T6 vs T10 vs T14

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LittleTree
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby LittleTree » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:56 pm

Twinkle, I've read a lot of your posts and followed your cycle closely because we've had some similar options. I wanna say that it's been really fun to read through your decision-making process but, as a lurker, this post made me wanna come in and offer a few words of advice.

I entirely understand that law school is a financial gamble and that you don't want to wake up thirty (or even just 2, after OCI) years from now thinking "well crap, I should have gone to X." What I wanted to jump in here to say is that all of your options are good. You should be proud of what you've accomplished and will accomplish but I think you're now making distinctions between schools that are far too minor.

I'm a 0L too but I really think that with the schools you're deciding between, your career is going to be determined by how well you do and that all of the schools you're really considering will provide you with opportunities that are close enough to each other in terms of prestige or pay that you should look to things other than rank or placement now. We like to pretend on here that law school is something that should be decided just by benefit-cost analysis but I'll argue to the day I die that there is still an intrinsic worth to an education. I think a lot of that worth will be determined by how happy you are at whatever school you end up at.

I know this may come across as emotional and you may feel that we just need to be looking at the hard facts now, but I really think you've gotten to a point where TLS or any other chat forum can't help you. You're gonna be fine at any of your choices and a few % points of placement or 3 USNWR rankings shouldn't be the deciding factor (I would say it should if the gap were wider). Don't you just have a feeling about one of these schools? Doesn't one of them stand out to you more than the other? Go somewhere where you could imagine spending three happy years because a median student from any option you have is gonna have very similar prospects. Also, take a second to pat yourself on the back because there are a lot of people making a lot worse decisions than you around this looming deposit deadline.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:00 pm

The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County. Median at Penn or UVA or Cornell is going to find it harder to do so-- and they really need to be looking at top-third with ties. This does not mean that Penn or NU will not approximate a T6 school in terms of total NLJ 250 placement. For example, Penn has been heroic in getting a huge percentage of its grads jobs in NYC. This might also be because its grads have more work experience in a market than loves work experience.

Another distinction might be top-4 for academic and AIII clerkship placement. I think BigGov might require different distinctions as well (aren't UVA and GU better at getting grads into government than Chicago or Columbia?)

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bruinfan10
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:05 pm

Sheffield wrote:Where is Mich rated these days? I thought they dropped out of the top 10. TLS has them at #10, but I think those are the older rankings.

Not that it matters, but: --LinkRemoved--.

SportsFan
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby SportsFan » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:06 pm

HYC/CCN/MVPB/DCNG distinctions only make sense from an admissions standpoint (especially, IMO, the T6 distinction). But for employment (and most other practical) purposes, its HYS vs. everyone else, which changes depending on your goals. If you want NYC biglaw, go to Columbia or Penn. If you want PI, go to NYU or Michigan. If you want to be in the midwest or Chicago, go to Chicago or Northwestern. And etc. Obviously, none of these are hard rules (they're stereotypes at best, really), but its the best way I can think of to say that these distinctions (beside HYS) don't mean much in terms of employment. You have to look at your situation individually and assess what the best option for yourself is.

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IAFG
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby IAFG » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:07 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County. Median at Penn or UVA or Cornell is going to find it harder to do so-- and they really need to be looking at top-third with ties. This does not mean that Penn or NU will not approximate a T6 school in terms of total NLJ 250 placement. For example, Penn has been heroic in getting a huge percentage of its grads jobs in NYC. This might also be because its grads have more work experience in a market than loves work experience.

I don't agree with this. I think T6 people struggle just as much to get into secondaries without ties and the big point of distinction is how far up the prestige ladder you can get with the same class rank.

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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby SportsFan » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:13 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County. Median at Penn or UVA or Cornell is going to find it harder to do so-- and they really need to be looking at top-third with ties. This does not mean that Penn or NU will not approximate a T6 school in terms of total NLJ 250 placement. For example, Penn has been heroic in getting a huge percentage of its grads jobs in NYC. This might also be because its grads have more work experience in a market than loves work experience.

Another distinction might be top-4 for academic and AIII clerkship placement. I think BigGov might require different distinctions as well (aren't UVA and GU better at getting grads into government than Chicago or Columbia?)

Unless you can cite any data to back this up, I think its an absurd claim. Secondary markets generally rely much more on ties and fit than grades (not that grades aren't important, but much less so than with the major markets like NYC etc.). If I want to work in an insular market like Seattle or Tampa, I'd rather be median at Penn or UVA or Cornell and have very strong ties there than top 1/3 at CCN with no ties.

Also, not to sound like I'm pro-Penn trolling (since I do go to Penn, but I'm not gonna sit here and argue T7 shit haha), but "only" 40% of the c/o 2012 went to NYC (and I think it was like 36% for c/o 2011). Saying "Penn has been heroic in getting a huge percentage of its grads jobs in NYC" just sounds a little weird to me haha.

