Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

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Florida2013
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Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Florida2013 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:51 pm

Is there a demonstrable reason to choose UF vs. FSU for someone paying in-state tuition and who wants to practice in Florida?

-UF is ranked #46, FSU is ranked #48 (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/law-rankings/page+2)

-Tuition at FSU is currently 1690 $ cheaper than at UF. Additionally, FSU has offered me a scholarship whereas UF has not.

-Ultimately, my COA at FSU would be approximately 20,000-30,000 $ less than at UF.

This gets discussed every year but I would still like to hear what people currently think about it. Personally I prefer Gainesville to Tallahassee, but for me whats really important is getting a job after law school.

Those who advocate UF claim that its better because of its alumni network and "prestige". Those who advocate FSU claim that being able to network and get internships in the state capital will help get a job.

I'm not trying to get into biglaw (please no T14 retake suggestions), just want to work in Florida. What is the realistic answer here?

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untar614
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby untar614 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:53 pm

I like Gainesville much more than Tally too, but for 20-30k less, FSU is definitely a better choice.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Ruxin1 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:55 pm

What is your total COA with interest for both?

qwertyboard
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby qwertyboard » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:06 pm

Retake apply to a t14




But seriously what exactly are you planing to do after graduation? Do you have a job lined up?

LST shows FSU is a bit better in terms of employment prospects than UF...

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=florida

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=fsu

Although you should know it's very risky to attend both schools even with half scholarship.

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untar614
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby untar614 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:16 pm

actually, yeah, that would still put FSU at about 100k COA, which is stil too much for them given their placement. If you can get them down below 75k then that's more manageable. Maybe a June retake could score you some more money from them.

Florida2013
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Florida2013 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:27 pm

Retake apply to a t14. But seriously what exactly are you planing to do after graduation? Do you have a job lined up?

I can't change my GPA, and I also can't spend the rest of my life retaking the LSAT. Eventually I'm going to have to be satisfied with what my score is. Sure, retaking the LSAT could mean a 5 point increase or maybe even more, but all that realistically means is that I will get to pay sticker at t14 and will have to wait an extra year before going to law school . What will that even offer me, a slightly better chance at acquiring a summer associate position, more firms at OCI, but for what? I'll most likely face tougher competition for jobs and end up taking on more debt than if I go to a state school.

I have no plans after graduation, nor do I have a job lined up. Is this something that is realistically expected of entering students? How are you supposed to have any kind of job lined up with no legal education already, simply based on the merit of some familial connection?

actually, yeah, that would still put FSU at about 100k COA, which is stil too much for them given their placement. If you can get them down below 75k then that's more manageable. Maybe a June retake could score you some more money from them.

Thanks for your input. What information are you using to determine a manageable COA? I'm curious why <75k would be acceptable but not 100k.

envisciguy
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby envisciguy » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:22 pm

If you really could increase your LSAT 5 points like you just mused in your hypo, you could probably go to either of your current options for close to free. But, if you're set on one of those two right now, I'd suggest FSU. UF might be marginally better, but I don't think it's $30,000 better.

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hephaestus
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby hephaestus » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:27 pm

Way too expensive for either school. Not telling you to retake and go to a T14, but you have to retake and get more $$$ to these schools.
How many years out of UG are you?

qwertyboard
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby qwertyboard » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:24 pm

Florida2013 wrote:
Retake apply to a t14. But seriously what exactly are you planing to do after graduation? Do you have a job lined up?

I can't change my GPA, and I also can't spend the rest of my life retaking the LSAT. Eventually I'm going to have to be satisfied with what my score is. Sure, retaking the LSAT could mean a 5 point increase or maybe even more, but all that realistically means is that I will get to pay sticker at t14 and will have to wait an extra year before going to law school . What will that even offer me, a slightly better chance at acquiring a summer associate position, more firms at OCI, but for what? I'll most likely face tougher competition for jobs and end up taking on more debt than if I go to a state school.

I have no plans after graduation, nor do I have a job lined up. Is this something that is realistically expected of entering students? How are you supposed to have any kind of job lined up with no legal education already, simply based on the merit of some familial connection?

actually, yeah, that would still put FSU at about 100k COA, which is stil too much for them given their placement. If you can get them down below 75k then that's more manageable. Maybe a June retake could score you some more money from them.

Thanks for your input. What information are you using to determine a manageable COA? I'm curious why <75k would be acceptable but not 100k.


Calm down man/woman we're trying to help. Having a job lined up is not something to be expected but it does happen. If you had one, it would drastically alter my (and probably others) opinion of what you should do.

I totally understand if you don't want biglaw, but if you take a huge amount of debt you will have to repay it at some point. If you don't want Biglaw your other options for employment are in government, clerkship, business, and public interest. None of this options will pay you enough to repay 100k+ of debt quickly and live comfortably at the same time. And the chances of landing a job in one of those areas are less than 50%.

How many times have you taken the LSAT? It seems to me you're not satisfied with your LSAT and you think you can achieve a better score. I suggest you don't live with the "what if" for the rest of you life.

