Top Law Schools

Okay, I think I'm getting closer to narrowing down my choices, but I am beyond overwhelmed and would love some outside input.

Important Numbers

Right now, I think my top two choices are Wake Forest ($30k/yr) and W&L ($35k/yr).
My WF scholly has no stips other than don't fail out of school, and W&L only requires I stay in the top 70%.

I will be taking out Stafford loans to cover COL expenses and paying for the rest out of pocket; I do not qualify for PLUS loans (long story, can't fix before LS).

My LSAC GPA is ~3.5; high LSAT is 165. (Up from a 158 cold score; no, I will not retake again).

Extra Details

I'm a nontraditional age student (32), and am going to LS because it's a legitimate interest of mine, not because I am under the misconception that I will graduate and get rich working for "The Firm." That said, I would like to find some sort of legal job after 3 years of LS.

I have no ties to either area, but am basically super sick of the west coast and it is time for a change. (FWIW, I haven't stayed put long enough to have any professional ties out here either.) I do have family in the FL/GA areas so I can go home for holidays/breaks if needed.

Other schools I haven't completely ruled out yet: Chapman (full tuition scholly), Tulane ($35k/yr).
Other schools I am waiting for scholarship info from: Florida State and Lewis & Clark
Other schools I haven't even received a decision from yet (damn you, schools!): UC Irvine and Loyola (I'm living in so cal now)

I'm going to leave out my own opinions on the schools for now because I want to hear other opinions and not just "it sounds like you want..."

Thanks in advance!

Visit both. Go to whichever one you like best.

Caveat: If you choose W&L, get them to drop that stip before you commit. If you choose Wake, get them to match the W&L scholarship offer.

wake forest, nicer campus, nicer surroundings, helpful admin staff and great faculty

With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

Is there any chance Wake Forest would match Tulane or W&L? Couldn't hurt to try asking. They are all in the same range... W&L a few spots higher, Tulane a few spots lower.

Of those options, I think Wake Forest is the better choice and at that discounted price a really solid option.

Guess what you should do? Retake.

Anyway, it depends on where you want to work. Neither degree is very portable, so choose wisely.

Wait a second, you said you want to be a lawyer at graduation? That changes things:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

One gives a 1 in 3 chance of NOT being a lawyer, while the other gives a coin-flip chance. Meanwhile, 4 to 5 more points on the LSAT opens up UVA, Cornell, NU, Duke, Michigan, GULC, and a few more points on top of that may open up NYU, Chicago, and Columbia. It's not about money, it's about getting a job period.

Noodley is right. With a 158 cold score you should be breaking 170 easily.

W&L's stats on law school transparency have had me worried, although I know little about their history or any factors that may make them a good (or not-so-good) school.

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:Visit both. Go to whichever one you like best.

Caveat: If you choose W&L, get them to drop that stip before you commit. If you choose Wake, get them to match the W&L scholarship offer.

Reasonable advice, thank you. Sadly, I can't get a visit in before W&L's massive seat deposit is due in a few days, as I just got my acceptance/scholly info this week. Ugh.

framboozer wrote:With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

Something about W&M just didn't appeal to me, and I actually didn't apply to UNC because I didn't think my chances were very good. I only applied to a handful of east coast schools (my family on my father's side is out there), instead concentrating on the west coast schools (where I live now). But, the west coast schools hate me and are not being nearly as generous with admission or scholarships.

ha-ri wrote:Is there any chance Wake Forest would match Tulane or W&L? Couldn't hurt to try asking. They are all in the same range... W&L a few spots higher, Tulane a few spots lower.

Of those options, I think Wake Forest is the better choice and at that discounted price a really solid option.

This was actually my line of thinking when I posted this and I may just go with it.

NoodleyOne wrote:Wait a second, you said you want to be a lawyer at graduation? That changes things:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wake
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

One gives a 1 in 3 chance of NOT being a lawyer, while the other gives a coin-flip chance. Meanwhile, 4 to 5 more points on the LSAT opens up UVA, Cornell, NU, Duke, Michigan, GULC, and a few more points on top of that may open up NYU, Chicago, and Columbia. It's not about money, it's about getting a job period.

