Columbia vs. Berkeley

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Thu May 09, 2013 3:27 pm

Real Madrid wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
Golden Bear 11 wrote:FACTS about Berkeley:

#6 in highest academic reputation (undergraduate) —U.S. News and World Report (February 2013)





LOL no one cares about this fact BECAUSE it is PURELY subjective

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... -officials


Prestige is by its very definition "subjective," dolt. Which is why your posting in this thread is so hilariously ironic. On the one hand, you're arguing (without any factual support) that people in California and on the East Coast in general don't recognize Berkeley as being prestigious while presenting your own uninformed views on school prestige, and on the other hand, you balk at the idea of accepting "prestige rankings" as created by respected publications, claiming they're all "subjective."


First, your resort to personal insults says more about you than it does about him.

Second, there is a difference between reputation, prestige, and eliteness, which I think you are missing. Berkeley's academic reputation is fantastic, and that is what the USNWR ranking is measuring. In fact, I think Berkeley is just after Harvard in its ability to market a brand that everyone recognizes and associates with quality. I think prestige and eliteness are slightly different, though.

Third, I'm not sure that any ranking that puts the undergraduate academic reputation of Berkeley above Cal Tech can be fully trusted. I mean, Cal Tech has something like 900 undergrads, all of whom basically do Ph.D. level work by the time they graduate. Berkeley has several thousand community college transfers who graduate in things like "american studies." They really aren't comparable in terms of average quality of undergraduate students. To a certain extent, reputation rankings, especially ones that are from responses of faculty or administrators at other school, can't really measure the quality of undergraduates at another school. They'd have to be relying on students they get from that school who attend their grad schools (which is a selected group), or graduates that they'd meet professionally (another select group).

Finally, among ordinary people, I think Berkeley's reputation nationally and internationally is better than it is in California. It is precisely the accessibility, both in terms of undergraduate admission and cost, for California residents that removes a lot of the luster. Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).

whereskyle
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby whereskyle » Thu May 09, 2013 3:31 pm

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Thu May 09, 2013 3:34 pm

whereskyle wrote:people want to go to berkeley for its location.


Us Californians can take that for granted sometimes, too, which doesn't help.

I was also thinking about Berkeleys branding as being associated with NPR-listeners. There is some legitimacy you get in liberal circles that comes from being associated with Berkeley that you really can't get somewhere else. That's pretty cool, IMO.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 3:34 pm

whereskyle wrote:people want to go to berkeley for its location.


no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

izha
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby izha » Thu May 09, 2013 3:41 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
whereskyle wrote:people want to go to berkeley for its location.


no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

How does it work for UCI?

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 3:43 pm

izha wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
whereskyle wrote:people want to go to berkeley for its location.


no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

How does it work for UCI?


it doesn't work for uci


i never said orange county

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Thu May 09, 2013 3:43 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
whereskyle wrote:people want to go to berkeley for its location.


no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.


Well, for certain people. I think a lot of east-coasters prefer at least the idea of living in the Bay Area to SoCal. Not that its right, but people sometimes also think living in Berkeley is the same as living in SF. I tend to think the East Bay to SF is kind of like New Jersey is to New York. But, the reality is different than the reputation that it gets from such misperceptions.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 3:45 pm

yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Thu May 09, 2013 3:47 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live


Question: In the song "California Love," does it list every city except Berkeley and Irvine?

They don't know how to party.

Edit: looking at the lyrics, there are lots of references to Oakland, the bay, and even Sactown. Heck, it even lists Pasadena (though it wonders "where you at?" so maybe they actually don't know where it is). No Irvine or Berkeley.
Last edited by The Brainalist on Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Rahviveh » Thu May 09, 2013 3:56 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live



At least you get a great view of SF from the law school, a place that's actually nice to live in LOL. Meanwhile you live in a dump.
Last edited by Rahviveh on Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 09, 2013 3:57 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live


Question: In the song "California Love," does it list every city except Berkeley and Irvine?

They don't know how to party.


...

there are SO many worse cities in CA. like horribly worse. Fresno? Riverside? Come on.

Berkeley has some quality brunch spots and I love the proximity to SF (great city IMO). However, I would tire quickly of the endless rainbow parade on telegraph and the limitations of the town itself

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 3:59 pm

The Brainalist wrote:No Irvine or Berkeley.



because both of those cities suck and are not worth mentioning in a multi-platinum song

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Rahviveh
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Rahviveh » Thu May 09, 2013 4:03 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:No Irvine or Berkeley.



because both of those cities suck and are not worth mentioning in a multi-platinum song


Id still take Irvine over Berkeley any day (schools aside).

Btw whyd you take Crowings avatar?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 09, 2013 4:03 pm

The Brainalist wrote: Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).


I agree with your perspective on Caltech/private lib arts students vs Cal students. more denser quality per capita. And the concept that our proximity to the school dampens its "elite" impact on our psyche.

