Michigan v. Penn Forum

[Rahviveh]

Her advice in response to my concern about debt was, 'oh, well with a biglaw job in NYC you'll be fine'. She didn't say Chicago or "secondary market". So clearly NYC biglaw is on Michigan's radar to the point where its their very first default advice (I never even said anything about wanting biglaw or to live on the east coast). The fact that Michigan can't place as many of its grads into this ostensibly debt-nullifying market as its peers directly contradicts with the language employed by the school and the pride of its admissions staff. Based on LST, a more accurate statement than the above might have been: "some marginal percentage of our students are able to secure biglaw jobs in new york paying market salary and that might allow you to pay off your ridiculous debt".

tl;dr, Your portrayal of self selection at Michigan runs against its own justification

Wow, that's horrendous. The admissions office at Michigan is probably the most dishonest in the T14. I don't know why people fall for their fake bullshit, especially after Campos exposed Dean Z last year.

[Micdiddy]

Her advice in response to my concern about debt was, 'oh, well with a biglaw job in NYC you'll be fine'. She didn't say Chicago or "secondary market". So clearly NYC biglaw is on Michigan's radar to the point where its their very first default advice (I never even said anything about wanting biglaw or to live on the east coast). The fact that Michigan can't place as many of its grads into this ostensibly debt-nullifying market as its peers directly contradicts with the language employed by the school and the pride of its admissions staff. Based on LST, a more accurate statement than the above might have been: "some marginal percentage of our students are able to secure biglaw jobs in new york paying market salary and that might allow you to pay off your ridiculous debt".

tl;dr, Your portrayal of self selection at Michigan runs against its own justification

Wow, that's horrendous. The admissions office at Michigan is probably the most dishonest in the T14. I don't know why people fall for their fake bullshit, especially after Campos exposed Dean Z last year.

Ooh, link? Not that I don't believe you, just curious because I liked Dean Z in my limited exposure to her.

[Rahviveh]

Her advice in response to my concern about debt was, 'oh, well with a biglaw job in NYC you'll be fine'. She didn't say Chicago or "secondary market". So clearly NYC biglaw is on Michigan's radar to the point where its their very first default advice (I never even said anything about wanting biglaw or to live on the east coast). The fact that Michigan can't place as many of its grads into this ostensibly debt-nullifying market as its peers directly contradicts with the language employed by the school and the pride of its admissions staff. Based on LST, a more accurate statement than the above might have been: "some marginal percentage of our students are able to secure biglaw jobs in new york paying market salary and that might allow you to pay off your ridiculous debt".

tl;dr, Your portrayal of self selection at Michigan runs against its own justification

Wow, that's horrendous. The admissions office at Michigan is probably the most dishonest in the T14. I don't know why people fall for their fake bullshit, especially after Campos exposed Dean Z last year.

Ooh, link? Not that I don't believe you, just curious because I liked Dean Z in my limited exposure to her.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eople.html

[michwolv]

Curious, which stats exactly show that it's hard to get to a secondary market you haven't been to from non-HYS schools? Or that it's hard to get NYC biglaw from Michigan? Objectivity is not my problem. Indeed, I can only speak objectively about one school. Just because my assessment differs from that of outsiders does not make it any less "objective." Nor am I looking to place my school up on a pedestal or trash talk any other. I am simply rebutting some of the off-base and inaccurate talking points from the TLS echo chamber for the benefit of prospective 1L's making a tough decision right now.

Your takeaway from my post should not be that it's all rainbows and butterflies in Ann Arbor. Law school is difficult, risky, and expensive. But the difference between the schools, as far as placement power for an individual student, is negligible. Any difference between peer schools is more likely attributable to self-selection. Let's use LST, a favorite here. 38% of Penn goes to NYC. Just 18% of Michigan goes to NYC. Even disregarding any PI-selection, that's your score differential right there. The vast majority of students at Michigan simply do not interview in New York, because they have no desire to be in New York. But New York also happens to be where most biglaw jobs are, so there will be an aggregate advantage for Penn in biglaw scores. More students at Michigan simply target markets where biglaw is tougher to crack or doesn't exist at all.

