Indiana vs GW

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Indiana v. GW

Indiana Law ($XX,XXX total cost of attendance after scholarship with living stipend)
23
41%
George Washington ($XXX,XXX total cost of attendance after need-based aid)
6
11%
Don't go to law school - the type of job you want is only available if you're from HYS
6
11%
Try a third cycle for UVA or Georgetown
21
38%
 
Total votes: 56

abc987
Posts: 61
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Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:24 pm

Comments explaining the thinking behind your vote would be especially appreciated!

Here are my current options (numbers include living expenses):
> GWU at [removed].
> Indiana Bloomington at [removed].

Waitlisted at UVA and Georgetown. Awaiting decision from Vandy. I'd be inclined to go to any of those three above my current options if the seat becomes available to me.


About Me:
LSAT: 166
UGPA: N/A - attended undergrad institution that used narrative evaluates rather than grades
Non-traditional: 9 years post-undergrad work experience
Virginia resident.
LSN: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ABC987

Work Goal: Public service (anti-discrimination law either for a legal aid type organization or for a government administrative agency). Dream jobs would be at organizations like DOJ Office of Civil Rights, HUD Office of Fair Housing, EEOC, a regional Office of Human Rights, Southern Poverty Law Center, ACLU, Lawyers' Committee, etc.
Preferred work market: D.C. or Northern Virginia

I have some existing networking begun here in D.C. (been doing some fair housing work for a little over two years and some employment law legal aid type work since September). Federal public service loan forgiveness potentially means the $[removed] difference actually results in a $[removed] difference in what I would end up having to pay back, and GW institutional loan assistance potentially means I pay back none of the loans out of pocket, but that assumes I do not veer from my public service plans and I qualify for the federal forgiveness program and/or institutional loan assistance.

This is my second application cycle. Will be out of the country when June LSAT is administered and therefore unable to retake without definitely needing to wait another cycle. I'm disinclined to do another cycle. Do I need to wait *another* year in order to have any chance at the dream jobs I've listed?
Last edited by abc987 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cinephile
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby cinephile » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:56 pm

That amount for GW is absolutely insane. Gw is probably worth a total of 33k.

Are you from Indiana and are you cool with staying there forever? If so, it's a good choice.

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:10 pm

Indiana is the only one that makes any sense at all, but I'd still probably encourage a retake to go to a school in your neck of the woods for cheap.

ETA: The jobs you are looking to do are incredibly competitive right out of law school, and often want to see previous work experience. To position yourself for a job like the ones you are talking about, you should retake the LSAT and aim for a higher ranked school. DC is just a tough market to crack, and bigfed especially so.

TheNextAmendment
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby TheNextAmendment » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:14 pm

cinephile wrote:That amount for GW is absolutely insane. Gw is probably worth a total of 33k.

Are you from Indiana and are you cool with staying there forever? If so, it's a good choice.


I understand most TLSers are all about "T14 or bust" and I understand the rationale, but you sir (after reading more and more of your posts) epitomize the T14 or bust opinion. GW worth a total of 33k?! Thats ludicrous... However, 190K is above what I would pay for GW, but I think 80k-120k is a fair range. Not all of us can score 170+ on the LSAT cinephile...have mercy Mr.Mackey!

abc987- You know my stance from the GW thread. Go Indiana or retake. Good Luck!

abc987
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:15 pm

I have zero ties to Indiana. My closest regional ties are to Ohio, where I did my undergrad, but I wouldn't intend to live in the Midwest after law school.

I'm originally from Massachusetts, but I moved down to the D.C. area (Northern Virginia) a few years ago and hope to work in DC. I'm worried about how big a hit to job search I will find based on going to school outside my intended market vs. exactly in my intended market.

I'm also not sure how to compare the finances when it might be made largely moot by public service loan forgiveness.

abc987
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:19 pm

Thanks to everyone who has given input thus far!

rad lulz
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:21 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:21 pm

See my above edit.

