Columbia vs. Berkeley Forum

[The Brainalist]

FACTS about Berkeley:

#6 in highest academic reputation (undergraduate) —U.S. News and World Report (February 2013)

LOL no one cares about this fact BECAUSE it is PURELY subjective

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/c ... -officials

Prestige is by its very definition "subjective," dolt. Which is why your posting in this thread is so hilariously ironic. On the one hand, you're arguing (without any factual support) that people in California and on the East Coast in general don't recognize Berkeley as being prestigious while presenting your own uninformed views on school prestige, and on the other hand, you balk at the idea of accepting "prestige rankings" as created by respected publications, claiming they're all "subjective."

First, your resort to personal insults says more about you than it does about him.

Second, there is a difference between reputation, prestige, and eliteness, which I think you are missing. Berkeley's academic reputation is fantastic, and that is what the USNWR ranking is measuring. In fact, I think Berkeley is just after Harvard in its ability to market a brand that everyone recognizes and associates with quality. I think prestige and eliteness are slightly different, though.

Third, I'm not sure that any ranking that puts the undergraduate academic reputation of Berkeley above Cal Tech can be fully trusted. I mean, Cal Tech has something like 900 undergrads, all of whom basically do Ph.D. level work by the time they graduate. Berkeley has several thousand community college transfers who graduate in things like "american studies." They really aren't comparable in terms of average quality of undergraduate students. To a certain extent, reputation rankings, especially ones that are from responses of faculty or administrators at other school, can't really measure the quality of undergraduates at another school. They'd have to be relying on students they get from that school who attend their grad schools (which is a selected group), or graduates that they'd meet professionally (another select group).

Finally, among ordinary people, I think Berkeley's reputation nationally and internationally is better than it is in California. It is precisely the accessibility, both in terms of undergraduate admission and cost, for California residents that removes a lot of the luster. Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).

[whereskyle]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

[The Brainalist]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

Us Californians can take that for granted sometimes, too, which doesn't help.

I was also thinking about Berkeleys branding as being associated with NPR-listeners. There is some legitimacy you get in liberal circles that comes from being associated with Berkeley that you really can't get somewhere else. That's pretty cool, IMO.

[Dr. Dre]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

[izha]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

How does it work for UCI?

[Dr. Dre]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

How does it work for UCI?

it doesn't work for uci


i never said orange county

[The Brainalist]

people want to go to berkeley for its location.

no really. This is true of schools in San Diego, Los Angeles, but not berkeley.

Well, for certain people. I think a lot of east-coasters prefer at least the idea of living in the Bay Area to SoCal. Not that its right, but people sometimes also think living in Berkeley is the same as living in SF. I tend to think the East Bay to SF is kind of like New Jersey is to New York. But, the reality is different than the reputation that it gets from such misperceptions.

[Dr. Dre]

yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live

[The Brainalist]

yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live

Question: In the song "California Love," does it list every city except Berkeley and Irvine?

They don't know how to party.

Edit: looking at the lyrics, there are lots of references to Oakland, the bay, and even Sactown. Heck, it even lists Pasadena (though it wonders "where you at?" so maybe they actually don't know where it is). No Irvine or Berkeley.

[Rahviveh]

yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live

At least you get a great view of SF from the law school, a place that's actually nice to live in LOL. Meanwhile you live in a dump.

[jbagelboy]

yup, the city of berkeley is a terrible place to live

Question: In the song "California Love," does it list every city except Berkeley and Irvine?

They don't know how to party.

...

there are SO many worse cities in CA. like horribly worse. Fresno? Riverside? Come on.

Berkeley has some quality brunch spots and I love the proximity to SF (great city IMO). However, I would tire quickly of the endless rainbow parade on telegraph and the limitations of the town itself

[Dr. Dre]

No Irvine or Berkeley.

because both of those cities suck and are not worth mentioning in a multi-platinum song

[Rahviveh]

No Irvine or Berkeley.

because both of those cities suck and are not worth mentioning in a multi-platinum song

Id still take Irvine over Berkeley any day (schools aside).

Btw whyd you take Crowings avatar?

[jbagelboy]

Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).

I agree with your perspective on Caltech/private lib arts students vs Cal students. more denser quality per capita. And the concept that our proximity to the school dampens its "elite" impact on our psyche.

However, while sure plenty of kids get in to Cal each year from high schools across the state, its far from easy. And I've never seen anyone drop their jaw at Georgetown undergrad. In fact, Georgetown and Berkeley have the same UG acceptance rate: 18%.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Boy, this thread is great.

Re: undergrad - Berkeley, USC, and UCLA are basically all on equal footing (perceptually and in most rankings), no matter where you go. Those idiotic "Colleges Parents and Students Most Pine After" always have all three schools in their top 20. So whatever, stop arguing about that.

Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.

OP: pick whichever school gives you the most money.

