a highly specialized type of firm with no practical experience and nothing to offer them other than your completely incorrect notion of what criminal law is all about. You don't want to work at the one place where you get the exact experience you need in order to even be appealing to a firm like that because its hard to do.

That about sum it up?

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:20 am

kalvano wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:You seem confused about what you want. A federal public defender is much different than a private white-collar defense attorney. Anyway, going to HYS is a safe bet for any type of defense position you're trying to gun for. HYS is pretty good for everything really.


Not confused at all. You seem confused reading my post. I stated that I would like to avoid going through the PD office to get experience and would prefer getting hired to a firm out of school over doing PD first. I realize that it is a great way to get experience but I have friends who struggle to make their student loan payments on PD salary, hence the desire to avoid it, if at all possible.


So basically you want to go immediately to a highly specialized type of firm with no practical experience and nothing to offer them other than your completely incorrect notion of what criminal law is all about. You don't want to work at the one place where you get the exact experience you need in order to even be appealing to a firm like that because its hard to do.

That about sum it up?


Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:31 am

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:34 am

rad lulz wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.

You don't seem to know how services are delivered and how to get a job delivering those services

In this hiring environment people will literally murder a puppy to get jobs at PDs, even at T14s

So I wouldn't go into it with the assumption that you want to "avoid PD work" if you are srs about criminal defense

Kalvano is right. If you want to get a job at a small firm doing street crimes at the federal and state level, you're gonna want to start as a DA or PD


You are right, but from the standpoint of wanting to be able to efficiently service debt, it might not be the best option ya know?

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:36 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
kalvano wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:You seem confused about what you want. A federal public defender is much different than a private white-collar defense attorney. Anyway, going to HYS is a safe bet for any type of defense position you're trying to gun for. HYS is pretty good for everything really.


Not confused at all. You seem confused reading my post. I stated that I would like to avoid going through the PD office to get experience and would prefer getting hired to a firm out of school over doing PD first. I realize that it is a great way to get experience but I have friends who struggle to make their student loan payments on PD salary, hence the desire to avoid it, if at all possible.


So basically you want to go immediately to a highly specialized type of firm with no practical experience and nothing to offer them other than your completely incorrect notion of what criminal law is all about. You don't want to work at the one place where you get the exact experience you need in order to even be appealing to a firm like that because its hard to do.

That about sum it up?


Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.


Dude, it's a good thing you are trying to figure out more stuff about why and what you want to be doing after law school, but you've come across as a pretty douchey in this thread. It's painfully obvious you don't really know what you're talking about, yet to keep on insisting that you do.

Maybe there are some (non-shitlaw) defense firms (that are not super elite civil rights litigation boutiques) that hire grads straight out of law school. But this is really not the normal way the path looks. I don't know why any particular T14 would give you an edge on this. You're best bet would be to be in the region you want to look and see if there are any firms like this in the area.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:37 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.

You don't seem to know how services are delivered and how to get a job delivering those services

In this hiring environment people will literally murder a puppy to get jobs at PDs, even at T14s

So I wouldn't go into it with the assumption that you want to "avoid PD work" if you are srs about criminal defense

Kalvano is right. If you want to get a job at a small firm doing street crimes at the federal and state level, you're gonna want to start as a DA or PD


You are right, but from the standpoint of wanting to be able to efficiently service debt, it might not be the best option ya know?


That's why DA/PD people should really focus on limiting debt and being in the region they want to work when choosing a law school.

ETA: Or as pointed out below, a good LRAP.
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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:38 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.

You don't seem to know how services are delivered and how to get a job delivering those services

In this hiring environment people will literally murder a puppy to get jobs at PDs, even at T14s

So I wouldn't go into it with the assumption that you want to "avoid PD work" if you are srs about criminal defense

Kalvano is right. If you want to get a job at a small firm doing street crimes at the federal and state level, you're gonna want to start as a DA or PD

You are right, but from the standpoint of wanting to be able to efficiently service debt, it might not be the best option ya know?


Even with LIPP/LRAP/COAP?

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:43 am

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby kalvano » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:45 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.



Nothing you've said in this thread in any way implies that you know much about the actual practice of criminal law.

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Postby Myself » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:50 am

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:57 am

ajax adonis wrote:
I am detecting some major Special Snowflake Syndrome here.


Quite the opposite, actually. And I'm not sure how inquiring how to avoid going through the PD office to get into criminal defense would imply I have snowflake syndrome. Not everyone who practices criminal defense went through PD first. I'd rather not go through law school with my sights on a $50k/yr PD job if at all possible, I'm sure we would all desire to make more than that. If seeking gainful employment that would allow one to properly service debt along with having a decent amount of money left over to enjoy life implies they are a special snowflake, then I suppose I need to brush up on my definition of what a snowflake really is.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:05 am

kalvano wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.



Nothing you've said in this thread in any way implies that you know much about the actual practice of criminal law.


I might not know as much as I will ~ 3 years from now, which is what law school is for, but I can assure you I have an idea. The question was which, if any, T14 schools have a track record of placing grads into good defense firms. Again, not unheard of. If you are implying that my desire to practice criminal defense outside of the typical street-crime level of criminal defense means that I do not know much about the practice of criminal law, I guess I won't argue with you. The complexity of criminal defense at the federal level can be very challenging, which is what I seek. If one desires not to work DUI and domestic violence cases, this does not mean they don't know much about criminal law, they just don't want to work those cases.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:08 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
kalvano wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:Pretty much, except for your incorrect assumption that my notion of what criminal law is all about is incorrect. But yes, I would prefer to avoid a PD office if at all possible, which is why the question was which T14 schools have a good track record placing recent grads into these types of firms. It isn't unheard of.