The LST reports are one of the main reasons I'm leaning toward WF, but I guess I was hoping to find out if there were any other factors that might sway me one way or another. I've had positive experiences with both admissions offices, prospective students, alums, etc. from both schools.

NoodleyOne wrote:Guess what you should do? Retake.

Anyway, it depends on where you want to work. Neither degree is very portable, so choose wisely.

WokeUpInACar wrote:Noodley is right. With a 158 cold score you should be breaking 170 easily.

Guys, I said I'm not retaking. Before my first retake, TLS nearly made me want to jump off of a bridge for even thinking of going to a TTT school and I really do not want to discuss it again. I am happy with my score improvement and my current school prospects, especially compared to my previous options.

The only thing that I believe would even improve my score would be formal logic games training/tutoring, which I absolutely cannot afford. I've self-studied myself blue in the face already, but still froze when I sat for my retake. Maybe I have issues with standardized testing; I don't know. I definitely have issues with anxiety and early mornings both, so the LSAT is pretty much my worst nightmare.

It's also not financially feasible for me to wait another year (I've already waited two) and try and study more and retake because of my current job situation. If I start this fall, I will still have some savings left and have family that is willing to help me out. My family supports me going to law school to get me out of the hole I've dug myself into after everyone talked me out of attending the first time.

If I don't get a job after graduation, I'm in no worse of a spot than I'm in now. My IBR payment is currently $0 and it will remain $0. Maybe I'll pay off my loans before I retire, maybe I won't. I will do my best, but I can assure you that looking at my debt load will not trigger an existential crisis or anything of the sort. I know this is not a popular opinion around here, but it's mine.

Sorry if I sound overly defensive, but I hope you'll understand that I am fully aware of the opportunity for a retake and am making a well thought out decision not to take it. While the typical TLS onslaught of "retake! retake!" may be well-meaning, it is not the best option for everyone, all the time.

I do appreciate any and all constructive input related to my actual question. Thanks again.

I'm going to tell you a secret: Admissions offices are trying to get you to come to their school. As a result, they tend to be pretty nice to you. Basing your decision off of that, or any other nebulous factor is silly. The fact is, at W&L, even if you're one of the 50% to become a lawyer, you have a 10 in 64 chance of basically hanging your own shingle (10 or fewer attorneys), or if you're one of the lucky 2/3rds who get a job as a lawyer from WF, you have a 20 in 122 chance of hanging your own (2 solo, 17 10 or fewer, 1 unknown). So if you're lucky to even BECOME a lawyer from these schools, you still have a 1 in 6 chance of chasing ambulances on your moped and hanging outside of the drunk tank hoping to catch a DUI case.

OR:

You could retake, get a high score (my diag was 158 as well), and have better options with good $$$.

rheannabanana wrote:

NoodleyOne wrote:Guess what you should do? Retake.

Anyway, it depends on where you want to work. Neither degree is very portable, so choose wisely.

WokeUpInACar wrote:Noodley is right. With a 158 cold score you should be breaking 170 easily.

Guys, I said I'm not retaking. Before my first retake, TLS nearly made me want to jump off of a bridge for even thinking of going to a TTT school and I really do not want to discuss it again. I am happy with my score improvement and my current school prospects, especially compared to my previous options.

The only thing that I believe would even improve my score would be formal logic games training/tutoring, which I absolutely cannot afford. I've self-studied myself blue in the face already, but still froze when I sat for my retake. Maybe I have issues with standardized testing; I don't know. I definitely have issues with anxiety and early mornings both, so the LSAT is pretty much my worst nightmare.

It's also not financially feasible for me to wait another year (I've already waited two) and try and study more and retake because of my current job situation. If I start this fall, I will still have some savings left and have family that is willing to help me out. My family supports me going to law school to get me out of the hole I've dug myself into after everyone talked me out of attending the first time.

