How hard is it to get into BigFed? (Retake for HYS)

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ssanonymous
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How hard is it to get into BigFed? (Retake for HYS)

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:28 pm

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IAFG
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:31 pm

The top 10-15% is far from guaranteed. HYS is also far from guaranteed. Also the top 10-15% at HYS is far from guaranteed (coming straight out of LS).

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:36 pm

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IAFG
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:38 pm

I've heard that hiring has gotten a lot better. It could be a very different world by the time 0Ls and 1Ls now are looking for fulltime work. But for my class and the class above me (2012 and 2013) no grade range had much of a chance.

09042014
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:45 pm

IAFG wrote:I've heard that hiring has gotten a lot better. It could be a very different world by the time 0Ls and 1Ls now are looking for fulltime work. But for my class and the class above me (2012 and 2013) no grade range had much of a chance.


Sequester has buttfucked hiring again.

The EPA administrator for the Midwest gave a speech at my school. And she said she couldn't even really hire unpaid interns, and don't accept volunteers. Her suggestion to a student who asked how to get a job was basically "get experience somewhere else and try later."

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:57 pm

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09042014
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:58 pm

ssanonymous wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
IAFG wrote:I've heard that hiring has gotten a lot better. It could be a very different world by the time 0Ls and 1Ls now are looking for fulltime work. But for my class and the class above me (2012 and 2013) no grade range had much of a chance.


Sequester has buttfucked hiring again.

The EPA administrator for the Midwest gave a speech at my school. And she said she couldn't even really hire unpaid interns, and don't accept volunteers. Her suggestion to a student who asked how to get a job was basically "get experience somewhere else and try later."


But aren't there the honors programs?


I don't know a whole lot about it, but isn't that just how they hire a lot of entry level people. If there aren't entry level jobs, the honors programs won't have many positions.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:01 pm

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IAFG
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:03 pm

ssanonymous wrote:I'm a 0L, but I believe honors programs traditionally go to lawyers just out of law school. So the fed gov is hiring lawyers with little experience, but they seem to favor HYS.

Yes honors programs exist. Yes, they often favor high grades and prestigious schools. But it's not like X00 honors positions exist and are hired each year. In recent years, the hiring numbers have been very, VERY small.

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 062914123 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:03 pm

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okinawa
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby okinawa » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:09 pm

It depends on what bigfed you mean, too. DOJ has the biggest honors class, but also the most prestige and grades focused. At some agencies, grades and law school ranking don't matter that much, as long as your grades are over a 3.0 (though some have higher GPA requirements for schools outside the top 20 or 25). But you need to show a serious dedication to their area of law (decreasing your marketability in doing other things, in some areas) and they only hire 1-6 people nationally a year. You don't find out if you're that 1 person until most of the way through your 3L year.

HYS or no, your chances are pretty bad. You aren't SOL if you don't go to HYS and want bigfed, you are just hoping for a 1 in 1000 chance.

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:17 pm

ssanonymous wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Sequester has buttfucked hiring again.

The EPA administrator for the Midwest gave a speech at my school. And she said she couldn't even really hire unpaid interns, and don't accept volunteers. Her suggestion to a student who asked how to get a job was basically "get experience somewhere else and try later."


But aren't there the honors programs?


I don't know a whole lot about it, but isn't that just how they hire a lot of entry level people. If there aren't entry level jobs, the honors programs won't have many positions.


I'm a 0L, but I believe honors programs traditionally go to lawyers just out of law school. So the fed gov is hiring lawyers with little experience, but they seem to favor HYS.


What I'm saying is that when hiring goes down, Honors hiring goes down. We don't know what post sequester honors looks like.

I've never seen convincing data that HYS DOMINATES fedgov.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:19 pm

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 062914123 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:23 pm

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:26 pm

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:39 pm

Extremely competitive. Lots of people at HYS are on the "government" track, just like people are on the "private practice" track. Fedgov has the best compensation, most complex work, best exit options, and is the most selective. HY especially seem to feed a lot of people to DC. When the DOJ freezes hiring or cuts their honors program in half, those top 10-15% HYS students will apply to other federal agencies, and everyone else is displaced, moving down the chain until there are no agencies left. And when the DOJ cuts their program, other agencies are likely suffering the same budgetary restrictions.

Fedgov also has a LOT of midlevel and senior associates coming out of biglaw and wanting to move into government. If you don't get an honors program out of LS, you might want to consider working for a firm > clerking and applying later.

