How hard is it to get into BigFed? (Retake for HYS)

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Flips88
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby Flips88 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:47 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote: The EEOC hasn't held its honors program in at least 3 years. So that's all a huge problem.

Yeah I worked for the EEOC for 1L and the office I was in had hired I think 4 new lawyers since 2008 and 1 of them was using some back door workaround for the honors program freeze. The takeaway from my summer was if you want a good fed agency job, you gotta either go clerk for a couple years or do big law for 2-3 years or be at the top of HYS and get into whatever small honors programs are left.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:00 am

Desert Fox wrote:Why are you guys hyping HYS as FEDERAL POWERHOUSES.

In 2012:

3% of Yale grads did ANY type of government
4% of Harvard grads
<2% of Stanford grads
14% of Georgetown grads did some type of government work

Other than Penn and U of C, the HYS schools put less people into government than the rest of the T14.

Is there any objective reason to think Fed Gov particularly favors them? Even if they are favored, it still seems like a long shot.


The question is, what % of people who wanted a gov job got it at HYS compared to georgetown/rest of T14. Its probably more self-selection than anything, as people go to georgetown when they want to do government and don't get HYS (note: this last thing could be totally untrue, but I do not believe in government work, so its neither here nor there)

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:20 am

I also think it's possible with HYS the numbers going into govt might look low because it's something people do after they clerk? Also, I'm not sure that it's really that the absolute numbers favor HYS as that the government jobs they do get are at the very top of the heap. Don't a lot of Georgetown grads go into JD-preferred jobs? But yeah, Georgetown seems to place well in government.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:57 am

n
Last edited by ssanonymous on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BigZuck
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby BigZuck » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:05 am

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Why are you guys hyping HYS as FEDERAL POWERHOUSES.

In 2012:

3% of Yale grads did ANY type of government
4% of Harvard grads
<2% of Stanford grads
14% of Georgetown grads did some type of government work

Other than Penn and U of C, the HYS schools put less people into government than the rest of the T14.

Is there any objective reason to think Fed Gov particularly favors them? Even if they are favored, it still seems like a long shot.


The question is, what % of people who wanted a gov job got it at HYS compared to georgetown/rest of T14. Its probably more self-selection than anything, as people go to georgetown when they want to do government and don't get HYS (note: this last thing could be totally untrue, but I do not believe in government work, so its neither here nor there)


Problem with self-selection is in a thread where someone questions why HYS big law placement isn't higher someone says its because they are self selecting into clerkships/prestigious PI. Then in a thread where people question why they don't place more into prestigious PI people say they are self selecting into clerkships/big law. Basically, who the hell knows what they are self selecting into?

Also, I like that you really are Ron Swanson.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:38 am

Yeah, we don't know what Yale clerkship people are self-selecting into - I wish we had that data. But 1/3 of the class is in federal clerkships, and they have to go to *something* after. I have a hard time thinking the 1/3 of the class that was successful in clerkship applications is facing terrible outcomes. Even if just 1/3 of the clerkship group goes into fedgov, that would up Yale's fedgov percentage a lot.

(Yes, I picked 1/3 of clerks out of thin air - I realize it may be fewer. Sadly, I will never be able to speak to Yale law hiring outcomes from any kind of personal experience...)

In any case, what exact percentage of HYS ends up in fedgov doesn't take away from the conclusion that 1) YHS gives you great employment opportunities and 2) fedgov hiring ranges from quite to incredibly competitive.

jarofsoup
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:49 am

It is absurd that people believe that HYS is a path way to BigFed. Getting into Fed Gov is actually all about this:

1. Who did you know when you interned in XYZ agency?

2. Do they like you?

3. Are you grades above a 3.0 at a decent law school, or the one that they went to?

4. Hiring freeze/sequester?

If you want Fed my advice would be to intern, build connections, and pray. Going to HYS is nice, but its about connections...and building connections.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:50 am

n
Last edited by ssanonymous on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:51 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, we don't know what Yale clerkship people are self-selecting into - I wish we had that data. But 1/3 of the class is in federal clerkships, and they have to go to *something* after. I have a hard time thinking the 1/3 of the class that was successful in clerkship applications is facing terrible outcomes. Even if just 1/3 of the clerkship group goes into fedgov, that would up Yale's fedgov percentage a lot.

