NYU ($) or Columbia ($$) Forum

[nerv]

I've received around 60k from NYU and about 80k from Columbia. Normally, this would seem like a pretty easy choice but I've been reading the thread about graded vs. ungraded legal writing and how important a role it plays in quality of life. It seems like NYU has ungraded while Columbia has a HP/P system. Does this difference involve a significant increase in the amount of studying or stress that most people go through at Columbia or is there not much of a discrepancy between the two schools?

Also, are there any differences in getting a job in Boston between these two, and around what class rank would you need to be at in order to be fairly confident in doing so?

[K Rock]

It seems like NYU has ungraded while Columbia has a HP/P system.

So...they are both ungraded? I really don't think this should be a huge factor.

[nerv]

Well, the thread about LRW seemed to make a distinction. I assumed NYU would be something like P/F while Columbia is more specific about whether you got a H or P or whatever. I would guess that there isn't much of a difference but I am just asking about people's experiences to make sure I'm not totally off.

[SportsFan]

Well, the thread about LRW seemed to make a distinction. I assumed NYU would be something like P/F while Columbia is more specific about whether you got a H or P or whatever. I would guess that there isn't much of a difference but I am just asking about people's experiences to make sure I'm not totally off.

Effectively, they're the same exact thing.

[nerv]

So you are saying that there's no pressure or stress involved in trying to get an H instead of a P at Columbia?

[SportsFan]

So you are saying that there's no pressure or stress involved in trying to get an H instead of a P at Columbia?

AFAIK all the "ungraded" ones have some sort of Honors/Pass/Fail system (where literally no one fails unless you just don't hand in the work).

[Tekrul]

Whatever the distinction is, it's not worth 20k.

Unless you want to be a PI crusader, go CLS

[ManOfTheMinute]

dont choose NYU just because you're scared of getting a P in one class... just accept that you're not going for the H, and you'll have the same QOL, with less debt from a much better school

[Ti Malice]

Well, the thread about LRW seemed to make a distinction. I assumed NYU would be something like P/F while Columbia is more specific about whether you got a H or P or whatever. I would guess that there isn't much of a difference but I am just asking about people's experiences to make sure I'm not totally off.

Effectively, they're the same exact thing.

Not saying that this should significantly influence OP's decision (I vote for CLS), but these systems are actually pretty damn distinct from one another.

[SportsFan]

Well, the thread about LRW seemed to make a distinction. I assumed NYU would be something like P/F while Columbia is more specific about whether you got a H or P or whatever. I would guess that there isn't much of a difference but I am just asking about people's experiences to make sure I'm not totally off.

Effectively, they're the same exact thing.

Not saying that this should significantly influence OP's decision (I vote for CLS), but these systems are actually pretty damn distinct from one another.

Could you explain?

[Ti Malice]

Sure. In one system, everyone gets the same mark. In another, everyone gets one of two marks, one of which is better than the other.

It's analogous to the difference between the first semester at YLS (zero grade stress) and every other semester at YLS (non-zero grade stress).

[SportsFan]

Sure. In one system, everyone gets the same mark. In another, everyone gets one of two marks, one of which is better than the other.

It's analogous to the difference between the first semester at YLS (zero grade stress) and every other semester at YLS (non-zero grade stress).

Ah, interesting. Didn't know it was like that. Thanks. Definitely not something I would use to pick 1 school over the other, though. IMO graded vs. ungraded LW matters a little, but a difference like this... definitely not.

[smaug_]

I don't know how common the HP is, but it is seen as a joke. It isn't something worth gunning for, and I really doubt that any employers care what you got in LPW as it doesn't impact your overall GPA or honors.

[nerv]

I don't know how common the HP is, but it is seen as a joke. It isn't something worth gunning for, and I really doubt that any employers care what you got in LPW as it doesn't impact your overall GPA or honors.

What do you mean by joke? No one cares about getting it?

Also, in general, is going to Columbia with an 85k scholarship a smart choice given how terrible the job market for lawyers is?

[smaug_]

I don't know how common the HP is, but it is seen as a joke. It isn't something worth gunning for, and I really doubt that any employers care what you got in LPW as it doesn't impact your overall GPA or honors.

What do you mean by joke? No one cares about getting it?