However, while sure plenty of kids get in to Cal each year from high schools across the state, its far from easy. And I've never seen anyone drop their jaw at Georgetown undergrad. In fact, Georgetown and Berkeley have the same UG acceptance rate: 18%.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu May 09, 2013 4:07 pm

Boy, this thread is great.

Re: undergrad - Berkeley, USC, and UCLA are basically all on equal footing (perceptually and in most rankings), no matter where you go. Those idiotic "Colleges Parents and Students Most Pine After" always have all three schools in their top 20. So whatever, stop arguing about that.

Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.

OP: pick whichever school gives you the most money.

Finally, what manner of self-indulgent clown cares about tiny measures of prestige? Go somewhere you can find a goddamn job.

/thread

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Thu May 09, 2013 6:03 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
The Brainalist wrote: Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).


I agree with your perspective on Caltech/private lib arts students vs Cal students. more denser quality per capita. And the concept that our proximity to the school dampens its "elite" impact on our psyche.

However, while sure plenty of kids get in to Cal each year from high schools across the state, its far from easy. And I've never seen anyone drop their jaw at Georgetown undergrad. In fact, Georgetown and Berkeley have the same UG acceptance rate: 18%.


I'm pretty sure you went to a better high school than I did. Almost nobody would even consider applying to Ivy schools from mine. Even if they could have got in, there is just a perception that they aren't even real options, so people wouldn't even try.

Acceptance rate is deceiving, especially with UC's. Everyone in CA will apply to Berkeley because it doesn't take much more effort and the tuition will be fairly low, exactly the same as lower UC's. If you are applying to the bottom UC, you may as well throw an app to UCLA and UCB, too. For that same effect, look at San Diego State (a CSU, the "lower" tier of the two state systems, but probably the flagship of that system). Its acceptance rate was 32.9% this year, just lower than UCSD (35.5%) and almost half the rates of UC Santa Cruz.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 6:30 pm

PUBLIC HIgher education in california is now shit.

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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 09, 2013 9:34 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.



not that its relevant, but objectively different "slight notch"'s for law schools...:

CLS > Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby Dr. Dre » Thu May 09, 2013 9:37 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
CLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.




FTFY

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu May 09, 2013 9:39 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.



not that its relevant, but objectively different "slight notch"'s for law schools...:

CLS > Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.


I mean... *masturbating hand motions*... okay.

Can we old yeller this thing now?

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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri May 10, 2013 12:29 am

This is a very interesting thread to me. Since Berkeley is so ridiculously expensive and both are at sticker, I find it interesting that OP is having a hard time on pulling the trigger on Columbia. You get to be in NYC for three years!!! That is great. You get greater job security due to the better school, it will cost you about the same as Berkeley and the vast majority of your classmates aren't going to be looking to go to California after LS. It seems like a win-win. The cost for either one really blows though. Where else did you get admitted and what kind of $$ did you get?

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L’Étranger
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby L’Étranger » Fri May 10, 2013 12:45 am

Boalt seems to get hated on way more than other schools in these threads.

Well I go there, and here's some positivity coming at you. As far as I can tell, students here get good jobs and good clerkships all over the country. My class is very diverse in terms of culture, background, and life experience, so its easy to find like-minded people no matter who you are. The town of Berkeley and in fact the entire bay area takes some getting used to if you're not originally from here, but it definitely does have its own charm. Plus amazing weather.

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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon May 13, 2013 3:01 am

Dr. Dre wrote:I've been to berkeley's campus.

Smells like urine, bums all over the place, and no diversity (all asian).

NO, berkeley is not prestigious


Agreed with the first two lines. I'd say it carries some prestige, but not to the extent of Columbia. Cal is aight. Prestige is subjective but I think most Californians view it as, next to Stanford, the "best" school in Cali.

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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby gaucholaw » Mon May 13, 2013 4:45 pm

Whoever says that people in Cali don't consider Cal to be élite are trolling. In California, UC is a strong brand name, and Cal is the flagship. On the west coast it is second only to Stanford (maybe Caltech if you're engineering) even for UG. And honestly, if it weren't for the fact that it is 1. Public 2. on the West Coast, it's undergrad ranking would be quite higher, probably around 15th with Brown and Cornell

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The Brainalist
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Re: Columbia vs. Berkeley

Postby The Brainalist » Mon May 13, 2013 4:55 pm

gaucholaw wrote:Whoever says that people in Cali don't consider Cal to be élite are trolling. In California, UC is a strong brand name, and Cal is the flagship. On the west coast it is second only to Stanford (maybe Caltech if you're engineering) even for UG. And honestly, if it weren't for the fact that it is 1. Public 2. on the West Coast, it's undergrad ranking would be quite higher, probably around 15th with Brown and Cornell


I'm not trolling. I'm from California and don't consider Berkeley to be elite (and I don't use an accent on the e, fwiw), at least in the way I define elite. Maybe I wouldn't see it that way if it weren't 1. Public with a capital Pee and 2. on the west coast. However, it is those two things, so you'll just have to find a way to process that.

Berkeley is a great school. A lot of people from my Junior College were stoked to get in.
Last edited by The Brainalist on Mon May 13, 2013 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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