Wake Forest or W&L or...?

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rheannabanana
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby rheannabanana » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:35 am

Tekrul wrote:As you have adjusted your schedule to wake earlier now, then you are also in a good position to mock take the LSAT like real conditions early in the morning. I would role play the actual exam. Get into a small chair, bring your ziploc with all the stuff inside (ticket, pencils, erasers, etc) and take the test at exactly the same time the real thing would be. Practice that way and then crush the test on your next retake.

Did this current retake increase the quality of your cycle? I bet it did, and you can bet cash money that a good third retake will increase it again. You say you froze on the test. That means you can do better. That means you should take it again.

Edit: it seems like you're not living with the guy that put your test taking prep and test day mentality under duress. As it seems, you are getting by, and you can improve your score given you are working on the factors that were hurting it.


There is a possibility that I may be able to do better, but I will never know because I'm not retaking again. It's not financially feasible and it is too big of a risk for me to take without anything close to a guarantee of an improvement in score and prospects. I actually really love Wake Forest, but I just wanted to open myself up to input on W&L in light of my recent acceptance, and see if there was anything I was missing in comparing the two.

(Btw, I still live in the same place because I can't afford to move out on my own, but over time we have learned to coexist a little more peacefully. That, and I'm learning to sleep through noise out of pure necessity.)

froglee
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby froglee » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:55 am

YankeesFan wrote:
froglee wrote:
All of those schools you listed have terrible employment outcomes. Not to go is the most constructive advice I can think of, but you already rejected it.


Wake gives him a solid shot at legal employment at minimal debt levels (although OP, you need to get them to match W&L's offer).



http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake&show=ABA

Nope. It does not. Out of its 2012 graduate class, 78% got full-time legal position. And we all know that a 35~36 years old is more likely to end up among that 22% than a 26 years old.

Only 3 people got public interest jobs, which OP just considers as a secondary option to pay back loans.

And 17% of its graduates found biglaw jobs(+100 firms). I doubt OP has a shot in those firms given its age.

So how does Wake gives OP a solid shot at legel jobs?

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:12 am

Actually if 78% is true that is pretty damn good for a school in Wake Forest's range. I don't think OP is at greater risk of falling into the 22%. Being older seems to be about neutral in the end...some people report it as a negative, some as a positive. I believe WF is still risky but at 78% employment they are beating a lot of higher-ranked schools. OP better be ready for probably being limited to NC, though.

Also, OP, I think you need to let go of the idea that you should have gone to law school two years ago. For one thing, you didn't and if someone invents a time machine, I would like to know, but it is totally useless regret at this point. Also, though, if it was the schools available to you with your old LSAT score, trust me, the likelihood is that you would not be sitting pretty right now. You'd probably be a 2L staring down the barrel of unemployment. Even if it is the same schools you are considering now, this cycle is less competitive, so you are probably getting better deal and employment is improving somewhat. It is probably better to be entering now than two years ago. Regardless of what is going on personally, being an unemployed indebbted 2L now would not help.

cm2015
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby cm2015 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:31 am

OP, I know you said you have narrowed it down to these two but with a 165 these are far from your only two options. You said you have family in GA, what about Emory/UGA? With a 165 you could get money from both, or UNC for N Carolina jobs. Even if you don't re-take, may be wise to work for a yr and spread your apps a little more.

Out of the two though, definitely Wake. Those employment numbers at W&L are awful.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:43 am

froglee wrote:
YankeesFan wrote:
froglee wrote:
All of those schools you listed have terrible employment outcomes. Not to go is the most constructive advice I can think of, but you already rejected it.


Wake gives him a solid shot at legal employment at minimal debt levels (although OP, you need to get them to match W&L's offer).



http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake&show=ABA

Nope. It does not. Out of its 2012 graduate class, 78% got full-time legal position. And we all know that a 35~36 years old is more likely to end up among that 22% than a 26 years old.

Only 3 people got public interest jobs, which OP just considers as a secondary option to pay back loans.

And 17% of its graduates found biglaw jobs(+100 firms). I doubt OP has a shot in those firms given its age.

So how does Wake gives OP a solid shot at legel jobs?

66% is the score for full tome jd required, and about 17% of those are fewer than 10 attorneys.

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YankeesFan
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby YankeesFan » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:44 pm

froglee wrote:Nope. It does not. Out of its 2012 graduate class, 78% got full-time legal position. And we all know that a 35~36 years old is more likely to end up among that 22% than a 26 years old.