Are you currently working? You could take a year off, save some money, retake the LSAT, and get more scholarship money. I know this totally sucks if you really want to start LS but it has to be done in order to improve the chances of a manageable outcome.

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untar614
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby untar614 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:58 pm

Florida2013 wrote:Thanks for your input. What information are you using to determine a manageable COA? I'm curious why <75k would be acceptable but not 100k.

Because getting market biglaw salary out of UF/FSU is unlikely. 60k is a reasonable expected starting salary. Having debt significantly more than your salary makes thing difficult unless both numbers are very high and you can live comfortably off a very small portion of your income. But with 60k, you pay 11k in taxes, leaving you 49k. Just the interest on 100k is over 7k per year. That leaves you under 42k. If you want to have a family, pay for a house and car, kids, you have very little left to pay off the principal. If your debt is only 70k, thats almost all Stafford loans (opposed to GradPLUS, which have higher interest), so thats about 3000 more dollars per year that could go toward the principal and would, relatively speaking, make a larger dent in it. Basically, its much less time you have to barely be able to afford things or put off starting a family. Maybe if you plan on being a single guy living in a studio for a long time, its not as big a deal.

qwertyboard
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby qwertyboard » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:27 pm

untar614 wrote:
Florida2013 wrote:Thanks for your input. What information are you using to determine a manageable COA? I'm curious why <75k would be acceptable but not 100k.

Because getting market biglaw salary out of UF/FSU is unlikely. 60k is a reasonable expected starting salary. Having debt significantly more than your salary makes thing difficult unless both numbers are very high and you can live comfortably off a very small portion of your income. But with 60k, you pay 11k in taxes, leaving you 49k. Just the interest on 100k is over 7k per year. That leaves you under 42k. If you want to have a family, pay for a house and car, kids, you have very little left to pay off the principal. If your debt is only 70k, thats almost all Stafford loans (opposed to GradPLUS, which have higher interest), so thats about 3000 more dollars per year that could go toward the principal and would, relatively speaking, make a larger dent in it. Basically, its much less time you have to barely be able to afford things or put off starting a family. Maybe if you plan on being a single guy living in a studio for a long time, its not as big a deal.


I have not done any further research on FSU non-biglaw starting salaries but I think 60k is actually one of the best non-biglaw scenarios you could have after LS. I think If you do get a job its more like in the 40-50k range.

Rasaus
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Rasaus » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:35 pm

I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.

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untar614
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby untar614 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:38 pm

qwertyboard wrote:
untar614 wrote:
Florida2013 wrote:Thanks for your input. What information are you using to determine a manageable COA? I'm curious why <75k would be acceptable but not 100k.

Because getting market biglaw salary out of UF/FSU is unlikely. 60k is a reasonable expected starting salary. Having debt significantly more than your salary makes thing difficult unless both numbers are very high and you can live comfortably off a very small portion of your income. But with 60k, you pay 11k in taxes, leaving you 49k. Just the interest on 100k is over 7k per year. That leaves you under 42k. If you want to have a family, pay for a house and car, kids, you have very little left to pay off the principal. If your debt is only 70k, thats almost all Stafford loans (opposed to GradPLUS, which have higher interest), so thats about 3000 more dollars per year that could go toward the principal and would, relatively speaking, make a larger dent in it. Basically, its much less time you have to barely be able to afford things or put off starting a family. Maybe if you plan on being a single guy living in a studio for a long time, its not as big a deal.


I have not done any further research on FSU non-biglaw starting salaries but I think 60k is actually one of the best non-biglaw scenarios you could have after LS. I think If you do get a job its more like in the 40-50k range.

LST has overall median salary in the low 50s and private practice around 60. UF's is actually higher - around 70k, but I believe may come at the drawback of having less local govt option to fall back on. But Keep in mind these are good results, meaning they are medians after removing those who are unemployed, and the salary reporting % arent super high, so they likely depend on you being decently above median.

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sublime
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby sublime » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:06 am

..

nebula666
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby nebula666 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:05 am

Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


89% is dismal?

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cahwc12
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby cahwc12 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:21 am

FSU is a better law school even though UF ostensibly has more "cred." You'll have a better time there, the class is smaller, and you have a huge potential in being a couple blocks from the capitol. It's relatively easy to make connections there, and that's why the employment numbers are better (and stacked in PI).

FSU is a better deal at equal cost, so getting an extra $20-30k makes this a no brainer.

The key to enjoying your time in Tallahassee is to live on the east side of town, where all the professors, politicians and smart grad students live.

sflyr2016
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby sflyr2016 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:35 am

Truth is they are peer schools and will not offer much more than the other. If there is a specific area of law that you think you may like and one offers more classes for that specialty, that would be something to consider. Ultimately, they are great schools in Florida, but Florida's legal market is in a bind. Neither has "prestige" but they have plenty of respect in the state. Personally, I would lean on FSU at this point to shave the cost of living. Also, something to consider is that kids that just missed t14's, or kids that got into t14's but did not want to pay sticker, end up taking a full ride to UF. I personally know two people who did so this year, so I would imagine UF will be much more competitive which is something to factor in as well. However, one pro to consider for UF is that their presence in South Florida is MUCH stronger than FSU's. Not saying that there aren't any seminole's here (there's plenty), but if you are considering South Florida just know that it will be majority UF/UM kids.