At Michigan, some students strike out, but for the most part, students who focus on NYC can find a job through OCI unless they are at the bottom of the class. And of course, self-selection cuts both ways. Michigan placed 13% of its grads in Illinois. Penn placed just 1.5%. Does this mean Michigan gives you a 9X better chance to get to Illinois? No, it doesn't. I would be shocked if a comparable student at Penn had a significantly harder time getting to Chicago than his Michigan counterpart.

Another 0L here, but one who has conversed at great length with various admissions officers and major firm hiring partners prior to making my final decision.

Michigan IS a great school. James Dean isn't denying that either. But referring to the bolded, here's an informative little note dropped from the dean of financial aid at Michigan in an email to me several months ago during scholarship negotiation. I made it clear over several emails I could not attend Michigan at that debt load, and she had this to say (among many other things):

If you feel like Michigan – for reasons of curricular strengths, or differences in the student body, or differences in job prospects, or differences in atmosphere and community – is the place you would prefer to be, then consider that our graduates confirm the top salaries in top firms in the top markets, and the debt becomes much less significant when balanced against, say, a New York firm salary of $140,000.

Her advice in response to my concern about debt was, 'oh, well with a biglaw job in NYC you'll be fine'. She didn't say Chicago or "secondary market". So clearly NYC biglaw is on Michigan's radar to the point where its their very first default advice (I never even said anything about wanting biglaw or to live on the east coast). The fact that Michigan can't place as many of its grads into this ostensibly debt-nullifying market as its peers directly contradicts with the language employed by the school and the pride of its admissions staff. Based on LST, a more accurate statement than the above might have been: "some marginal percentage of our students are able to secure biglaw jobs in new york paying market salary and that might allow you to pay off your ridiculous debt".

tl;dr, Your portrayal of self selection at Michigan runs against its own justification

I'm not sure how that contradicts what I said. The plurality of Michigan students do go to NYC. That is true for most national schools. It just so happens that the plurality at Michigan is much smaller than that at a school like Penn. It sounds like all she was saying in that e-mail is that, if debt is your only concern, don't worry so much because you can probably get a high-paying job in NYC if you want one. I don't think she is wrong.

[Nelson]

Her advice in response to my concern about debt was, 'oh, well with a biglaw job in NYC you'll be fine'. She didn't say Chicago or "secondary market". So clearly NYC biglaw is on Michigan's radar to the point where its their very first default advice (I never even said anything about wanting biglaw or to live on the east coast). The fact that Michigan can't place as many of its grads into this ostensibly debt-nullifying market as its peers directly contradicts with the language employed by the school and the pride of its admissions staff. Based on LST, a more accurate statement than the above might have been: "some marginal percentage of our students are able to secure biglaw jobs in new york paying market salary and that might allow you to pay off your ridiculous debt".

tl;dr, Your portrayal of self selection at Michigan runs against its own justification

Wow, that's horrendous. The admissions office at Michigan is probably the most dishonest in the T14. I don't know why people fall for their fake bullshit, especially after Campos exposed Dean Z last year.

Do you really think that this is unique to Michigan? This is what all law school administrations say.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

Sorry to keep on reviving this thread but I just come across a statistic that speaks quite well to the argument I have been making here.

Michigan, since 2006, has consistently sent a lower percentage of grads into big law. there was one year where they only sent 4 percentage pts less than the average of other top schools. But for the other 5 years, theyve sent 13/14 percentage pts less. This ranges over periods where Michigan was ranked 7 consistantly and pushing t6.

Still not arguing that Mich is worth the same as Penn if you want biglaw, but its really not nearly as far behind as TLS suggests.

So Michigan has been slipping for even longer than I realized? Sweet, this will give my anti-Michigan trolling even more of a punch.

What does USNWR ranking have to do with anything? Also, you need a source in regards to self-selection.

Yeah man, I read your post and that made Michigan seem even worse. Are you sure what you posted argues in favor of your conclusion?