If I don't get a job after graduation, I'm in no worse of a spot than I'm in now. My IBR payment is currently $0 and it will remain $0. Maybe I'll pay off my loans before I retire, maybe I won't. I will do my best, but I can assure you that looking at my debt load will not trigger an existential crisis or anything of the sort. I know this is not a popular opinion around here, but it's mine.

Sorry if I sound overly defensive, but I hope you'll understand that I am fully aware of the opportunity for a retake and am making a well thought out decision not to take it. While the typical TLS onslaught of "retake! retake!" may be well-meaning, it is not the best option for everyone, all the time.

I do appreciate any and all constructive input related to my actual question. Thanks again.

Well luckily for you, Law School exams aren't stressful at all. You'll be fine.

NoodleyOne wrote: You could retake, get a high score (my diag was 158 as well), and have better options with good $$$.

If I had more time and/or more money, I might consider it. But I don't, so I'm not. I'm happy for you that you were able to increase your score and go to a better school than I will be attending, but I'm not trying to be you. I'm just trying to do what's best for me within the limitations of my current situation.

NoodleyOne wrote: Well luckily for you, Law School exams aren't stressful at all. You'll be fine.

Another reason why I don't want to be you. This is not constructive in the least. If I were you, I'd be more worried about your terrible attitude getting in the way of your success than my hatred of early morning fill-in-the-bubble tests getting in the way of mine.

framboozer wrote:With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

The idea that there is any meaningful difference between these schools for out of state applicants is enormous, retarded flame. Stop.

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:

framboozer wrote:With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

The idea that there is any meaningful difference between these schools for out of state applicants is enormous, retarded flame. Stop.

Cool your lid. It appears you migrated to this thread because of Wake Forest. Historically UNC is solidly above Wake Forest in employment in NC and it's not a flame to point that out. Admittedly they closed the gap in placement this year, but hell last year Campbell had a better employment score than Wake. OP doesn't appear to be trying to take the degree back to the west coast, which she said she's sick of, so logically she would be trying to work in NC or VA with those options. How is it a flame to point out that there are better schools in the same markets that numbers-wise should have been on the table for her, even OOS? She is both under-performing her numbers.

Also have you not seen W&L's job stats? They are scary bad. W&M did MUCH better. Bottom line: OOS there may not be as big a difference between UNC and Wake but there is a big difference between W&M and W&L.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl

Flame is telling OP to negotiate a top 70% stip off the W&L scholarship. With OP being an outsider to the market and W&L's less than 50% employment rate, she would need all the encouragement she could get to drop out.

For your goals I think Wake is a good fit. Even without a scholly increase the money is good, the career prospects are good (as long as you aren't below 50% and aspie). You don't want BigLaw, nor would you really need it for your debt load. As long as your happy with mid-size, small firms and govt./pi in Western NC (and to a lesser extent Raleigh), then I think you would be making the right choice.

YankeesFan wrote:For your goals I think Wake is a good fit. Even without a scholly increase the money is good, the career prospects are good (as long as you aren't below 50% and aspie). You don't want BigLaw, nor would you really need it for your debt load. As long as your happy with mid-size, small firms and govt./pi in Western NC (and to a lesser extent Raleigh), then I think you would be making the right choice.

There was a time when I may have wanted BigLaw, but not anymore because, hello, OLD.

Gov't/PI is right up my alley, and I don't see any problem staying within the top 50% of my class (at least). I honestly feel like if I get to law school and (barring any major personal complications) don't perform that well, I may just cut my losses and move on. I don't want to be out in this market as a graduate at the bottom of my class. Yikes.

framboozer wrote:

IrwinM.Fletcher wrote:

framboozer wrote:With those options I feel like your choices should be better. No UNC or W&M? W&L's placement was really bad this year. If you want a job, don't go there. W&F performed way better than usual and way better than W&L. No possibility of convincing WF to give you a full ride?

The idea that there is any meaningful difference between these schools for out of state applicants is enormous, retarded flame. Stop.