I wouldn't call either a "better" law school than the other. Each may carry a pro that the other may not for you. And the ranking is irrelevant b/w them.

Hope this helps.

rad lulz
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:12 am

Even FSU is way too expensive. Someone earlier said $75k. That's about what I'd do

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Mitch McDeere
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Mitch McDeere » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:18 am

Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


Bar passage rates should be totally irrelevant in OP's decision. The school itself does practically nothing to prepare you for the bar exam (that's all done through a bar prep course). The fact that FSU grads do well on the bar is really a testament to their own intelligence/exam-taking abilities, not the school's ability to prepare them.

That said, I'd take the money at FSU. Your prospects are going to be essentially the same coming out of either school, with a few differences (e.g., UF's slightly better placement in So. Fla. and biglaw, and FSU's slight advantage in PI jobs/networking abilities in the capital). 20-30k is not a small amount of money.

Full disclosure: As a 3L at FSU, I'm probably a little biased. But looking at this objectively, I still think FSU is the smart move here.

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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby North » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:24 am

OP, have you tried to negotiate with FSU for an increased scholarship award?

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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Rasaus » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:49 pm

nebula666 wrote:
Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


89% is dismal?


It is dismal considering out of 11 law schools in the state of Florida the "highest ranked one" had the 9th highest bar passage rate. In my book that is pretty dismal. Granted schools don't teach you how to pass the bar exam it comes down to individual students, the time and effort they put into prepping, etc. The bar exam is the only thing separating you from being an ACTUAL lawyer. You can have a degree from Harvard but if you don't pass the bar what's the point?

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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Ruxin1 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:50 pm

Rasaus wrote:
nebula666 wrote:
Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


89% is dismal?


It is dismal considering out of 11 law schools in the state of Florida the "highest ranked one" had the 9th highest bar passage rate. In my book that is pretty dismal. Granted schools don't teach you how to pass the bar exam it comes down to individual students, the time and effort they put into prepping, etc. The bar exam is the only thing separating you from being an ACTUAL lawyer. You can have a degree from Harvard but if you don't pass the bar what's the point?


Good thing most people pass in the Summer administration shithead.

nebula666
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby nebula666 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:12 pm

Rasaus wrote:
nebula666 wrote:
Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


89% is dismal?


It is dismal considering out of 11 law schools in the state of Florida the "highest ranked one" had the 9th highest bar passage rate. In my book that is pretty dismal. Granted schools don't teach you how to pass the bar exam it comes down to individual students, the time and effort they put into prepping, etc. The bar exam is the only thing separating you from being an ACTUAL lawyer. You can have a degree from Harvard but if you don't pass the bar what's the point?


UF was tied for #1 among the Florida law schools last year. I assume you are talking about the 16/22 who passed the last administration of the bar, which was where the 11th ranking came from.

I suggest you read more than headlines or take a basic statistics class. You can't judge the bar passage rate for 300 people on a sample of 22.

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North
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby North » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:34 pm

Why don't you guys get MAF about something more relevant to OP's decision, like quality of facilities? Did one of these LS's get a sick new mock trial room recently? Is that a representative sample?

OP:
North wrote:OP, have you tried to negotiate with FSU for an increased scholarship award?

Benjamin1987
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Re: Florida In-State: UF vs. FSU($)

Postby Benjamin1987 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:59 pm

nebula666 wrote:
Rasaus wrote:
nebula666 wrote:
Rasaus wrote:I think one of the biggest factors in choosing FSU over UF would be the fact that FSU has the highest bar passage rate in the state, and UF's numbers for 2012 were very dismal. Since your COA would also be lower attending FSU, I'd go with them. At the end of the day you want to stay in Florida, and earn decent money and I think a degree from FSU will do that for you.


89% is dismal?


It is dismal considering out of 11 law schools in the state of Florida the "highest ranked one" had the 9th highest bar passage rate. In my book that is pretty dismal. Granted schools don't teach you how to pass the bar exam it comes down to individual students, the time and effort they put into prepping, etc. The bar exam is the only thing separating you from being an ACTUAL lawyer. You can have a degree from Harvard but if you don't pass the bar what's the point?


UF was tied for #1 among the Florida law schools last year. I assume you are talking about the 16/22 who passed the last administration of the bar, which was where the 11th ranking came from.

I suggest you read more than headlines or take a basic statistics class. You can't judge the bar passage rate for 300 people on a sample of 22.


This + If OP were to base his decision on something as ridiculous as bar passage rates than nothing said on here is going to enlighten him/her. In the mean time, let the Seminoles hang on to their silly attenuated bragging rights.

FSU for government work; UF for everything else.




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