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LiquidJames
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby LiquidJames » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:22 pm

GW is a better school, is it so much better that it's worth the extra cost? well, if you have any connection in indiana, i'd say no, but since you don't, GW may actually give you some edge in your future career and I think it is worth it

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:34 pm

LiquidJames wrote:GW is a better school, is it so much better that it's worth the extra cost? well, if you have any connection in indiana, i'd say no, but since you don't, GW may actually give you some edge in your future career and I think it is worth it

Okay, stop spouting off the cuff, unsubstantiated, unhelpful advice. I'm not trying to come at you here, but we have a bounty of job data and a community full of people who have actually been through the job process and understand how legal hiring works, so let's try to keep it somewhat objective. I've seen your posts in a number of threads now and they're just off base. Things like jobs and debt matter a lot.

GW is a good school, but it is not worth this kind of money, and OP should be looking to 1) retake/reapply for a better school, and 2) get some beneficial job experience if possible.

rad lulz
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby rad lulz » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:41 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abc987
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:17 pm

romothesavior wrote:
LiquidJames wrote:2) get some beneficial job experience if possible.


In case the background about my work was missed, I should point out that I have been working in the private sector for 9 years, and have been doing contract work on fair housing for the past two years. That might have been a little buried in my original post.

Was the comment based on thinking I was K-JD or was it meant to suggest trying to get a one-year position that is specifically in a law context?

timbs4339
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:20 pm

The issue with GW is that your goals are really really tough to get and you probably won't get them. You might get some form of public interest that will allow you to go on PSLF, but it's not going to be DOJ or ACLU.

In that case, 190K is just not worth it, because you might end up in a 50K private job, or one of the 20% of the class doing Pathways to Practice making 20K.

boris78
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby boris78 » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:15 pm

Dude, even if you are ranking-obsessed, the difference between GW and Indiana is tiny. It's not worth the money. Neither is top 14 anyway. Take the ride at Indiana. GW's only real value is IP law and location, otherwise IMHO, it's overpriced.

Or, roll the dice and retake/reapply. But - you might not get where you want and you might not get as good an offer as you have right now.

My wife is an attorney and got out with 25K debt total. Let me tell you, not having huge debt payments will really open your job prospects. Now, you don't HAVE to work at big law (regardless of wanting to or not).

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby romothesavior » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:55 pm

boris78 wrote:Dude, even if you are ranking-obsessed, the difference between GW and Indiana is tiny. It's not worth the money. Neither is top 14 anyway. Take the ride at Indiana. GW's only real value is IP law and location, otherwise IMHO, it's overpriced.

Or, roll the dice and retake/reapply. But - you might not get where you want and you might not get as good an offer as you have right now.

My wife is an attorney and got out with 25K debt total. Let me tell you, not having huge debt payments will really open your job prospects. Now, you don't HAVE to work at big law (regardless of wanting to or not).

The problem is that Indiana doesn't really feed into the jobs OP wants. Its possible, sure, but its a hell of an uphill battle. The T20-30 Midwest schools aren't DC bigfed feeders. Low debt is great, I'm a huge advocate for it, but "now you don't need biglaw" is no help to someone seeking fed work. Its even more competitive than big firm work.

OP, I saw that you have work experience (non K-JD) but I missed that you have some experience in the field you want. That'll be helpful. But you really need a cheaper, DC-feeder option than what you currently have. GW is a fine school but not at the price. I would suggest working for one more year and giving it one more go at the LSAT.

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letsjustsee
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby letsjustsee » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:13 am

.
Last edited by letsjustsee on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

boris78
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby boris78 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:08 am

romothesavior wrote:
boris78 wrote:Dude, even if you are ranking-obsessed, the difference between GW and Indiana is tiny. It's not worth the money. Neither is top 14 anyway. Take the ride at Indiana. GW's only real value is IP law and location, otherwise IMHO, it's overpriced.

Or, roll the dice and retake/reapply. But - you might not get where you want and you might not get as good an offer as you have right now.

My wife is an attorney and got out with 25K debt total. Let me tell you, not having huge debt payments will really open your job prospects. Now, you don't HAVE to work at big law (regardless of wanting to or not).

