POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

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Tekrul
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Tekrul » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:21 am

Your GPA is holding you back less so than your LSAT score.

Retake and reap scholarships.

I hope you clicked those links and saw the employment data.

Everyone's response here is for no-ones benefit but your own.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:29 am

152 to 165-170 seems like quite a jump. Maybe you are right though. I could also go through the law enforcement tests over the summer and have a back up plan. I really don't wanna deal with the scum down here though. You have no idea how bad it can be in some of these areas. I dunno... the alumni base for St. Thomas is big. My friend also transferred to GW from St. Thomas after ranking 4th. The caliber of student is supposedly really low. It almost seems like knocking out the first year as quickly as possible, and just studying 24/7 would be just as efficient as a retake.

This is a really really tough decision. If I was 21 I would retake the LSAT. I have a girl and need a life outside of my parent's house though. I just want to throw myself into it and call it a day.

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romothesavior
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby romothesavior » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:31 am

It is an absolutely doable jump. You can do far better for yourself long tern by going to a school worth attending.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:35 am

Things will also be super competitive at a strong regional school. From everthing I've read, it seems to me that a top low tier is the equivalent of a middle road 2 tier. Why is planning for a transfer that poor a decision? If I can conceivably get 165-170 on the LSAT, shouldn't I blow the competition at St. Thomas away? This would be transfer options or one of the better graduates coming out of the school. Plus, financially it will not be a huge burden. I would live at home the first year for sure. See how I perform. With my scholarship, and my parents helping tuition, I would only be in the hole 20k before I see my performance. That is a very manageable and insignificant figure.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:36 am

*lower tier, high class ranking is equivalent to middle road tier 2. That is what I meant.

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lever1je
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby lever1je » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:37 am

How much are your parents contributing that would make this degree "practically free?" You said you have a $25,000 scholarship (which I'll assume is per year) but tuition is almost $20,000/semester for Fall and Spring. With a 2 year program, I'm assuming you'll be in summer classes too so tack on another $13,000. That's $53,000 a year. Plus Cost of Living and books. You're not even receiving half off of tuition, so practically free is wholly inaccurate unless your parents are throwing $50,000 your way.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:42 am

T4Rockstar wrote:152 to 165-170 seems like quite a jump. Maybe you are right though. I could also go through the law enforcement tests over the summer and have a back up plan. I really don't wanna deal with the scum down here though. You have no idea how bad it can be in some of these areas. I dunno... the alumni base for St. Thomas is big. My friend also transferred to GW from St. Thomas after ranking 4th. The caliber of student is supposedly really low. It almost seems like knocking out the first year as quickly as possible, and just studying 24/7 would be just as efficient as a retake.

This is a really really tough decision. If I was 21 I would retake the LSAT. I have a girl and need a life outside of my parent's house though. I just want to throw myself into it and call it a day.


1) The fact that St. Thomas has a big alumni base hasn't translated into any sort of decent legal employment data for St. Thomas, so it's not really an important fact.
2) Finishing very high in your class is so hard to accurately predict for a multitude of reasons. First, you have no clue if you are the type of person who will be good at law school exams, which don't entirely track intelligence or work effort. Second, even if you are good at a certain type of law school exam, you might have class where you get formats you aren't as good at (multiple choice versus fact pattern essays under strict time limits versus take home tests). Third, if you have a professor that gives a dumb exam (example: one essay, very broad policy question) or has an exam that is unfair for any number of reasons, that's enough to completely completely tank your GPA if you get unlucky on that one exam. Fourth, if you get sick during or around finals, that could be enough to tank your GPA, even if it's just one class. Fifth, if you just have a poor showing (think your LSAT) on one of those exams, even if you knew your stuff, that could be enough to tank your GPA.

The LSAT is much more predictable, much more fair, and a much better written test than what you'll encounter in law school. This is not a really tough decision. The next few months for you should be spent alternating between LSAT prep and playing tennis.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:44 am

With Florida Coastal I get 25k. They are about 40k a year. I would take out 20k in loans. My parents would probably pay living expenses, books, etc.