Cool your lid. It appears you migrated to this thread because of Wake Forest. Historically UNC is solidly above Wake Forest in employment in NC and it's not a flame to point that out. Admittedly they closed the gap in placement this year, but hell last year Campbell had a better employment score than Wake. OP doesn't appear to be trying to take the degree back to the west coast, which she said she's sick of, so logically she would be trying to work in NC or VA with those options. How is it a flame to point out that there are better schools in the same markets that numbers-wise should have been on the table for her, even OOS? She is both under-performing her numbers.

Also have you not seen W&L's job stats? They are scary bad. W&M did MUCH better. Bottom line: OOS there may not be as big a difference between UNC and Wake but there is a big difference between W&M and W&L.

You realize that 18.5% of the difference in the employment percentage between W&L and W&M is because more than 20% of W&M grads are in "university funded" positions, right? W&L reports 1.5% university funded positions. Without that piece of shit metric they are both a coin-flip for getting a job.

Give it up. Each of those 4 schools give you a 10-15% chance at big law and basically a 50% chance at being a lawyer if you're out of state like OP. There is no appreciable difference.

rheannabanana wrote:

NoodleyOne wrote:Guess what you should do? Retake.

Anyway, it depends on where you want to work. Neither degree is very portable, so choose wisely.

WokeUpInACar wrote:Noodley is right. With a 158 cold score you should be breaking 170 easily.

Guys, I said I'm not retaking. Before my first retake, TLS nearly made me want to jump off of a bridge for even thinking of going to a TTT school and I really do not want to discuss it again. I am happy with my score improvement and my current school prospects, especially compared to my previous options.

The only thing that I believe would even improve my score would be formal logic games training/tutoring, which I absolutely cannot afford. I've self-studied myself blue in the face already, but still froze when I sat for my retake. Maybe I have issues with standardized testing; I don't know. I definitely have issues with anxiety and early mornings both, so the LSAT is pretty much my worst nightmare.

It's also not financially feasible for me to wait another year (I've already waited two) and try and study more and retake because of my current job situation. If I start this fall, I will still have some savings left and have family that is willing to help me out. My family supports me going to law school to get me out of the hole I've dug myself into after everyone talked me out of attending the first time.

If I don't get a job after graduation, I'm in no worse of a spot than I'm in now. My IBR payment is currently $0 and it will remain $0. Maybe I'll pay off my loans before I retire, maybe I won't. I will do my best, but I can assure you that looking at my debt load will not trigger an existential crisis or anything of the sort. I know this is not a popular opinion around here, but it's mine.

Sorry if I sound overly defensive, but I hope you'll understand that I am fully aware of the opportunity for a retake and am making a well thought out decision not to take it. While the typical TLS onslaught of "retake! retake!" may be well-meaning, it is not the best option for everyone, all the time.

I do appreciate any and all constructive input related to my actual question. Thanks again.

All of those schools you listed have terrible employment outcomes. Not to go is the most constructive advice I can think of, but you already rejected it.

You said that "If I don't get a job after graduation, I'm in no worse of a spot than I'm in now." Wrong! Dead wrong! Beside the money issue, you will waste 3 years in law school. And a JD does not look good on the resume to ANY non-legal employers. And you aren't even confident that you can pay back your loan.

I don't know what shithole you have dugg yourself into, but if you can't find a legal jobs after you graduate from those law school, that shithole will be even deeper.

You said you have waited two years for law school. So I assume you are 25 years old. Then when you get out of law school, you will be around 28 or 29 years old. If you can't get decent legal job(most of time biglaw,like it or not), you will be in a lot of trouble.

froglee wrote:
All of those schools you listed have terrible employment outcomes. Not to go is the most constructive advice I can think of, but you already rejected it.

As much as Im on the retake train I don't think it serves a purpose here. These aren't terrible schools. Wake at almost 70% chance your right isnt UVA, Duke or Harvard levels, but its not bad either, especially if he is willing to drop out if he slips below median. Its one thing to tell a 22 yr old right out of college to retake until he uses all his retakes up, but right now OP won't graduate until he is 35/36. Wake gives him a solid shot at legal employment at minimal debt levels (although OP, you need to get them to match W&L's offer).