But dude, why is it more reasonable to assume that all law students want exactly the same thing than to assume it varies considerably across peer schools? People who got into Penn in 2010 probably also got into Mich and UVA. Now, can't you see that student picking Penn if he wanted NYC, UVA if DC, Mich if Midwest. Or one school over another because it places better in X market for X job? That's what TLS preaches here and now, shouldn't you expect students 3 years ago to do the same? That's why

The absolution with which you clearly highly-educated people regard these biglaw/fed clerkship numbers is absurd. You should be smarter than this.

I'm not in the position to say to speak to this issue in any great detail but I can use common sense and conclude that, because all hearsay and anecdotes regarding these two schools support that much higher percent of Penn grads in 2012 wanted biglaw than did their Michigan counterparts, the placement power between Penn and Michigan is negligable at most

[JamesDean1955]

Are you suggesting that a Michigan student facing six figures in debt is going to not choose to go to NY biglaw if they strike out elsewhere? I think graduates are concerned with getting a job first, location is secondary. This can't possibly account for Michigan's poor placement.

If we define the aggregate of desirable job outcomes as Biglaw + Clerkships + PI, here is the breakdown for each school from LST:

Michigan
43.3% firm
8.5% clerkship
16% PI
67.8% total

Penn
66.7% firm
10.6% clerkship
5.2% PI
82.3% total

That is a 14.5% difference and by comparing totals the self selection argument is eliminated.

Let me guess, your next argument is "but Michigan has more students, the percentages are due to class size differences and are thus distorted."

Well, yes, of course they are due to class size differences, but nothing is being distorted. Smaller class sizes help, no doubt about that. The above percentages are roughly greater than or equal to the likelihood of one's chances at obtaining a "desirable" job outcome from a given school.

[sinfiery]

It's true the data is shit. Hopefully if we keep giving Michigan shit, they will give prospective students better data.

[Rahviveh]

It's true the data is shit. Hopefully if we keep giving Michigan shit, they will give prospective students better data.

In some ways they give the most detailed data. Last year they had a list of actual employers where Michigan grads work. Does anyone know if they released one for c/o 2012?

[michwolv]

Are you suggesting that a Michigan student facing six figures in debt is going to not choose to go to NY biglaw if they strike out elsewhere? I think graduates are concerned with getting a job first, location is secondary. This can't possibly account for Michigan's poor placement.

If we define the aggregate of desirable job outcomes as Biglaw + Clerkships + PI, here is the breakdown for each school from LST:

Michigan
43.3% firm
8.5% clerkship
16% PI
67.8% total

Penn
66.7% firm
10.6% clerkship
5.2% PI
82.3% total

That is a14.5% difference and by comparing totals the self selection argument is eliminated.

Let me guess, your next argument is "but Michigan has more students, the percentages are due to class size differences and are thus distorted."

Well, yes, of course they are due to class size differences, but nothing is being distorted. Smaller class sizes help, no doubt about that. The above percentages are roughly greater than or equal to the likelihood of one's chances at obtaining a "desirable" job outcome from a given school.

The bolded is your faulty premise, which you will understand once you actually go to law school. Like I said before, the vast majority of students do not focus on NYC at Michigan's OCI. That is just how it is.

[JamesDean1955]

^ Well if that's true, I have no sympathy for these students that get themselves $150k+ in debt and fail to find jobs because they will only work in specific locations. Rational people would not behave in this way. Smart financially minded people would be concerned with paying off their debt first, then work on moving to a place they enjoy/want to settle down.

ETA: And a very significant portion of Michigan's student body is comprised of students from the northeast/east coast. So it's not like everyone chooses Michigan because they want to work in the midwest. As someone posted earlier, Michigan boasts about being "a national school" that will place it's graduates anywhere. Most people choose Michigan expecting to stay for 3 years and then leave. Whether or not the fraudulent claims by the admissions personnel is Michigan specific or not, many incoming students will inevitably believe it. And pre-ITE, it was true.

[BigZuck]

Are you suggesting that a Michigan student facing six figures in debt is going to not choose to go to NY biglaw if they strike out elsewhere? I think graduates are concerned with getting a job first, location is secondary. This can't possibly account for Michigan's poor placement.

If we define the aggregate of desirable job outcomes as Biglaw + Clerkships + PI, here is the breakdown for each school from LST:

Michigan
43.3% firm
8.5% clerkship
16% PI
67.8% total

Penn
66.7% firm
10.6% clerkship
5.2% PI
82.3% total

That is a14.5% difference and by comparing totals the self selection argument is eliminated.