With St. Thomas I get 7k for the year (I emailed them for an increase and we will see how that goes). They are about 35k or so for the year. I would take out 20k, have no cost of living at all, and the rest would be paid for by parents (books, a little tuition, living expenses, gas, etc.)

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Tekrul
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Tekrul » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:47 am

You are forfeiting renegotiation power by letting the law school own you by enrolling. Retake the LSAT and you'll come back on the other end of this power spectrum.

How many other people enrolling at this law school do you think is coming in with the plan to 'blow everyone away' and transfer? You are not the only one. Retaking the LSAT will get you better schools, more money, and carries inherently less stress than trying to be valedictorian.

It is literally the best choice as well as the ONLY good choice. Your other suggestions don't hold a candle to it. It's frustrating to see you rationalize it away.

Edit: seriously not a minute of studying? You are doing yourself a tremendous disservice by not studying and retaking very possibly with lifelong impact.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:52 am

Maybe you guys are right. I don't know if I am going to be able to sell it to the folks, but I think I am going to bring it into the conversation. They are not happy with me mooching on them without actually being productive in the process. They really just want me doing something. I'm also afraid that the structures of law schools might change, federal money could dry up, and if I don't do as well on the LSAT, it might result in me just having wasted another year - ending up where I started.

I appreciate the input. I have a feeling that law is going to come back. I don't think a juris doctorate from a low level school is going to be worthless forever.

Also... it seems like everyone talks about how law school is not the same as practicing law. Who cares where the degree is form if you can use connections to get some experience under your belt? This is just another point. I am trying to see both sides and playing devil's advocate. If 35 percent are employed out of St. Thomas... Going there and doing well doesn't seem problematic.

I really do appreciate this input. I've been thinking about all of this and haven't discussed it much with people. My dad says not to worry about getting a job. Just study and get the damn degree and then worry about it.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:03 am

T4Rockstar wrote:My dad says not to worry about getting a job. Just study and get the damn degree and then worry about it.


Bro, that's literally the shitboomer anthem. They think because jobs were flowing out of every orifice of society in the 80's for anyone with an advanced degree the same circumstances remain today. Horseshit.

Do not listen to that. Do all you can to convince him with numbers and charts, like objective data. Explain how you're only trying to better your chances for a good life by studying, retaking, and sitting out.

If he listens, cool. If he doesn't, whatever. Don't make important, potentially life altering, decisions based off how your parents feel about it. Nut up and do the right thing.

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lever1je
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby lever1je » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:06 am

T4Rockstar wrote:With Florida Coastal I get 25k. They are about 40k a year. I would take out 20k in loans. My parents would probably pay living expenses, books, etc.

With St. Thomas I get 7k for the year (I emailed them for an increase and we will see how that goes). They are about 35k or so for the year. I would take out 20k, have no cost of living at all, and the rest would be paid for by parents (books, a little tuition, living expenses, gas, etc.)


You're leaving out the summer tuition in that total for FCL, which you'll have if you do the 2 year fast track program. It's important to factor that in, it's another $13,000 a year which is a big chunk of change to not be figuring into everything.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:07 am

T4Rockstar wrote:Maybe you guys are right. I don't know if I am going to be able to sell it to the folks, but I think I am going to bring it into the conversation. They are not happy with me mooching on them without actually being productive in the process. They really just want me doing something. I'm also afraid that the structures of law schools might change, federal money could dry up, and if I don't do as well on the LSAT, it might result in me just having wasted another year - ending up where I started.

I appreciate the input. I have a feeling that law is going to come back. I don't think a juris doctorate from a low level school is going to be worthless forever.