Finally, what manner of self-indulgent clown cares about tiny measures of prestige? Go somewhere you can find a goddamn job.

/thread

[The Brainalist]

Berkeley is a huge school, and has to take a certain number of in-state students. I know tons of people from my high school who went to Berkeley, and my high school was a shitshow. There was no awe associated with their admissions - it was pretty normal. On the other hand, if someone went to a top east coast school like Georgetown, you'd drop your jaw. I could see, though, that if you were not from California and were removed from both the accessibility and the tuition discount, and Berkeley was a bit more exotic, that you might hold it in higher esteem. In addition, if you were only exposed to the top performers from the school, which is likely the case if you are out of state or in grad school, then you'd have a higher impression. However, from where I stand, Berkeley is a great school, but doesn't invoke the same feeling from me as an Ivy League or equivalent (e.g. Stanford or Georgetown).

I agree with your perspective on Caltech/private lib arts students vs Cal students. more denser quality per capita. And the concept that our proximity to the school dampens its "elite" impact on our psyche.

However, while sure plenty of kids get in to Cal each year from high schools across the state, its far from easy. And I've never seen anyone drop their jaw at Georgetown undergrad. In fact, Georgetown and Berkeley have the same UG acceptance rate: 18%.

I'm pretty sure you went to a better high school than I did. Almost nobody would even consider applying to Ivy schools from mine. Even if they could have got in, there is just a perception that they aren't even real options, so people wouldn't even try.

Acceptance rate is deceiving, especially with UC's. Everyone in CA will apply to Berkeley because it doesn't take much more effort and the tuition will be fairly low, exactly the same as lower UC's. If you are applying to the bottom UC, you may as well throw an app to UCLA and UCB, too. For that same effect, look at San Diego State (a CSU, the "lower" tier of the two state systems, but probably the flagship of that system). Its acceptance rate was 32.9% this year, just lower than UCSD (35.5%) and almost half the rates of UC Santa Cruz.

[Dr. Dre]

PUBLIC HIgher education in california is now shit.

[jbagelboy]

Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.

not that its relevant, but objectively different "slight notch"'s for law schools...:

CLS > Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.

[Dr. Dre]

CLS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.

FTFY

[John_rizzy_rawls]

Re: law school - Columbia is a slight notch above Berkeley which is a slight notch above USC/UCLA.

not that its relevant, but objectively different "slight notch"'s for law schools...:

CLS > Cal >>>>> USC/UCLA.

I mean... *masturbating hand motions*... okay.

Can we old yeller this thing now?

[bizzybone1313]

This is a very interesting thread to me. Since Berkeley is so ridiculously expensive and both are at sticker, I find it interesting that OP is having a hard time on pulling the trigger on Columbia. You get to be in NYC for three years!!! That is great. You get greater job security due to the better school, it will cost you about the same as Berkeley and the vast majority of your classmates aren't going to be looking to go to California after LS. It seems like a win-win. The cost for either one really blows though. Where else did you get admitted and what kind of $$ did you get?

[L’Étranger]

Boalt seems to get hated on way more than other schools in these threads.

Well I go there, and here's some positivity coming at you. As far as I can tell, students here get good jobs and good clerkships all over the country. My class is very diverse in terms of culture, background, and life experience, so its easy to find like-minded people no matter who you are. The town of Berkeley and in fact the entire bay area takes some getting used to if you're not originally from here, but it definitely does have its own charm. Plus amazing weather.

[ManoftheHour]

I've been to berkeley's campus.

Smells like urine, bums all over the place, and no diversity (all asian).

NO, berkeley is not prestigious

Agreed with the first two lines. I'd say it carries some prestige, but not to the extent of Columbia. Cal is aight. Prestige is subjective but I think most Californians view it as, next to Stanford, the "best" school in Cali.

[gaucholaw]

Whoever says that people in Cali don't consider Cal to be élite are trolling. In California, UC is a strong brand name, and Cal is the flagship. On the west coast it is second only to Stanford (maybe Caltech if you're engineering) even for UG. And honestly, if it weren't for the fact that it is 1. Public 2. on the West Coast, it's undergrad ranking would be quite higher, probably around 15th with Brown and Cornell

[The Brainalist]

Whoever says that people in Cali don't consider Cal to be élite are trolling. In California, UC is a strong brand name, and Cal is the flagship. On the west coast it is second only to Stanford (maybe Caltech if you're engineering) even for UG. And honestly, if it weren't for the fact that it is 1. Public 2. on the West Coast, it's undergrad ranking would be quite higher, probably around 15th with Brown and Cornell

I'm not trolling. I'm from California and don't consider Berkeley to be elite (and I don't use an accent on the e, fwiw), at least in the way I define elite. Maybe I wouldn't see it that way if it weren't 1. Public with a capital Pee and 2. on the west coast. However, it is those two things, so you'll just have to find a way to process that.

Berkeley is a great school. A lot of people from my Junior College were stoked to get in.