Let me guess, your next argument is "but Michigan has more students, the percentages are due to class size differences and are thus distorted."

Well, yes, of course they are due to class size differences, but nothing is being distorted. Smaller class sizes help, no doubt about that. The above percentages are roughly greater than or equal to the likelihood of one's chances at obtaining a "desirable" job outcome from a given school.

The bolded is your faulty premise, which you will understand once you actually go to law school. Like I said before, the vast majority of students do not focus on NYC at Michigan's OCI. That is just how it is.

So the students are failing the school at a greater rate at Michigan than they do at the rest of the T13?

[jbagelboy]

It sounds like all she was saying in that e-mail is that, if debt is your only concern, don't worry so much because you can probably get a high-paying job in NYC if you want one. I don't think she is wrong.

Your argument is circular. Your statement above is the very concept that posters have been drawing into question based on available data. You refute it by saying that Michigan students don't want to be in NYC anyway. The school comes back and says, your job in NYC will clear your massive debt; we say, this is not indicated by the same data you dismissed with the assumption NYC was not important; then you say the school is right, plenty of people go to NYC from Michigan, and then there people are again saying, okay, prove it! and you can't.

I won't make a conclusive statement either way because, as you love to point out, how BigZuck or I know, we're not there? Maybe its easy to get to NYC from Michigan AND 82% of Michigan grads hate new york -- but then why would the school itself jump to new york as a definitive example?

Also, you say "Probably". Gottschalk never conditioned it; she said, you can get the job.. if she had told me you can "probably" get the job I'd have a little more respect, but still, "probably" implies 50%+ chance. As referenced above, nowhere is that conclusion supported. So its really more like "maybe" you can get the job to pay off your debt.

[sinfiery]

^ Well if that's true, I have no sympathy for these students that get themselves $150k+ in debt and fail to find jobs because they will only work in specific locations. Rational people would not behave in this way. Smart financially minded people would be concerned with paying off their debt first, then working in a place they enjoy/want to settle down.

There are jobs outside those 3 categories but those jobs are too broad in the way they are defined so we are unsure if they are good outcomes or shitlaw or barrista. If we had more.specific salary data for students 1/3/10 years out, some self selection surveys going into OCI, debt to job numbers and probably a lot more metrics one should demand before paying $290,000 for something.


But we don't. So based on what we have, Michigan kinda sucks relatively speaking, but the data is trash absolutely speaking.

[michwolv]

^ Well if that's true, I have no sympathy for these students that get themselves $150k+ in debt and fail to find jobs because they will only work in specific locations. Rational people would not behave in this way. Smart financially minded people would be concerned with paying off their debt first, then work on moving to a place they enjoy/want to settle down.

Nobody is asking for your sympathy. I don't believe that was the point of this thread.

[JamesDean1955]

^ Well if that's true, I have no sympathy for these students that get themselves $150k+ in debt and fail to find jobs because they will only work in specific locations. Rational people would not behave in this way. Smart financially minded people would be concerned with paying off their debt first, then work on moving to a place they enjoy/want to settle down.

Nobody is asking for your sympathy. I don't believe that was the point of this thread.

It's a saying. Try and keep up there chief.

[JamesDean1955]

^ Well if that's true, I have no sympathy for these students that get themselves $150k+ in debt and fail to find jobs because they will only work in specific locations. Rational people would not behave in this way. Smart financially minded people would be concerned with paying off their debt first, then working in a place they enjoy/want to settle down.

There are jobs outside those 3 categories but those jobs are too broad in the way they are defined so we are unsure if they are good outcomes or shitlaw or barrista. If we had more.specific salary data for students 1/3/10 years out, some self selection surveys going into OCI, debt to job numbers and probably a lot more metrics one should demand before paying $290,000 for something.


But we don't. So based on what we have, Michigan kinda sucks relatively speaking, but the data is trash absolutely speaking.