Also... it seems like everyone talks about how law school is not the same as practicing law. Who cares where the degree is form if you can use connections to get some experience under your belt? This is just another point. I am trying to see both sides and playing devil's advocate. If 35 percent are employed out of St. Thomas... Going there and doing well doesn't seem problematic.

I really do appreciate this input. I've been thinking about all of this and haven't discussed it much with people. My dad says not to worry about getting a job. Just study and get the damn degree and then worry about it.


It needs to be emphasized that paying for law schools like Florida Coastal and St. Thomas was a bad decision even when the legal economy was booming. The most important thing about a law school is its employment statistics and both these schools have done a horrible job at placing their students into actual legal jobs.

Convincing your parents can be an understandably difficult task. The whole education system was a lot different when they were growing up--money spent on education was usually a very good bet. Now, that's just not simply true--while there are still good bets, there are plenty of bad bets. Maybe print out this thread and ask them to read it. Make sure they know that many of the people in this thread offering you advice are second year and third year law students who are very familiar with the legal market (second year and third year students need to be since a decent amount of legal hiring that results in long-term employment happens in your second year of law school).

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:15 am

So you guys think that graduating from a top 75 school really increases your chances that much? I mean, I think these lower tiers school are a bad investment for very marginal minds. But hustle and bustle, and a good head seems to be the name of the game in this world. 60k of debt for a degree just seems like a good bet.

Argh!!!!! I wanted to believe!!!!!

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:21 am

T4Rockstar wrote:So you guys think that graduating from a top 75 school really increases your chances that much? I mean, I think these lower tiers school are a bad investment for very marginal minds. But hustle and bustle, and a good head seems to be the name of the game in this world. 60k of debt for a degree just seems like a good bet.

Argh!!!!! I wanted to believe!!!!!


It's not 60K, lawyer salaries are based on a bimodal distribution - high at the high end, very low (if at all) on the low end.

Do not go to one of these schools.

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Clearly
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Clearly » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:26 am

Listen to them. Retake, even if you opt not to go to a top school, you'll get enough money to gamble on a better school with much less debt then you're going to carry with this plan. Your number are off, this is going to cost you a lot, and give you very bad chances. Realize that now you have to convince your parents to hold off for a year while you pursue a better job, but when you have loan debt and no job 4 years from now, they are going to be even less inclined to help you. Just google law school transparency... Its far from perfect but it's the most accurate portrayal of just how bad these schools are right now. I'd be fairly certain the desirable employment outcomes from your undergrad are just as good as these law schools, might as well just go get a job and save the money.

Please retake. I too once posted about attending a bad school with my low GPA, and tried to justify the decision. TLS convinced me (and by extension my family) to retake. It was worth it for sure, I will have great options because I trusted the advice on this forum, which just happens to be the exact advice your getting now.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:27 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
T4Rockstar wrote:So you guys think that graduating from a top 75 school really increases your chances that much? I mean, I think these lower tiers school are a bad investment for very marginal minds. But hustle and bustle, and a good head seems to be the name of the game in this world. 60k of debt for a degree just seems like a good bet.

Argh!!!!! I wanted to believe!!!!!


It's not 60K, lawyer salaries are based on a bimodal distribution - high at the high end, very low (if at all) on the low end.

Do not go to one of these schools.




60K in debt. That is what I would be graduating with... worst case scenario if I had to stay at that school. I am saying if I miss the mark, I will only be 60k in debt. I think I can make a living and cover that. Is that not the case? People I have talked to have reported 50-65k salaries.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:30 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:Listen to them. Retake, even if you opt not to go to a top school, you'll get enough money to gamble on a better school with much less debt then you're going to carry with this plan. Your number are off, this is going to cost you a lot, and give you very bad chances. Realize that now you have to convince your parents to hold off for a year while you pursue a better job, but when you have loan debt and no job 4 years from now, they are going to be even less inclined to help you. Just google law school transparency... Its far from perfect but it's the most accurate portrayal of just how bad these schools are right now. I'd be fairly certain the desirable employment outcomes from your undergrad are just as good as these law schools, might as well just go get a job and save the money.