Don't take the Chapman full-ride. They come with awful stipulations. 70% of students have their scholarships reduced or taken away. As for the other options, they are not too great, but WF seems to be outplacing W&L so I'd go there, but try to shake some more $$ out of them.

Also a few other things: how many people do you think believe that they will be in the bottom half of the class entering law school? It is like the 90% of Americans who think they are above average drivers and the 80% who believe they have above-average IQs. There is no reason to feel confident that you ill be above median. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But that feeling you have that you will is the same feeling every other person in your class has. If your comfort with this plan depends on confidence that you will be in the top half of the class, then you need to reevaluate. Next, if I were you, I'd decide now the cutoff rank below which you will drop out (like 'I'll drop out if I'm in the bottom 30%'). The reason for that is several cognitive biases (along with plain-old fear) will encourage you to not drop out even if you are in the bottom of the class in a year. If you decide ahead of time what your parameters are (I'd even recommend telling people close to you so that they can remind you), you at least won't be able to weasel your way out of dropping out by saying you aren't truly in the bottom of the class bc you are bottom 30% not bottom 20%.

Lastly, Noodley was being jerk-y about it, but law school is full of early mornings and exams that determine your entire fate (unlike law school admissions here at least your GPA matters, too). If you have undealt with test anxiety, law school is not the time to address that. At the very least you should be trying to figure this problem out ASAP if you are going in the fall. Many professors give multiple-choice tests, so don't expect only essay exams. The early mornings you will just have to deal with, but I would recommend getting on a schedule of getting up early at least a month or two before law school starts. Even if you don't have early classes assigned to you, you won't know that until close to when classes start, and frankly it is a waste of precious 1L time to sleep in aside from the odd day here and there...it is way easier to get up during the week if ou don't sleep in crazily late on the weekends.

froglee wrote: All of those schools you listed have terrible employment outcomes. Not to go is the most constructive advice I can think of, but you already rejected it.

You said that "If I don't get a job after graduation, I'm in no worse of a spot than I'm in now." Wrong! Dead wrong! Beside the money issue, you will waste 3 years in law school. And a JD does not look good on the resume to ANY non-legal employers. And you aren't even confident that you can pay back your loan.

I don't know what shithole you have dugg yourself into, but if you can't find a legal jobs after you graduate from those law school, that shithole will be even deeper.

You said you have waited two years for law school. So I assume you are 25 years old. Then when you get out of law school, you will be around 28 or 29 years old. If you can't get decent legal job(most of time biglaw,like it or not), you will be in a lot of trouble.

I hate that I spend 90% of my time on TLS having to defend my decision to go to law school, but I guess I'll bite.

I don't believe I can be in any worse of a spot than I am now. I lost my former career when I got married, so I went back to finish my BS after my divorce (long story), with plans for law school. I didn't go, and have just been struggling since, working minimum wage jobs when I can get them, burdening my friends and family. A few things have happened outside of my control that have made things even harder for me, financially and professionally, but now I'm back on stable ground, just unemployed and borderline bitter that I didn't attend law school the first time around. I considered other graduate studies as an option, mainly because of all the negative feedback I received about attending a lower ranked law school, but law school is honestly what I WANT to do, and I don't want to take out more loans to get a masters in something I already know I don't like from the get-go. I'm already 32 years old so I've had plenty of time to try other things, figure out a lot of what works and what doesn't for me, and adjust accordingly.

I wouldn't say I'm not confident I will pay back my loans, only that if I go into PI or another traditionally lower paying position, or am forced to take a grunt job because of the economy, I do have the option of keeping my loans on IBR until the remainder is forgiven in 10 or 25 years. Worst case scenario, of course, but I can still live with that.

somewhatwayward wrote:Don't take the Chapman full-ride. They come with awful stipulations. 70% of students have their scholarships reduced or taken away. As for the other options, they are not too great, but WF seems to be outplacing W&L so I'd go there, but try to shake some more $$ out of them.