Yes, but we've already accounted for 67.8% and 82.8% of the classes of Michigan and Penn, respectively. Consulting gigs and midlaw $100k+ jobs and any of those broad categories (that would be desirable and, more importantly, would allow one to pay off their debt) that you're referring to are scarce from any school, even HYS. Should we focus only on these statistics? No of course not. But going by the data available is the most conservative objective measure we have for now. Denying that they have value is not TCR.

[dsn32]

OP here. FWIW, I was really on the fence about this decision up until the deadline on 5/1. The day before, I wanted to talk to career services and admissions at each school to get my questions answered and just get a feel for which school was going to take my needs as a student into account and tailor my job search toward my specific desires.

Penn won this battle easily. Heather in career services gave my specific examples of students like me and how they helped each person achieve their goals. Dean Post was very honest with me in all of her answers, even if they weren't exactly what I wanted to hear. They treated me like an equal, an adult, and I appreciated that.

Michigan on the other hand was horrendous. Dean Z basically talked down to me over the phone and told me my concerns were wrong (I don't see how an opinion can be wrong, but she was adamant that it was). Every time I brought up concerns about specific aspects of the school, they just insisted on me looking at the data on their website (stuff I've seen 1000x). I don't want to bash Michigan too badly on here, but I do want prospective students to know how bad of an experience I had with them. As I stated earlier in this thread, Michigan was my default from day one (born and raised in MI). After my interactions with them this cycle, there was no way I felt comfortable investing in their degree.

If anyone wants more specifics, feel free to PM me, but I refuse to publicly bash Michigan because I do know that my experience may have been unique.

[JamesDean1955]

OP here. FWIW, I was really on the fence about this decision up until the deadline on 5/1. The day before, I wanted to talk to career services and admissions at each school to get my questions answered and just get a feel for which school was going to take my needs as a student into account and tailor my job search toward my specific desires.

Penn won this battle easily. Heather in career services gave my specific examples of students like me and how they helped each person achieve their goals. Dean Post was very honest with me in all of her answers, even if they weren't exactly what I wanted to hear. They treated me like an equal, an adult, and I appreciated that.

Michigan on the other hand was horrendous. Dean Z basically talked down to me over the phone and told me my concerns were wrong (I don't see how an opinion can be wrong, but she was adamant that it was). Every time I brought up concerns about specific aspects of the school, they just insisted on me looking at the data on their website (stuff I've seen 1000x). I don't want to bash Michigan too badly on here, but I do want prospective students to know how bad of an experience I had with them. As I stated earlier in this thread, Michigan was my default from day one (born and raised in MI). After my interactions with them this cycle, there was no way I felt comfortable investing in their degree.

If anyone wants more specifics, feel free to PM me, but I refuse to publicly bash Michigan because I do know that my experience may have been unique.

I swear I'm not trying to Michigan bash here, but this was exactly my experience from speaking with them at ASW vs. speaking with Penn faculty at their ASW. Students at both schools seemed equally smart and capable. But I do not believe these schools are currently "peers" when it comes to job placement ability due to the faculty/administration.

[Micdiddy]

OP here. FWIW, I was really on the fence about this decision up until the deadline on 5/1. The day before, I wanted to talk to career services and admissions at each school to get my questions answered and just get a feel for which school was going to take my needs as a student into account and tailor my job search toward my specific desires.

Penn won this battle easily. Heather in career services gave my specific examples of students like me and how they helped each person achieve their goals. Dean Post was very honest with me in all of her answers, even if they weren't exactly what I wanted to hear. They treated me like an equal, an adult, and I appreciated that.

Michigan on the other hand was horrendous. Dean Z basically talked down to me over the phone and told me my concerns were wrong (I don't see how an opinion can be wrong, but she was adamant that it was). Every time I brought up concerns about specific aspects of the school, they just insisted on me looking at the data on their website (stuff I've seen 1000x). I don't want to bash Michigan too badly on here, but I do want prospective students to know how bad of an experience I had with them. As I stated earlier in this thread, Michigan was my default from day one (born and raised in MI). After my interactions with them this cycle, there was no way I felt comfortable investing in their degree.

If anyone wants more specifics, feel free to PM me, but I refuse to publicly bash Michigan because I do know that my experience may have been unique.

You're very likely making the right choice. Congrats and good luck!