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bruinfan10
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby bruinfan10 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:17 pm

LittleTree wrote:Twinkle, I've read a lot of your posts and followed your cycle closely because we've had some similar options. I wanna say that it's been really fun to read through your decision-making process but, as a lurker, this post made me wanna come in and offer a few words of advice.

I entirely understand that law school is a financial gamble and that you don't want to wake up thirty (or even just 2, after OCI) years from now thinking "well crap, I should have gone to X." What I wanted to jump in here to say is that all of your options are good. You should be proud of what you've accomplished and will accomplish but I think you're now making distinctions between schools that are far too minor.

I'm a 0L too but I really think that with the schools you're deciding between, your career is going to be determined by how well you do and that all of the schools you're really considering will provide you with opportunities that are close enough to each other in terms of prestige or pay that you should look to things other than rank or placement now. We like to pretend on here that law school is something that should be decided just by benefit-cost analysis but I'll argue to the day I die that there is still an intrinsic worth to an education. I think a lot of that worth will be determined by how happy you are at whatever school you end up at.

I know this may come across as emotional and you may feel that we just need to be looking at the hard facts now, but I really think you've gotten to a point where TLS or any other chat forum can't help you. You're gonna be fine at any of your choices and a few % points of placement or 3 USNWR rankings shouldn't be the deciding factor (I would say it should if the gap were wider). Don't you just have a feeling about one of these schools? Doesn't one of them stand out to you more than the other? Go somewhere where you could imagine spending three happy years because a median student from any option you have is gonna have very similar prospects. Also, take a second to pat yourself on the back because there are a lot of people making a lot worse decisions than you around this looming deposit deadline.

Sounds suspiciously like shitboomer advice to me. OP, you're doing the right thing by realizing that depending on your target market and goals, any number of these generally "homogeneous" lower-T14s might present dramatically different opportunities for you, and when you're planning on dropping 100k+, you're smart to sweat the small stuff.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:29 pm

My impression has always been that the T6 and arguably Penn will afford you a safer position to get biglaw from median or below. Somewhere to the tune of 10% more get biglaw as a percentage of the class. That and I guess more prestigious options like Iowa girl said.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Blessedassurance » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:30 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County.


keep telling yourself that.

how does leiter feel about the shootings at mit? they went for THE SCHOLARSHIP!

Mal Reynolds
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Mal Reynolds » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:19 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County.


keep telling yourself that.

how does leiter feel about the shootings at mit? they went for THE SCHOLARSHIP!


This is pretty messed up.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:20 pm

It is hard to answer this without knowing the schools and your goals. Like someone already said, taking Duke over Michigan is one thing while taking GT over Penn is quite another. These distinctions are often meaningless although I think Georgetown's placement has been bad enough recently that I can say objectively that it is T13, not T14.

However, the other schools in the T10-T13 rank, Cornell, NW, and Duke all have pretty impressive placement, and they often outplace the schools in the T7-T10 range. I really don't think there is a distinction in the T7-T13 (except I suppose Penn is a bit a above) unless you have specific goals that might be served by one school over another....like, if Mich really is better in PI (I don't know), then maybe you should go there over Duke if that is your goal even if it costs more although at a certain point, like if Duke was 50K+ cheaper, I'd probably say go with Duke. If you want big law. I'd take Duke over Mich at equal cost.

I have a vague memory that your choices are Berkeley and NW and you want CA (can't remember what type of law though). If it is like Berkeley at sticker v NW with a 50K-100K discount, that is a very hard decision. Berkeley obviously paces very well in CA, but I don't know that I could recommend it at full price unless you are independently wealthy. My guess is that NW could get you back to CA but that it would do that better in big law than in PI. For PI, it helps to be in the area you want to practice so that you can make connections there. You don't really need connections to get a big law job from any school with a robust OCI (although it can certainly help). They matter more for PI bc schools do little to help you get PI jobs. Of course if you go to NW, you could go to CA in the summers and do PI. Even though I don't know about NW-->CA placement, I would probably recommend it over Berkeley at sticker (or I would recommend not going or retaking). Berkeley at sticker is unwise.

BTW, if those aren't the schools you are considering, I'm sorry. Maybe someone else is considering them and will find this useful.....or not.

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Cobretti
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Cobretti » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:31 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:
LittleTree wrote:Twinkle, I've read a lot of your posts and followed your cycle closely because we've had some similar options. I wanna say that it's been really fun to read through your decision-making process but, as a lurker, this post made me wanna come in and offer a few words of advice.