Also a few other things: how many people do you think believe that they will be in the bottom half of the class entering law school? It is like the 90% of Americans who think they are above average drivers and the 80% who believe they have above-average IQs. There is no reason to feel confident that you ill be above median. Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But that feeling you have that you will is the same feeling every other person in your class has. If your comfort with this plan depends on confidence that you will be in the top half of the class, then you need to reevaluate. Next, if I were you, I'd decide now the cutoff rank below which you will drop out (like 'I'll drop out if I'm in the bottom 30%'). The reason for that is several cognitive biases (along with plain-old fear) will encourage you to not drop out even if you are in the bottom of the class in a year. If you decide ahead of time what your parameters are (I'd even recommend telling people close to you so that they can remind you), you at least won't be able to weasel your way out of dropping out by saying you aren't truly in the bottom of the class bc you are bottom 30% not bottom 20%.

Lastly, Noodley was being jerk-y about it, but law school is full of early mornings and exams that determine your entire fate (unlike law school admissions here at least your GPA matters, too). If you have undealt with test anxiety, law school is not the time to address that. At the very least you should be trying to figure this problem out ASAP if you are going in the fall. Many professors give multiple-choice tests, so don't expect only essay exams. The early mornings you will just have to deal with, but I would recommend getting on a schedule of getting up early at least a month or two before law school starts. Even if you don't have early classes assigned to you, you won't know that until close to when classes start, and frankly it is a waste of precious 1L time to sleep in aside from the odd day here and there...it is way easier to get up during the week if ou don't sleep in crazily late on the weekends.

I really don't think Chapman is the best option for me, considering the alternatives. My packet from them with scholarship stipulations is actually still in the mail, so I am not yet aware of the details, but if i have a 70% chance of having my scholly reduced or taken away then no thanks. I'm not completely risk averse, but I like to think I'm not crazy either.

Moving on, I fully appreciate the idea that 90% of students will not be in the top 10%, etc. I choose to have a positive attitude and anticipate that I will be at least in the top half of my class, hopefully even higher. That said, I have given a lot of thought to the fact that I may not be. I think your suggestion of choosing a cutoff point below which I would drop out is a good one. I think designating a couple a couple of close friends/family members to remind me of this when it is time, is even more important. I think that I'd probably set the threshold so that it at least somewhat correlates with the percentage of students that are finding jobs, assuming that as a general rule, those ranking higher in the class are those most likely to secure employment. If my school has a 65% employment rate, I want to be in the top 50%; if my school has a 50% employment rate, I want to be in the top 30%.

My comment about hating mornings was at least partially tongue-in-cheek--I really do hate mornings, but I can deal with them just fine. A combination of mornings, general anxiety, low confidence levels in my logic games abilities, and a million other things just made the LSAT really rough for me. I have always been a bit nervous test-taking, but have always managed to perform well other than on the damn LSAT! I'm working on keeping my nerves in check (I have come a long way already), and hope that I can keep calm enough to not let law school exams completely kill me.

I already get up a lot earlier in the mornings than I did when I took my test, so adjusting my schedule for law school should not be an issue. In the weeks leading up to my test I was having a hard time because I was living in a small home with someone who regularly stays up (and is loud) until 4am and beyond. Learning from this experience, I will be living alone at law school, at least for the first semester or year until I can gauge my coping abilities without added distractions.

Thank you for all the suggestions, and for not being a jackass about them. Much appreciated.

As you have adjusted your schedule to wake earlier now, then you are also in a good position to mock take the LSAT like real conditions early in the morning. I would role play the actual exam. Get into a small chair, bring your ziploc with all the stuff inside (ticket, pencils, erasers, etc) and take the test at exactly the same time the real thing would be. Practice that way and then crush the test on your next retake.

Did this current retake increase the quality of your cycle? I bet it did, and you can bet cash money that a good third retake will increase it again. You say you froze on the test. That means you can do better. That means you should take it again.

Edit: it seems like you're not living with the guy that put your test taking prep and test day mentality under duress. As it seems, you are getting by, and you can improve your score given you are working on the factors that were hurting it.