[Nelson]

ITT 0Ls try to rationalize their school choices before they even attend.

It's funny how which schools are hot on TLS changes each cycle. Last cycle it was Northwestern and Mich that were the darlings. How quickly things change.

These schools aren't viewed any differently by firms. No hiring partner is sitting around saying, "Gee I think I'll take this 3.3 from Penn instead of this one from Michigan because Michigan has lower LST stats."

[JamesDean1955]

ITT 0Ls try to rationalize their school choices before they even attend.

It's funny how which schools are hot on TLS changes each cycle. Last cycle it was Northwestern and Mich that were the darlings. How quickly things change.

These schools aren't viewed any differently by firms. No hiring partner is sitting around saying, "Gee I think I'll take this 3.3 from Penn instead of this one from Michigan because Michigan has lower LST stats."

I guess time will tell. Fortunately, I also picked my school choice based on a variety of factors, and it wasn't even close to being a difficult decision placement ability notwithstanding.

All T14 schools are great choices.

Except GeorgeTTTown.

[jbagelboy]

ITT 0Ls try to rationalize their school choices before they even attend.

It's funny how which schools are hot on TLS changes each cycle. Last cycle it was Northwestern and Mich that were the darlings. How quickly things change.

These schools aren't viewed any differently by firms. No hiring partner is sitting around saying, "Gee I think I'll take this 3.3 from Penn instead of this one from Michigan because Michigan has lower LST stats."

lol here's to hoping none of us get a 3.3 anywhere. even an 0L can see your fucked sideways with shit grades wherever you land

[michwolv]

It sounds like all she was saying in that e-mail is that, if debt is your only concern, don't worry so much because you can probably get a high-paying job in NYC if you want one. I don't think she is wrong.

Your argument is circular. Your statement above is the very concept that posters have been drawing into question based on available data. You refute it by saying that Michigan students don't want to be in NYC anyway. The school comes back and says, your job in NYC will clear your massive debt; we say, this is not indicated by the same data you dismissed with the assumption NYC was not important; then you say the school is right, plenty of people go to NYC from Michigan, and then there people are again saying, okay, prove it! and you can't.

I won't make a conclusive statement either way because, as you love to point out, how BigZuck or I know, we're not there? Maybe its easy to get to NYC from Michigan AND 82% of Michigan grads hate new york -- but then why would the school itself jump to new york as a definitive example?

Also, you say "Probably". Gottschalk never conditioned it; she said, you can get the job.. if she had told me you can "probably" get the job I'd have a little more respect, but still, "probably" implies 50%+ chance. As referenced above, nowhere is that conclusion supported. So its really more like "maybe" you can get the job to pay off your debt.

My argument is not circular. Try to follow:

1) Most Michigan students do not focus on NYC
2) Those that do are generally able to find work there.
3) If the above poster's only goal is a high-paying job irrespective of location, she should focus on NYC.
4) The above poster has a high likelihood of finding work in NYC.

Premises 1 & 2 are the keys here, but are not really measurable through LST. The counter-argument is far more problematic. It goes like this:

1) A lower percentage of Michigan students work in Biglaw, which is primarily based in NYC.
2) Therefore, a lower percentage of Michigan students are capable of finding work in Biglaw.

The missing premise is the percentage of the class that is seeking jobs in NYC. Without this premise, the same argument can be used to elevate Penn above Yale.

Edit: I agree that it is unethical for law school administrators to be at all misleading when it comes to job placement. Gottschalk's adcomm should have chosen her words more carefully.

[JamesDean1955]

ITT 0Ls try to rationalize their school choices before they even attend.

It's funny how which schools are hot on TLS changes each cycle. Last cycle it was Northwestern and Mich that were the darlings. How quickly things change.

These schools aren't viewed any differently by firms. No hiring partner is sitting around saying, "Gee I think I'll take this 3.3 from Penn instead of this one from Michigan because Michigan has lower LST stats."

lol here's to hoping none of us get a 3.3 anywhere. even an 0L can see your fucked sideways with shit grades wherever you land

Isn't 3.3 a median at some T14s? I would sure hope being at median doesn't make one fucked lol.