Nothing you've said in this thread in any way implies that you know much about the actual practice of criminal law.


I might not know as much as I will ~ 3 years from now, which is what law school is for, but I can assure you I have an idea. The question was which, if any, T14 schools have a track record of placing grads into good defense firms. Again, not unheard of. If you are implying that my desire to practice criminal defense outside of the typical street-crime level of criminal defense means that I do not know much about the practice of criminal law, I guess I won't argue with you. The complexity of criminal defense at the federal level can be very challenging, which is what I seek. If one desires not to work DUI and domestic violence cases, this does not mean they don't know much about criminal law, they just don't want to work those cases.


I'm curious: Can you name a single criminal law firm that concentrates on federal law that hires law grads straight out of law school?

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:09 am

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Clearly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:11 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
I am detecting some major Special Snowflake Syndrome here.


Quite the opposite, actually. And I'm not sure how inquiring how to avoid going through the PD office to get into criminal defense would imply I have snowflake syndrome. Not everyone who practices criminal defense went through PD first. I'd rather not go through law school with my sights on a $50k/yr PD job if at all possible, I'm sure we would all desire to make more than that. If seeking gainful employment that would allow one to properly service debt along with having a decent amount of money left over to enjoy life implies they are a special snowflake, then I suppose I need to brush up on my definition of what a snowflake really is.

Rather, you should brush up on what law grads face. Good hours doing work they enjoy without paying their dues, while making enough to service 250k in debt with enough left over to live comfortably unfortunately isn't a thing.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby smaug_ » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:15 am

OP, you do understand that a lot of lawyers in these specialized fields like that the salary starts low: it ensures that only people who are kill-a-puppy serious about that area get jobs to begin with. White collar crime stuff really is interesting, but it's my impression that the only people who don't have hands on crim experience are like ballers at Williams and Connolly. So, if that's the path that you really want, you would pretty much need to go to HYS and do very well (or absolutely kill it at a lower school, though I don't know if that's really an option.)

Most importantly, if you're not willing to gun your ass off for a slot as a PD and don't have an interest in other areas of law, you shouldn't go to law school. You really need to commit yourself if you're not going down the relatively easy biglaw path.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:17 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
I'm curious: Can you name a single criminal law firm that concentrates on federal law that hires law grads straight out of law school?


I couldn't even name a firm that concentrates on federal law specifically. As far as I know, most defense firms take all sorts of criminal cases, and it is the individual attorneys within the firm that would then have the designation on specialization into federal law. And to answer that question properly, there are several factors that come into play. Where I live (but don't want to practice) which is Las Vegas, plenty of firms hire grads straight out of law school. Granted, we have only one law school here, Boyd, so this might not be a good example. Clerking for local judges is a good way to fast track into these firms out here, but again, since there is only one law school out here, I don't think this would be a good representation of the norm across the country.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:21 am

hibiki wrote:OP, you do understand that a lot of lawyers in these specialized fields like that the salary starts low: it ensures that only people who are kill-a-puppy serious about that area get jobs to begin with. White collar crime stuff really is interesting, but it's my impression that the only people who don't have hands on crim experience are like ballers at Williams and Connolly. So, if that's the path that you really want, you would pretty much need to go to HYS and do very well (or absolutely kill it at a lower school, though I don't know if that's really an option.)

Most importantly, if you're not willing to gun your ass off for a slot as a PD and don't have an interest in other areas of law, you shouldn't go to law school. You really need to commit yourself if you're not going down the relatively easy biglaw path.


I have an interest in other areas of law, and really I would take a job wherever I could get it. Beggers can't be choosers, especially in this market. Which is precisely why I'm gunning for T14 over lower ranked local schools, because I would rather keep my options open instead of set my sights on criminal and criminal only.

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby rad lulz » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:25 am

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Clearly
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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Clearly » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:25 am

Which is why I was the first person to answer with my general rule. When chasing unlikely goals, the best way to mitigate likely disappointment is to do so as cheaply as possible. What are your stats btw??

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Re: Consensus on which T-14 schools are best for...

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sun Apr 28, 2013 3:26 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
I'm curious: Can you name a single criminal law firm that concentrates on federal law that hires law grads straight out of law school?


I couldn't even name a firm that concentrates on federal law specifically. As far as I know, most defense firms take all sorts of criminal cases, and it is the individual attorneys within the firm that would then have the designation on specialization into federal law. And to answer that question properly, there are several factors that come into play. Where I live (but don't want to practice) which is Las Vegas, plenty of firms hire grads straight out of law school. Granted, we have only one law school here, Boyd, so this might not be a good example. Clerking for local judges is a good way to fast track into these firms out here, but again, since there is only one law school out here, I don't think this would be a good representation of the norm across the country.


I wasn't talking about small firms that do personal injury + any criminal work that comes through the door. That doesn't seem to be what you are after (and it certainly won't pay that much better than DA or PD offices--it might pay worse). I was talking about defense firms that were pretty specialized. (Like I mentioned earlier, I know firm in Austin that specializes in federal criminal law (it does do other criminal stuff too)--there's only a few people in the offices though, and I think all of them have experience either in a DA or PD office.) Try googling these types of firms and look at the bios of people. You'll notice a pattern: Time spent in a DA or PD office. Please direct me to any bios you find that have been hired directly out of law school; I really am interested to see if this happens a decent amount (I don't think it does, but would be happy to be wrong on this point).




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