Then what the hell is a solid shot? GW's 88% (with 22% of that school funded), or UVa's like 96% (again with like 20% school funded). Having roughly a 70% shot is objectively a good, albeit not great, stat to work with, especially at a low debt level. But OP does have to realize hes likely going to be stuck in NC.
Last edited by YankeesFan on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:47 pm

YankeesFan wrote:
froglee wrote:Nope. It does not. Out of its 2012 graduate class, 78% got full-time legal position. And we all know that a 35~36 years old is more likely to end up among that 22% than a 26 years old.


Then what the hell is a solid shot? GW's 88% (with 22% of that school funded), or UVa's like 96% (again with like 20% school funded). Having a 3/4 shot is objectively a good, albeit not great, stat to work with, especially at a low debt level. But OP does have to realize hes likely going to be stuck in NC.

Once again, it's 66%, not 75. At least learn to read LST.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby shaynislegend » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:53 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:66% is the score for full tome jd required, and about 17% of those are fewer than 10 attorneys.


Genuine Question: What is wrong with firms with only 2-10 attorneys?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:00 pm

shaynislegend wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:66% is the score for full tome jd required, and about 17% of those are fewer than 10 attorneys.


Genuine Question: What is wrong with firms with only 2-10 attorneys?

Anecdotes suggest that they're normally either a bunch of grads coming together to hang their own shingle or total shitlaw. There are situations where they are boutique lit firms that pay market, but I doubt that's the case coming from WF.

However, the 66% figure counts those jobs. 66% of the class are in FULL TIME JD REQUIRED positions. Look at the first page of the school report. You only have a 66% shot of even being a lawyer, much less one with a decent income.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby shaynislegend » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:05 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:
shaynislegend wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:66% is the score for full tome jd required, and about 17% of those are fewer than 10 attorneys.


Genuine Question: What is wrong with firms with only 2-10 attorneys?

Anecdotes suggest that they're normally either a bunch of grads coming together to hang their own shingle or total shitlaw. There are situations where they are boutique lit firms that pay market, but I doubt that's the case coming from WF.

However, the 66% figure counts those jobs. 66% of the class are in FULL TIME JD REQUIRED positions. Look at the first page of the school report. You only have a 66% shot of even being a lawyer, much less one with a decent income.


Gotcha. I don't intend to steal this thread with a question and will move it to the appropriate place if need be, but can you provide some insight into this 66%. I know that it is based off of the 2012 classes, but to what end? Is this number based on at graduation numbers, 9 month graduation numbers, or current?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:10 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

It's the big number on the far left and it is based on the ABA report.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby shaynislegend » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:13 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

It's the big number on the far left and it is based on the ABA report.


I understand that, I guess what I am wondering is what is the ABA reporting that on? ex. If that number is 66% employed in those jobs at the time of graduation I would be less worried, if its 9 months after gradation (more worried) and if its current (considerably more worried).

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Rahviveh
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:32 pm

shaynislegend wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake

It's the big number on the far left and it is based on the ABA report.


I understand that, I guess what I am wondering is what is the ABA reporting that on? ex. If that number is 66% employed in those jobs at the time of graduation I would be less worried, if its 9 months after gradation (more worried) and if its current (considerably more worried).


All ABA data is for 9 months after graduation, to account for people taking the bar (since outside biglaw a lot of firms don't make offers until after you pass). You should read some of the articles on LST to get a good understanding of things.

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby shaynislegend » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:36 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:All ABA data is for 9 months after graduation, to account for people taking the bar (since outside biglaw a lot of firms don't make offers until after you pass). You should read some of the articles on LST to get a good understanding of things.


Awesome, thanks!

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rheannabanana
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby rheannabanana » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 pm

froglee wrote:I doubt OP has a shot in those firms given its age.


Whoa there. I am a girl, not an "it." :shock:

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rheannabanana
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby rheannabanana » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:02 pm

cm2015 wrote:OP, I know you said you have narrowed it down to these two but with a 165 these are far from your only two options. You said you have family in GA, what about Emory/UGA? With a 165 you could get money from both, or UNC for N Carolina jobs. Even if you don't re-take, may be wise to work for a yr and spread your apps a little more.

Out of the two though, definitely Wake. Those employment numbers at W&L are awful.