Please retake. I too once posted about attending a bad school with my low GPA, and tried to justify the decision. TLS convinced me (and by extension my family) to retake. It was worth it for sure, I will have great options because I trusted the advice on this forum, which just happens to be the exact advice your getting now.



Where were you going to go, and where did you end up going?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:31 am

T4Rockstar wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
T4Rockstar wrote:So you guys think that graduating from a top 75 school really increases your chances that much? I mean, I think these lower tiers school are a bad investment for very marginal minds. But hustle and bustle, and a good head seems to be the name of the game in this world. 60k of debt for a degree just seems like a good bet.

Argh!!!!! I wanted to believe!!!!!


It's not 60K, lawyer salaries are based on a bimodal distribution - high at the high end, very low (if at all) on the low end.

Do not go to one of these schools.




60K in debt. That is what I would be graduating with... worst case scenario if I had to stay at that school. I am saying if I miss the mark, I will only be 60k in debt. I think I can make a living and cover that. Is that not the case? People I have talked to have reported 50-65k salaries.


Do whatever you want dude but $60K is a 20% down payment on an almost quarter million dollar house which can be your initial investment nestegg to set you on the path to financial stability - that amount of cash is nothing to scoff at or take on needlessly to satiate your boomer ass folks.

Employment stats don't lie and you are not a unique or special snowflake - study, retake, and reapply early.

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Clearly
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Clearly » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:35 am

T4Rockstar wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:Listen to them. Retake, even if you opt not to go to a top school, you'll get enough money to gamble on a better school with much less debt then you're going to carry with this plan. Your number are off, this is going to cost you a lot, and give you very bad chances. Realize that now you have to convince your parents to hold off for a year while you pursue a better job, but when you have loan debt and no job 4 years from now, they are going to be even less inclined to help you. Just google law school transparency... Its far from perfect but it's the most accurate portrayal of just how bad these schools are right now. I'd be fairly certain the desirable employment outcomes from your undergrad are just as good as these law schools, might as well just go get a job and save the money.

Please retake. I too once posted about attending a bad school with my low GPA, and tried to justify the decision. TLS convinced me (and by extension my family) to retake. It was worth it for sure, I will have great options because I trusted the advice on this forum, which just happens to be the exact advice your getting now.



Where were you going to go, and where did you end up going?


Original plan was Cardozo, now looking T-14. To clarify, I haven't gone yet but my retake puts top schools in play. A year ago I would have enthusiastically attended a T50 before I was informed of the very things you're being told above. Trust me as someone who was literally in your exact situation, and opted to heed the advice, that I am glad I did.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:47 am

Clearlynotstefan wrote:
T4Rockstar wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:Listen to them. Retake, even if you opt not to go to a top school, you'll get enough money to gamble on a better school with much less debt then you're going to carry with this plan. Your number are off, this is going to cost you a lot, and give you very bad chances. Realize that now you have to convince your parents to hold off for a year while you pursue a better job, but when you have loan debt and no job 4 years from now, they are going to be even less inclined to help you. Just google law school transparency... Its far from perfect but it's the most accurate portrayal of just how bad these schools are right now. I'd be fairly certain the desirable employment outcomes from your undergrad are just as good as these law schools, might as well just go get a job and save the money.

Please retake. I too once posted about attending a bad school with my low GPA, and tried to justify the decision. TLS convinced me (and by extension my family) to retake. It was worth it for sure, I will have great options because I trusted the advice on this forum, which just happens to be the exact advice your getting now.


My option would be to hold out for a t50 school. Is a top 50-75 school not even worth it? A 2.7 is going to make getting into a top100 school tough i think.



Where were you going to go, and where did you end up going?


Original plan was Cardozo, now looking T-14. To clarify, I haven't gone yet but my retake puts top schools in play. A year ago I would have enthusiastically attended a T50 before I was informed of the very things you're being told above. Trust me as someone who was literally in your exact situation, and opted to heed the advice, that I am glad I did.