Also, in general, is going to Columbia with an 85k scholarship a smart choice given how terrible the job market for lawyers is?

If you knew your writing was great it might be worth putting effort in for, but never as much as you would for real classes because it doesn't impact your GPA. Most people treat the class as ungraded.

For the second, do you want to be a lawyer? Read some threads and think. Whether law school is worth it at all is a better thing to worry about than LPW, though.

[SportsFan]

I don't know how common the HP is, but it is seen as a joke. It isn't something worth gunning for, and I really doubt that any employers care what you got in LPW as it doesn't impact your overall GPA or honors.

What do you mean by joke? No one cares about getting it?

Also, in general, is going to Columbia with an 85k scholarship a smart choice given how terrible the job market for lawyers is?

If you knew your writing was great it might be worth putting effort in for, but never as much as you would for real classes because it doesn't impact your GPA. Most people treat the class as ungraded.

For the second, do you want to be a lawyer? Read some threads and think. Whether law school is worth it at all is a better thing to worry about than LPW, though.

This is exactly how it is at Penn too. They apparently decided to increase the number of H's from ~15% to ~30% to try to motivate people to try harder.

[nerv]

Does anyone know what the percentage of H's at Columbia are?

[Tiago Splitter]

Does anyone know what the percentage of H's at Columbia are?

I believe one person in each LPW class, out of 12-15, gets the H each semester. Everyone treats LPW as an ungraded annoyance.

[jbagelboy]

mind giving stats? how did you get the $80K from CLS?

[BenJ]

So you are saying that there's no pressure or stress involved in trying to get an H instead of a P at Columbia?

AFAIK all the "ungraded" ones have some sort of Honors/Pass/Fail system (where literally no one fails unless you just don't hand in the work).

NYU does not have a separate honors grade for LRW. It's entirely Credit/Fail. Not sure if that's unique.

Regardless, OP, as a 3L at NYU who chose NYU over Columbia: Go to Columbia if these are final offers. Nothing is different enough between the schools to be worth $20k. I suspect NYU would match Columbia's scholarship offer if you tell them about it, but if you tried and they're not willing to, this is not a real choice.

[Bronck]

Dude. I'm willing to bet I put in 4 hours total for each major writing assignment each semester. It's a joke of a class, and everyone passes and NO ONE cares about the high pass.

[BalanceCare]

I live in New York and have given serious thought to both schools. I also received a graduate degree from one of them. Personally, I would take the opposite approach to that advocated by several posters here: even with interest, 20k is not enough money to determine whether you should choose one over the other. Rather, it's a small enough amount of money that you should feel comfortable making the decision based on things like how well you like the school, which school's administration seems more likely to help you vs dick you over if you have a request -- things like that.

Again, I'm not sniffing at the money, but in light of the narrowness of the debate over whether one of these schools is even better than the other, and the fact that law school will take three years of your life, I would encourage you to look at all the facts and then go with your instinct.

[Tekrul]

I live in New York and have given serious thought to both schools. I also received a graduate degree from one of them. Personally, I would take the opposite approach to that advocated by several posters here: even with interest, 20k is not enough money to determine whether you should choose one over the other. Rather, it's a small enough amount of money that you should feel comfortable making the decision based on things like how well you like the school, which school's administration seems more likely to help you vs dick you over if you have a request -- things like that.

Again, I'm not sniffing at the money, but in light of the narrowness of the debate over whether one of these schools is even better than the other, and the fact that law school will take three years of your life, I would encourage you to look at all the facts and then go with your instinct.

This is sound advice overall but OP is quibbling over p/f versus high pass/pass/fail in 1 class. This is not a holistic argument, he is questioning this one factor on a 20k difference.

[BalanceCare]

True true... I guess i should come out and say that personally neither of these factors would make that big a difference to me in light of what seem to be significant cultural differences between the two. But that's just me.

Sorry if that's unhelpful, OP, but you'll probably be all right either way.

[Bronck]

True true... I guess i should come out and say that personally neither of these factors would make that big a difference to me in light of what seem to be significant cultural differences between the two. But that's just me.

Sorry if that's unhelpful, OP, but you'll probably be all right either way.

There really aren't significant cultural differences...