(Yes, I picked 1/3 of clerks out of thin air - I realize it may be fewer. Sadly, I will never be able to speak to Yale law hiring outcomes from any kind of personal experience...)

In any case, what exact percentage of HYS ends up in fedgov doesn't take away from the conclusion that 1) YHS gives you great employment opportunities and 2) fedgov hiring ranges from quite to incredibly competitive.

http://www.law.yale.edu/studentlife/emp ... rkship.htm

First non-clerkship employment. 12.4% avg in government between 2006-2010. I'm sure it's lower now. There's also a sizeable number (maybe 3-4% of the class) that will be in school funded fellowships in Fed Gov, usually in things like the Senate Judiciary Committee or White House Counsel's office that I think don't hire entry levels. It's up to you what you think about that.
Last edited by Elston Gunn on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:53 am

n
Last edited by ssanonymous on Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SportsFan
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby SportsFan » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 am

ssanonymous wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:It is absurd that people believe that HYS is a path way to BigFed. Getting into Fed Gov is actually all about this:

1. Who did you know when you interned in XYZ agency?

2. Do they like you?

3. Are you grades above a 3.0 at a decent law school, or the one that they went to?

4. Hiring freeze/sequester?

If you want Fed my advice would be to intern, build connections, and pray. Going to HYS is nice, but its about connections...and building connections.


But don't clerkships = preference in fedgov? And HYS = clerkships?

Not necessarily. If anything, I'd say its a preference for litigation over transactional in biglaw.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:08 am

SportsFan wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:It is absurd that people believe that HYS is a path way to BigFed. Getting into Fed Gov is actually all about this:

1. Who did you know when you interned in XYZ agency?

2. Do they like you?

3. Are you grades above a 3.0 at a decent law school, or the one that they went to?

4. Hiring freeze/sequester?

If you want Fed my advice would be to intern, build connections, and pray. Going to HYS is nice, but its about connections...and building connections.


But don't clerkships = preference in fedgov? And HYS = clerkships?

Not necessarily. If anything, I'd say its a preference for litigation over transactional in biglaw.

She means don't federal agencies prefer grads with clerkships. I think it depends, but DOJ litigating divisions definitely do.

SportsFan
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby SportsFan » Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:10 am

Elston Gunn wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:It is absurd that people believe that HYS is a path way to BigFed. Getting into Fed Gov is actually all about this:

1. Who did you know when you interned in XYZ agency?

2. Do they like you?

3. Are you grades above a 3.0 at a decent law school, or the one that they went to?

4. Hiring freeze/sequester?

If you want Fed my advice would be to intern, build connections, and pray. Going to HYS is nice, but its about connections...and building connections.


But don't clerkships = preference in fedgov? And HYS = clerkships?

Not necessarily. If anything, I'd say its a preference for litigation over transactional in biglaw.

She means don't federal agencies prefer grads with clerkships. I think it depends, but DOJ litigating divisions definitely do.

Ah, I misread a bit. Thought it was preference FOR fedgov.

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okinawa
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby okinawa » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:17 am

HYS are not bigfed powerhouses. They will help with DOJ Honors (some components), as well as places like SDNY USAO. Whether HYS helps anywhere else completely depends on the hiring process. Agencies that let field offices interview and select their own candidates are a complete wildcard, with some preferring local schools and actively disliking Harvard (for some reason, it's always Harvard, not t14).

With DC headquarters, HYS probably helps but so does Georgetown. So does going to school in a city with an agency where you can intern during school, or city with many branch offices like NYC. I also suspect any school that places well in DC biglaw will be useful for lateraling into an agency after a few years.

What HYS will really help with, though, is getting your Plan B when you are one of the thousands of law graduates unable to get bigfed.

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RAWR
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby RAWR » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:19 am

ssanonymous wrote:Hey everyone,

so if someone wants to get into BigFed/BigGov, is HYS the only way to go? I read this in another thread and it terrified me:

I wanted to do BigFed as well. I went to Gtown at sticker. I do not want to discourage you, and take this with a grain of salt as I am just finishing up 1L so I haven't been here long, but it seems really hard to get a BigFed job. I hustled my ass off, applied to 10-15 agencies here in DC, had a few "informational interviews" with some people at those agencies over lunch and stuff. I never even got a real interview to any of the agencies. I've heard that they all went to Y or H students but that could just be what people here say.