I entirely understand that law school is a financial gamble and that you don't want to wake up thirty (or even just 2, after OCI) years from now thinking "well crap, I should have gone to X." What I wanted to jump in here to say is that all of your options are good. You should be proud of what you've accomplished and will accomplish but I think you're now making distinctions between schools that are far too minor.

I'm a 0L too but I really think that with the schools you're deciding between, your career is going to be determined by how well you do and that all of the schools you're really considering will provide you with opportunities that are close enough to each other in terms of prestige or pay that you should look to things other than rank or placement now. We like to pretend on here that law school is something that should be decided just by benefit-cost analysis but I'll argue to the day I die that there is still an intrinsic worth to an education. I think a lot of that worth will be determined by how happy you are at whatever school you end up at.

I know this may come across as emotional and you may feel that we just need to be looking at the hard facts now, but I really think you've gotten to a point where TLS or any other chat forum can't help you. You're gonna be fine at any of your choices and a few % points of placement or 3 USNWR rankings shouldn't be the deciding factor (I would say it should if the gap were wider). Don't you just have a feeling about one of these schools? Doesn't one of them stand out to you more than the other? Go somewhere where you could imagine spending three happy years because a median student from any option you have is gonna have very similar prospects. Also, take a second to pat yourself on the back because there are a lot of people making a lot worse decisions than you around this looming deposit deadline.

Sounds suspiciously like shitboomer advice to me. OP, you're doing the right thing by realizing that depending on your target market and goals, any number of these generally "homogeneous" lower-T14s might present dramatically different opportunities for you, and when you're planning on dropping 100k+, you're smart to sweat the small stuff.

I think LittleTree's point was that Twinkle has already done her due diligence, and has sufficiently sweated the small stuff. The point is if she has looked at all of that, and has been given the best advice TLS has to offer about her prospects, but still can't come up with a decision, then clearly all of her choices are very equivalent and she should go with her gut feeling at this point.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby rickgrimes69 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:32 pm

IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Duke is one of the cheapest options in the T14 and has solid placement stats. I probably wouldn't pay sticker (nor would I for any non HYS school) but I would definitely choose it above Michigan.

This mentality doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you pay full freight at HYS, you're going to be paying it back on a biglaw salary or some form of LRAP/forgiveness. If you pay full freight at a non-HYS T14... uh... ?


Mostly because HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14, making Biglaw less necessary. They also offer better opportunities in some fields, especially Clerkship / Academia placement, so HYS at sticker might be worth it for someone with lofty career goals.

TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County. Median at Penn or UVA or Cornell is going to find it harder to do so-- and they really need to be looking at top-third with ties.


This doesn't seem credited to me. I find it hard to believe that CCN will have any noticeable advantage in California placement over Boalt. Similarly, I can't see Florida employers seeing any tangible difference between Duke and UVA. Ties would seem to be much more important for secondary markets than which "sub-tier" your school is in.

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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Revolver066 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:40 pm

rad lulz wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:T10 is an utterly meaningless distinction. T6 slightly less so, but still pretty meaningless. If you're forced to make tiers it's simply HYS v. T13.

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Micdiddy
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Micdiddy » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:08 pm

Just go to Berkeley. There, you got confirmation. In 3 years when you are 260k in debt and asking "why on earth did I choose this?" You can blame Micdiddy :)

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FKASunny
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby FKASunny » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:09 pm

IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Duke is one of the cheapest options in the T14 and has solid placement stats. I probably wouldn't pay sticker (nor would I for any non HYS school) but I would definitely choose it above Michigan.

This mentality doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you pay full freight at HYS, you're going to be paying it back on a biglaw salary or some form of LRAP/forgiveness. If you pay full freight at a non-HYS T14... uh... ?


What about with this new-fangled PAYE thing? The 20 year forgiveness and ability to use it even if you earn butt tons of money makes it really appealing. I'm so happy my first loan was disbursed after that arbitrary deadline…

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TaipeiMort
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:57 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
Duke is one of the cheapest options in the T14 and has solid placement stats. I probably wouldn't pay sticker (nor would I for any non HYS school) but I would definitely choose it above Michigan.

This mentality doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If you pay full freight at HYS, you're going to be paying it back on a biglaw salary or some form of LRAP/forgiveness. If you pay full freight at a non-HYS T14... uh... ?


Mostly because HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14, making Biglaw less necessary. They also offer better opportunities in some fields, especially Clerkship / Academia placement, so HYS at sticker might be worth it for someone with lofty career goals.

TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County. Median at Penn or UVA or Cornell is going to find it harder to do so-- and they really need to be looking at top-third with ties.


This doesn't seem credited to me. I find it hard to believe that CCN will have any noticeable advantage in California placement over Boalt. Similarly, I can't see Florida employers seeing any tangible difference between Duke and UVA. Ties would seem to be much more important for secondary markets than which "sub-tier" your school is in.


