T10 options for DC?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which option for DC?

Columbia $88k debt
11
23%
NYU $72k debt
1
2%
UVA $22k savings
28
60%
Michigan $21k savings
1
2%
Duke $6k savings
6
13%
 
Total votes: 47

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hohenheim
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T10 options for DC?

Postby hohenheim » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:18 am

I'm interested in pursuing antitrust litigation, which primarily limits me to NYC and DC. I'm from DC, have good legal connections in the city in my desired practice area (thanks to my current job), and have heard that QOL for biglaw associates is higher here than in NYC (though this is obviously based on anecdotes). So I'd like to put myself in the best position to come back to DC and succeed.

Assumptions:
I'll be living with a working SO, so I have decided not to include COL costs in my comparison of schools (since her salary will basically track the COL difference) and to assume that she will contribute no money towards tuition. I have savings to put towards tuition, but no expected family contribution. I have not included any expected SA money and have assumed 3% cost increases for every year including this one. I have no retakes left for this cycle or next, though because of GPA I don't think things would change dramatically anyway. All scholly's are after negotiation (Columbia/NYC pending) and all have already increased their offer.

Options:
School (Scholly) Tuition Cost --> Tuition Debt after applying current savings
Columbia ($0) $184k --> $88k debt
NYU ($0) $167k --> $72k debt
UVA ($75k/instate) $72k --> $22k savings
Michigan ($90k) $73k --> $21k savings
Duke ($75k) $89k --> $6k savings

My main question is, will the New York schools provide any greater long-term benefit in this field than the cheaper options? I am basically wondering if my long-term career options will be at all affected by choosing Columbia/NYU or if that will just help get the first job. I'm in a position where the debt load will not be extremely large from any of these schools, so I'm trying to figure out if I'm sacrificing long-term benefit to avoid a relatively small amount of debt.

Also, if not Columbia/NYU, then which of the cheaper schools will best position me for antitrust litigation in DC and why?

TL;DR
Not much debt from any school, but will the cheaper options get me back to DC?

framboozer
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby framboozer » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:30 pm

I think you can eliminate Michigan and NYU. This is between Columbia, UVA and Duke, any of which can get you back to DC. It's a matter of personal preference, where your SO can get a job and how much debt you want to take out.

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hohenheim
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby hohenheim » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:40 pm

framboozer wrote:I think you can eliminate Michigan and NYU. This is between Columbia, UVA and Duke, any of which can get you back to DC. It's a matter of personal preference, where your SO can get a job and how much debt you want to take out.


Thanks for the reply. I'm fine with the debt, but I'd feel dumb paying ~110k more for Columbia if there isn't going to be any long term difference. Lots of people on TLS talk about the great outcomes out of Columbia, but most of that talk has to do with initial placement in NYC-based V10s. Does it have similar heft elsewhere and what grades do I need from Columbia to get DC?

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moonman157
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby moonman157 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:49 pm

I can't imagine CLS being much better than UVA for DC, and especially not worth the difference in terms of cost. UVA seems like the obvious choice to me.

framboozer
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby framboozer » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:57 pm

moonman157 wrote:I can't imagine CLS being much better than UVA for DC, and especially not worth the difference in terms of cost. UVA seems like the obvious choice to me.


Given that he's in state, I think this would be right. My only concern is the ability of his SO to get a good job in Charlotteville vs. NYC or Raleigh-Durham.

BigZuck
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:11 pm

I got Duke to match 90K at Cornell. I would assume they would be more than happy to match 90K at Michigan.

When they do, enjoy Duke.

framboozer
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby framboozer » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:15 pm

BigZuck wrote:I got Duke to match 90K at Cornell. I would assume they would be more than happy to match 90K at Michigan.

When they do, enjoy Duke.


Good point. Didn't notice the lower Duke scholly. Deposit deadline is Friday though so OP would have to ask for an extension, but I see no reason that they wouldn't match a Mich scholly. They have been very open to scholarship negotiation.

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hohenheim
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby hohenheim » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:38 pm

framboozer wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I got Duke to match 90K at Cornell. I would assume they would be more than happy to match 90K at Michigan.

When they do, enjoy Duke.


Good point. Didn't notice the lower Duke scholly. Deposit deadline is Friday though so OP would have to ask for an extension, but I see no reason that they wouldn't match a Mich scholly. They have been very open to scholarship negotiation.


Do you see Duke as being better in DC than UVA and Mich? Attorneys I've talked to in the city seem less aware of it than the other two (not that they thought poorly of it, but they didn't think of it until I mentioned it to them, while they immediately though of UVA and Mich as solid schools). On the other hand, most of the people I talked to had graduated 20+ years ago... and Duke's placement has been pretty solid recently.

BigZuck
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:44 pm

hohenheim wrote:
framboozer wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I got Duke to match 90K at Cornell. I would assume they would be more than happy to match 90K at Michigan.

When they do, enjoy Duke.


Good point. Didn't notice the lower Duke scholly. Deposit deadline is Friday though so OP would have to ask for an extension, but I see no reason that they wouldn't match a Mich scholly. They have been very open to scholarship negotiation.


Do you see Duke as being better in DC than UVA and Mich? Attorneys I've talked to in the city seem less aware of it than the other two (not that they thought poorly of it, but they didn't think of it until I mentioned it to them, while they immediately though of UVA and Mich as solid schools). On the other hand, most of the people I talked to had graduated 20+ years ago... and Duke's placement has been pretty solid recently.


I don't know that it's objectively better than UVA but its probably quite similar and I doubt UVA is 30K better or whatever the difference would be. I would take Michigan out of the equation due to inferior placement recently (although I fully acknowledge how butt hurt that will make some people so sorry to bring that into your thread).