On the other hand, because I had so much trouble finding government work in DC, I started networking (albeit pretty late) with people in Indy (home market), mostly firms with family friends. People seem impressed by a Gtown degree and I'm hopeing that carries over into next summer's employment. I wouldn't really mind going back home and working at a firm if BigFed didnt work out.

So take that for what its worth. If it matters I was above median first semester, prolly top 40-45 or so. Not great but not bad, I really thought I wouldve gotten AN interview from one of those places at least.


It sounds like HYS students and perhaps the top 10-15% of students at T-14 schools are set up for BigGov while everyone else is SOL (assuming they're not already very well connected). Is this a fair assessment?


Who is the user who wrote that original quote? I'd like to get into contact with them.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:37 am

RAWR wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:Hey everyone,

so if someone wants to get into BigFed/BigGov, is HYS the only way to go? I read this in another thread and it terrified me:

I wanted to do BigFed as well. I went to Gtown at sticker. I do not want to discourage you, and take this with a grain of salt as I am just finishing up 1L so I haven't been here long, but it seems really hard to get a BigFed job. I hustled my ass off, applied to 10-15 agencies here in DC, had a few "informational interviews" with some people at those agencies over lunch and stuff. I never even got a real interview to any of the agencies. I've heard that they all went to Y or H students but that could just be what people here say.

On the other hand, because I had so much trouble finding government work in DC, I started networking (albeit pretty late) with people in Indy (home market), mostly firms with family friends. People seem impressed by a Gtown degree and I'm hopeing that carries over into next summer's employment. I wouldn't really mind going back home and working at a firm if BigFed didnt work out.

So take that for what its worth. If it matters I was above median first semester, prolly top 40-45 or so. Not great but not bad, I really thought I wouldve gotten AN interview from one of those places at least.


It sounds like HYS students and perhaps the top 10-15% of students at T-14 schools are set up for BigGov while everyone else is SOL (assuming they're not already very well connected). Is this a fair assessment?


Who is the user who wrote that original quote? I'd like to get into contact with them.


ColtsFan88

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby Big Dog » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:55 am

So the fed gov is hiring lawyers with little experience, but they seem to favor HYS.


Always have. Always will.

14% of Georgetown grads did some type of government work


Don't forget that some/(many?) of GU's students originated from Govt, took a couple of years off to attend LS, and returned to their agency. Thus, those stats need to be viewed in context.
Last edited by Big Dog on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:57 am

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Myself
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Postby Myself » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:20 pm

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alex.feuerman
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby alex.feuerman » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:06 pm

How hard / easy is it to lateral into the DOJ from biglaw? Assuming T6 and practicing in litigation / government regulatory / anti-trust.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:13 pm

alex.feuerman wrote:How hard / easy is it to lateral into the DOJ from biglaw? Assuming T6 and practicing in litigation / government regulatory / anti-trust.

My understanding is that this is definitely possible (i.e. I've talked to people who've done it). I don't know how to characterize whether it's easy or hard; I think it's hard in the sense that getting any good law job is hard, and DOJ will get hundreds of applicants for one opening; there also aren't a lot of openings ITE (sequester/hiring freezes/etc.). My impression is also that doing this depends on making connections and amassing relevant experience. But this is based on reading around on the subject, not personal experience.

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twenty
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby twenty » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:17 pm

My agency is only allowed to hire people with authorization from the POTUS, VPOTUS, or the Secretary.

Long story short, don't count on bigfed.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:51 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:My agency is only allowed to hire people with authorization from the POTUS, VPOTUS, or the Secretary.

Long story short, don't count on bigfed.


wow.

09042014
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:54 pm

ssanonymous wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:My agency is only allowed to hire people with authorization from the POTUS, VPOTUS, or the Secretary.

Long story short, don't count on bigfed.


wow.


The sequester is causing furloughs of CURRENT employees. They can't afford new ones. Honors hiring will be a joke this next year.

Turning down big lawl is a recipe for graduating unemployed ITE.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:59 pm

n
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