I am not pleased with W&L's numbers either, especially for a school that has, IMO, a decent ranking. I haven't had anyone offer any other convincing non-rankings-based feedback yet that W&L is otherwise superior, other than nice campus, etc. So, I may go with my gut and keep WF as my #1. :D

I opted for GA State rather than UGA and was waitlisted. I am in at FL State, but just got the invite to apply for scholarships yesterday, so I can't wait on them to make other decisions. I didn't apply to UNC because my 165 was from a February LSAT and I read they have to take 75% of admits from NC, leaving out of state applicants at a disadvantage already. In hindsight, maybe I should have applied there anyway.

I did send applications to a lot of schools in the west/mountain region, but was not generally happy with my scholarships--they weren't large enough to make schools with lower rankings and poor employment prospects truly enticing. I tried negotiating, but some schools just didn't have the funds, some were like talking to a brick wall, and others could only give me what I needed with stipulations I couldn't agree to. I still haven't even heard back from others, like UC Irvine or Loyola.

The schools I chose further east, I chose because I liked the programs, the faculty, their reputations. Of those, my best scholarship offers came from WF, W&L, and Tulane. Schools that offered me sticker were immediately off the table because I won't take out private loans that I'm not sure I can pay back on time.

If I could work for a year, and retake, I might. But I've been unemployed or underemployed for literally years and there are no jobs in the dirt road town I'm living in. As for spreading out my apps, I applied to 20 schools this cycle--reaches, targets, and safeties--so I don't think that was an issue. Overkill, maybe. But I wanted to make sure I'd have options! 8)

This process has been driving me crazy, probably BECAUSE I applied to so many schools, and I would love to be able to make a decision soon and start enjoying my last summer of freedom for pretty much forever...

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shaynislegend
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby shaynislegend » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:38 pm

Why not retake June? Retaking June could boost your scholarship at schools in which you have already applied OR if you do tremendous 170+ it will help you justify taking another year off and working at Burger King. If you get a 120 on the June LSAT what are they going to do? Nothing. Re-take in June.

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rheannabanana
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby rheannabanana » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:59 pm

shaynislegend wrote:Why not retake June? Retaking June could boost your scholarship at schools in which you have already applied OR if you do tremendous 170+ it will help you justify taking another year off and working at Burger King. If you get a 120 on the June LSAT what are they going to do? Nothing. Re-take in June.


I honestly hadn't thought of retaking in June.

I can't even get a job at Burger King, so I don't know if it will in any way make waiting another year feasible, but it may convince my choice school(s) that increasing my scholarship is a good move. Definitely something to think about.

jayman12
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby jayman12 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:52 pm

Tekrul wrote:As you have adjusted your schedule to wake earlier now, then you are also in a good position to mock take the LSAT like real conditions early in the morning. I would role play the actual exam. Get into a small chair, bring your ziploc with all the stuff inside (ticket, pencils, erasers, etc) and take the test at exactly the same time the real thing would be. Practice that way and then crush the test on your next retake.

Did this current retake increase the quality of your cycle? I bet it did, and you can bet cash money that a good third retake will increase it again. You say you froze on the test. That means you can do better. That means you should take it again.

Edit: it seems like you're not living with the guy that put your test taking prep and test day mentality under duress. As it seems, you are getting by, and you can improve your score given you are working on the factors that were hurting it.


I'd say Wake, but 3 years in WS in your mid-thirties can be rough.

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rheannabanana
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby rheannabanana » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:01 pm

jayman12 wrote:
I'd say Wake, but 3 years in WS in your mid-thirties can be rough.


Please elaborate.
(I'm legitimately curious.)

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InBetweenDays
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Re: Wake Forest or W&L or...?

Postby InBetweenDays » Mon May 13, 2013 2:06 pm

framboozer wrote:
IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:
framboozer wrote:With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

The idea that there is any meaningful difference between these schools for out of state applicants is enormous, retarded flame. Stop.


Cool your lid. It appears you migrated to this thread because of Wake Forest. Historically UNC is solidly above Wake Forest in employment in NC and it's not a flame to point that out. Admittedly they closed the gap in placement this year, but hell last year Campbell had a better employment score than Wake. OP doesn't appear to be trying to take the degree back to the west coast, which she said she's sick of, so logically she would be trying to work in NC or VA with those options. How is it a flame to point out that there are better schools in the same markets that numbers-wise should have been on the table for her, even OOS? She is both under-performing her numbers.

Also have you not seen W&L's job stats? They are scary bad. W&M did MUCH better. Bottom line: OOS there may not be as big a difference between UNC and Wake but there is a big difference between W&M and W&L.


W&M's employment statistics are awful when one factors out the university funded, JD-required job positions...




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