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okinawa
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby okinawa » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:44 pm

ssanonymous wrote:I've worked in government, and I've been pretty satisfied with the quality of life and the type of work.


You can't really say that you know what the quality of life and work is like, because federal agencies are not all homogenous. Some litigation attorneys end up traveling constantly, still working long hours ramping up to trials, but at a 1/3rd of biglaw salary. Some never, ever see the inside of a courtroom. If you've worked in government, you know what your agency's quality of life and work is like.

While some sections of DOJ are keen on clerkships, other honors programs disqualify you from applying if you have a year's worth of legal experience; others do so at two years. So a state clerkship -> federal clerkship, assuming both are a year long despite a move to two year clerkships for many judges, takes you out of the running of a number of honors programs.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby Scotusnerd » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:57 pm

Yeah it is difficult. I know someone who has (well-respected) family members in a federal agency, and they were certain they would have an unpaid internship there over the summer. They had been informed by the agency that they would have it.

That same person got a call a few days ago telling him the deal was off due to the sequester.

I know this seems like common sense, but don't trust anything with the federal government. They are subject to the political whims of a bunch of yahoos who don't know how to pass a budget. Your ass will be dropped in a heartbeat if the winds shift that way.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:23 pm

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:00 pm

okinawa wrote:While some sections of DOJ are keen on clerkships, other honors programs disqualify you from applying if you have a year's worth of legal experience; others do so at two years. So a state clerkship -> federal clerkship, assuming both are a year long despite a move to two year clerkships for many judges, takes you out of the running of a number of honors programs.

I think you are already in fedgov so I'm sure you know about programs I'm not familiar with, but I spent last summer/fall researching and applying to honors programs, and I didn't find any that counted clerkships as legal experience. In fact, doing clerkships preserves your eligibility for a lot of honors programs (at least for DOJ, DOI, NLRB, DOL, CPFB, DHS, DOE, FCC. I don't know about IRS - because lol at me doing tax - or USPS. Doing a clerkship doesn't bar you from HUD, but you can't apply for HUD if you're actually admitted to a bar, which I find bizarre, but oh well). The more finance-based agencies are a huge hole in my knowledge, though.

My impression is that the HYS-preference thing really varies by agency, or even components within the agency. The only people I've ever been able to track down who have made it into DOJ Civil Rights, for instance, are HYS-former COA clerk types with ridiculously stellar stats. Other components are way less concerned with the school status (for instance, I know someone going to DOJ Crim from a very-lower-T1. This person had great grades and did a COA clerkship, but it's obviously not a fancy school). Someone who spoke at my school about DOJ Honors said it varied a lot by who was hiring in a given year; he went from a big state undergrad to a fancy fancy law school, and as he put it, "I'm still the same person I was when I went to [big UG], but suddenly people think I'm smart b/c I went to Fancy Law School?" So he didn't care about the specific school rank/prestige, but he knew people in his agency who did. (Obviously this is all anecdata, unfortunately.)

The big issue is what people have already raised, the number of positions, which is very few (and I can't imagine it growing next fall, though it may get better). This past year, Labor got 1000+ applications and hired under 10 if they hired anyone at all. DHS also got 1000+ applications and hired 5-8 or something? The EEOC hasn't held its honors program in at least 3 years. So that's all a huge problem.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:12 pm

Just to clarify, and this is likely a dumb question, but is this discussion w/ regard to post-graduation jerbs, 1L summer, 2L summer, or all of the above? My understanding is that the Honors programs are for graduates, so I'm wondering - for someone interested in exploring BigFed, how competitive is it to get a 1L summer internship w/ a respectable but not top tier agency (i.e. not DOJ)?

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 062914123 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:39 pm

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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:45 pm

I was talking about post-grad. I don't know very much about what's needed to get these jobs during law school - it's less hard, I think, in that there are a lot of openings for interns and most government agencies love unpaid help. But I'm sure what's actually required varies from agency to agency and by location and so on.

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ssanonymous
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby ssanonymous » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:20 am

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09042014
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Re: How hard is it to get into BigFed?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:44 am

Why are you guys hyping HYS as FEDERAL POWERHOUSES.

In 2012:

3% of Yale grads did ANY type of government
4% of Harvard grads
<2% of Stanford grads
14% of Georgetown grads did some type of government work

Other than Penn and U of C, the HYS schools put less people into government than the rest of the T14.

Is there any objective reason to think Fed Gov particularly favors them? Even if they are favored, it still seems like a long shot.




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