Probably just me drinking the Duke Kool Aid but after seeing the Duke in DC presentation at ASW I was convinced that Duke is a great option for someone who wants DC, perhaps even better than a school like Georgetown.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby NoodleyOne » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:58 pm

hohenheim wrote:
framboozer wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I got Duke to match 90K at Cornell. I would assume they would be more than happy to match 90K at Michigan.

When they do, enjoy Duke.


Good point. Didn't notice the lower Duke scholly. Deposit deadline is Friday though so OP would have to ask for an extension, but I see no reason that they wouldn't match a Mich scholly. They have been very open to scholarship negotiation.


Do you see Duke as being better in DC than UVA and Mich? Attorneys I've talked to in the city seem less aware of it than the other two (not that they thought poorly of it, but they didn't think of it until I mentioned it to them, while they immediately though of UVA and Mich as solid schools). On the other hand, most of the people I talked to had graduated 20+ years ago... and Duke's placement has been pretty solid recently.

I would guess that UVA benefits a lot from self-selection (40% VA residents, presumably a large portion from Nova), and general proximity in regards to it's DC placement. DC, from the people I talked to at ASW and online, is the main target for many at UVA, while I don't know if that's the same from Duke. Anyone have any numbers as to whether a firm dips lower for UVA gpa-wise?

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IAFG
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby IAFG » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:59 pm

Doesn't city matter for your SO's career?

framboozer
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby framboozer » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:08 pm

Full disclosure: I am just a 0L, though I have a large amount of friends/family in various T14's, plus I work in the legal field already. This has provided me with no shortage of anecdotes, but I am still just a 0L. I also got significant money from Duke, UVA and Michigan and am choosing Duke, so there's my full disclosure.

That being said, as you already guessed Michigan is viewed by older attorneys in a way that is no longer reflected in hiring. I've looked at charts of T14 placement for the past 5 years and Michigan underperformed in all of them really. In contrast schools like Duke and Northwestern overperform their rank. Michigan is the least sensicsl of your choices. UVA's employment is a little more nebulous and shady due to the school -sponsored jobs. I think UVA certainly places more into DC mostly due to self-selection as the best closest school to the market and you would be competing against more of your own classmates in addition to impressive resumes from the entire T14. In that way UVA is the most DC centric of the three and of its peer schools in general. I feel pretty confident in saying it doesn't give a significant advantage for DC, but what kind of advantage if any it gives I won't pretend to know. I think DC is a tough nut to crack in general. I would talk to current students at Columbia, UVA and Duke who are heading to DC or tried to and listen to what they say and like I said you cannot discount your SO's job prospects.

As you probably already know, UVA is 2+ hours away and Duke is 4, so neither is too far.

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hohenheim
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby hohenheim » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:12 pm

BigZuck wrote:I don't know that it's objectively better than UVA but its probably quite similar and I doubt UVA is 30K better or whatever the difference would be. I would take Michigan out of the equation due to inferior placement recently (although I fully acknowledge how butt hurt that will make some people so sorry to bring that into your thread).

Actually, as it stands UVA is cheaper than Duke by 15k. Would you take duke at equal cost?

IAFG wrote:Doesn't city matter for your SO's career?

NYC would definitely offer greater options, no doubt about it, but it's not a huge concern for her.

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IAFG
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby IAFG » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:14 pm

What on earth is this girl doing that she's equally confident that she can support you guys and grow her career in NYC and a college town?

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moonman157
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby moonman157 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:14 pm

UVA is the cheapest, most focused on DC, and city doesn't matter for your SO. Again, I think this choice is clear.

framboozer
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby framboozer » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:17 pm

UVA is the cheapest? Seems to be the credited response then. I was reading it as 6K in debt for Duke, making it the cheapest, but I see how I misread.

Anyway, I'm still curious about your SO's career situation.
Last edited by framboozer on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

20141023
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby 20141023 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:19 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby IAFG » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:25 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:What on earth is this girl doing that she's equally confident that she can support you guys and grow her career in NYC and a college town?

I know one type of employment that can be done anywhere... :lol:

Yeah I was also guessing software engineer.

Jimbo_Jones
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby Jimbo_Jones » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:29 pm

IAFG wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:What on earth is this girl doing that she's equally confident that she can support you guys and grow her career in NYC and a college town?

I know one type of employment that can be done anywhere... :lol:

Yeah I was also guessing software engineer.


Or possibly nursing. Seems to be a pretty mobile career.

20141023
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby 20141023 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:32 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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hohenheim
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby hohenheim » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:38 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:No, I don't think you get it. I was jokingly alluding to something that might really offend the OP if I actually write it. Just so you get it this time, but so I don't offend the OP, I will write it in really small letters so that only you can see it. Dentist.

Ha, try me reg.

PS I'm sad that Chicago is holding out on me. I would have loved to make spreadsheets in Chi-town with you.

BigZuck
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Re: T10 options for DC?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:40 pm

framboozer wrote:UVA is the cheapest? Seems to be the credited response then. I was reading it as 6K in debt for Duke, making it the cheapest, but I see how I misread.

Anyway, I'm still curious about your SO's career situation.


Yup, I'm too dense to understand the OPs idiosyncratic way of saying how much each school costs. There needs to be a standard way for dumb dumbs like me (personally all I really care about is total cost of attendance for all three years with COL and interest and tuition increases factored in). I also thought Duke was the cheapest and if he squeezed 15K more out of them he would somehow be making 9K on the whole venture (or, at least, not spending that 9K out of his savings).

If UVA is the cheapest then definitely UVA.




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