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Clearly
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Clearly » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:51 am

T4Rockstar wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:
T4Rockstar wrote:
Clearlynotstefan wrote:Listen to them. Retake, even if you opt not to go to a top school, you'll get enough money to gamble on a better school with much less debt then you're going to carry with this plan. Your number are off, this is going to cost you a lot, and give you very bad chances. Realize that now you have to convince your parents to hold off for a year while you pursue a better job, but when you have loan debt and no job 4 years from now, they are going to be even less inclined to help you. Just google law school transparency... Its far from perfect but it's the most accurate portrayal of just how bad these schools are right now. I'd be fairly certain the desirable employment outcomes from your undergrad are just as good as these law schools, might as well just go get a job and save the money.

Please retake. I too once posted about attending a bad school with my low GPA, and tried to justify the decision. TLS convinced me (and by extension my family) to retake. It was worth it for sure, I will have great options because I trusted the advice on this forum, which just happens to be the exact advice your getting now.


My option would be to hold out for a t50 school. Is a top 50-75 school not even worth it? A 2.7 is going to make getting into a top100 school tough i think.



Where were you going to go, and where did you end up going?


Original plan was Cardozo, now looking T-14. To clarify, I haven't gone yet but my retake puts top schools in play. A year ago I would have enthusiastically attended a T50 before I was informed of the very things you're being told above. Trust me as someone who was literally in your exact situation, and opted to heed the advice, that I am glad I did.

To be clear, there are T-14s that will drop below 3.0 for a high enough lsat and work experience. They happen to have great job prospects.

T4Rockstar
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby T4Rockstar » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:05 am

My option would be to hold out for a t50 school. Is a top 50-75 school not even worth it? A 2.7 is going to make getting into a top100 school tough i think.



Where were you going to go, and where did you end up going?[/quote]

Original plan was Cardozo, now looking T-14. To clarify, I haven't gone yet but my retake puts top schools in play. A year ago I would have enthusiastically attended a T50 before I was informed of the very things you're being told above. Trust me as someone who was literally in your exact situation, and opted to heed the advice, that I am glad I did.[/quote][/quote]
To be clear, there are T-14s that will drop below 3.0 for a high enough lsat and work experience. They happen to have great job prospects.[/quote]

My best job is working like 6 years for Florida Atlantic University. Transcribed lectures for deaf students for like 20-30 hours a week. So I got to listen to lectures from every single subject for 6 years and got paid for it! Awesome experience... Anyways... you really think that plays as a big stat with better schools? The more time I sit here, the bigger the blank in my resume and transcripts.

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rinkrat19
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby rinkrat19 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:10 am

T4Rockstar wrote:My best job is working like 6 years for Florida Atlantic University. Transcribed lectures for deaf students for like 20-30 hours a week. So I got to listen to lectures from every single subject for 6 years and got paid for it! Awesome experience... Anyways... you really think that plays as a big stat with better schools? The more time I sit here, the bigger the blank in my resume and transcripts.
He's referring to Northwestern, which (almost) requires work experience but is known for taking sub-3.0 GPAs as long as they make up for it with stellar LSATs (think 174+).

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Clearly
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Re: POS school, but practically free and 2 years!

Postby Clearly » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:12 am

A 2.7 173+ has a fair chance at Northwestern with several years of postgrad work experience. That said, you don't need to shoot that high, doing better on the LSAT will still open more significant scholarships up and mitigate the risk. Honestly, it's the most important test of your life, and to go about it like you did is remarkably irresponsible. You seem like an intelligent fellow here, how can you justify not studying for the most important test of your life? It matters more than your GPA does to schools! Retake, and bust your ass, realizing that a great school is still possible, even with your GPA. My first practice test was around your range, its entirely possible to pick up tons of points from there. Just do it man.




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