Top-third Berkeley dominates in California placement. That is its home market. Places many more than Chicago or Columbia.

I was comparing the student at median at each school. Basically, each school has a margin of its students that are competitive. At CCN, this is manytimes median. At Penn, this is also median for the New York market, but is likely top-third for other markets like DC or Seattle. Jones Day NYC will likely look at Penn and Columbis students the same. However, the Denver office of Latham or whatever will look deeper into Columbia's class than they will into UVAs class. This is the difference.

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IAFG
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby IAFG » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:05 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14

Is that true? I have seen some T14 LRAPs that don't seem like they could really be improved upon.

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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Mal Reynolds » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:19 pm

IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14

Is that true? I have seen some T14 LRAPs that don't seem like they could really be improved upon.


Everyone has always said they're better because they're not tied to IBR. Although I don't know how this makes a difference.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:24 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County.


keep telling yourself that.

how does leiter feel about the shootings at mit? they went for THE SCHOLARSHIP!

Dude. Not cool.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:27 pm

IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14

Is that true? I have seen some T14 LRAPs that don't seem like they could really be improved upon.

Yale has the big advantage that it covers any type of job and is only linked to income. Harvard lets you go on and off whenever (Yale might too?). Also, the not being linked to IBR means you're actually making a dent in your principal (they're paying your loans on a 10 year repayment plan, or a 15-year for 5 years and then 5-year for the last 5 years at Yale) rather than just making your IBR payments. So, if you leave your LRAP job after 4 years, then you don't have a loan balance higher than when you started. I could be wrong about the nature of lower T14 LRAPs though.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:32 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14

Is that true? I have seen some T14 LRAPs that don't seem like they could really be improved upon.

Yale has the big advantage that it covers any type of job and is only linked to income. Harvard lets you go on and off whenever (Yale might too?). Also, the not being linked to IBR means you're actually making a dent in your principal (they're paying your loans on a 10 year repayment plan, or a 15-year for 5 years and then 5-year for the last 5 years at Yale) rather than just making your IBR payments. So, if you leave your LRAP job after 4 years, then you don't have a loan balance higher than when you started. I could be wrong about the nature of lower T14 LRAPs though.

Wait, are we talking about being linked to IBR or to PSLF?

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Elston Gunn
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:34 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:
IAFG wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:HYS have substantially better LRAP than the rest of the T14

Is that true? I have seen some T14 LRAPs that don't seem like they could really be improved upon.

Yale has the big advantage that it covers any type of job and is only linked to income. Harvard lets you go on and off whenever (Yale might too?). Also, the not being linked to IBR means you're actually making a dent in your principal (they're paying your loans on a 10 year repayment plan, or a 15-year for 5 years and then 5-year for the last 5 years at Yale) rather than just making your IBR payments. So, if you leave your LRAP job after 4 years, then you don't have a loan balance higher than when you started. I could be wrong about the nature of lower T14 LRAPs though.

Wait, are we talking about being linked to IBR or to PSLF?

IBR. I don't actually know what I'm talking about wrt other T14 LRAPs, but I thought most, with a few exceptions, just made your IBR payments for you. Yale though isn't linked to PSLF either.

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jvincent11
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby jvincent11 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:51 pm

Love this thread.

FWIW, I want NYC biglaw and I spoke to several people in the industry (top firms) and they all said there is no difference from 7-13. They said Columbia is better, and NYU is better but only slightly. They also said UChicago is not better for NYC than the others.

I always thought for NYC Penn was better than its 7-13 peers, but apparently any advantage is negligible.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: T6 vs T10 vs T14

Postby Blessedassurance » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:19 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:The difference between T6 and T14 is more national placement ability for the majority of its candidates than anything. Median from Columbia or Chicago, and NYU can get you a biglaw job in Seattle, Tampa, or Orange County.


keep telling yourself that.

how does leiter feel about the shootings at mit? they went for THE SCHOLARSHIP!

Dude. Not cool.


yo, i'm getting tired of this, wtf...do you understand the joke? i lived in the middle of the shit, cry me a fucking river. the library caught fire unrelated to anything. you have no idea what the joke is about...nothing to see here...how about you all chill out?

edit: to all the 0l's this is the kind of insufferable shit you have to deal with on a daily basis. you can't even make a joke without riling up somebody...there's always the chick who won't stop posting about cats and overplayed when-in-law-school tumblr stuff, gluten-free-product-havers, effete dudes who won't shut up about crossFit...puppy-savers, kumbaya-singers, some bow-tied aspie on the planning committee of FedSoc who corrects grammar over on the internet, obsesses over italicized commas irl, and can't imagine ever missing class..god forbid, that guy who goes to chicago, almost everybody who goes to chicago etc etc., they're all insufferable.
Last edited by Blessedassurance on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.




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