The problem is that Indiana doesn't really feed into the jobs OP wants. Its possible, sure, but its a hell of an uphill battle. The T20-30 Midwest schools aren't DC bigfed feeders. Low debt is great, I'm a huge advocate for it, but "now you don't need biglaw" is no help to someone seeking fed work. Its even more competitive than big firm work.

OP, I saw that you have work experience (non K-JD) but I missed that you have some experience in the field you want. That'll be helpful. But you really need a cheaper, DC-feeder option than what you currently have. GW is a fine school but not at the price. I would suggest working for one more year and giving it one more go at the LSAT.


I agree with what you are saying. But, there are some mitigating factors. First, OP has work experience and therefore something interesting to bring to the table when compared to fresh-out law grads. Second, OP has contacts, which are part of the battle when finding a job (school reputation is of course part). Maybe OP would have to suck it up for a year in a lesser job in DC first then apply later. My wife is at DOJ - it's very competitive sure, but there are lawyers there from non-top 14 schools.

IMHO, between Indiana and GW, take Indiana.

Between Indiana and reapplying -- that's a gamble only OP can decide. I don't think OP would even need to hit 170 on a retake just closer, as softs are helping in this case. Maybe retake in June, hit 168+, apply super early to Georgetown, UVA etc..?

rad lulz
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby rad lulz » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:33 am

lol @ "less competitive" DC govt jobs

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letsjustsee
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby letsjustsee » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:46 am

.
Last edited by letsjustsee on Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BarrySanders
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby BarrySanders » Sun Apr 21, 2013 12:55 am

I voted for IUB, but it was a close call with waiting and trying to get better. The main reason for this was that the jobs you are looking for are very hard to get, so I would be looking to minimize debt.

As an IUB student, I can tell you that it will be very hard to get where you want from IU, but these jobs are hard to get from GULC or UVA too. Will you be better off at these schools with a lot more debt? I don't know, but if I were set on government work I'd start with as little debt as possible to have some flexibility if it doesn't work out.

abc987
Posts: 61
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:54 am

Thank you again for the comments shared up to this point. I have a lot to evaluate and the thoughts shared here have been a helpful source of perspective.

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danquayle
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby danquayle » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:14 am

romothesavior wrote:
boris78 wrote:Dude, even if you are ranking-obsessed, the difference between GW and Indiana is tiny. It's not worth the money. Neither is top 14 anyway. Take the ride at Indiana. GW's only real value is IP law and location, otherwise IMHO, it's overpriced.

Or, roll the dice and retake/reapply. But - you might not get where you want and you might not get as good an offer as you have right now.

My wife is an attorney and got out with 25K debt total. Let me tell you, not having huge debt payments will really open your job prospects. Now, you don't HAVE to work at big law (regardless of wanting to or not).

The problem is that Indiana doesn't really feed into the jobs OP wants. Its possible, sure, but its a hell of an uphill battle. The T20-30 Midwest schools aren't DC bigfed feeders. Low debt is great, I'm a huge advocate for it, but "now you don't need biglaw" is no help to someone seeking fed work. Its even more competitive than big firm work.

OP, I saw that you have work experience (non K-JD) but I missed that you have some experience in the field you want. That'll be helpful. But you really need a cheaper, DC-feeder option than what you currently have. GW is a fine school but not at the price. I would suggest working for one more year and giving it one more go at the LSAT.


This is the best advice in the thread. Indiana places decently well into DC for a Midwest school, but you're probably going to need BigLaw grades.

Between it and GW I'd go for Indiana because the debt load you're talking about is obscene for any law school. People really undervalue the effect of debt on career choices. Massive debt curtails your options a helluva a lot more than a T1 versus a T14.

I always eschew "retake or bust" because it presumes everyone 1) has the time, 2) values a better career starting spot over one year of their lives and 3) can make substantially better scores. But in your case it might make sense because you have very narrow objectives. For you, you might be best off just trying to make the LSAT you need, otherwise not do law school at all.

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danquayle
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby danquayle » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:19 am

BarrySanders wrote:I voted for IUB, but it was a close call with waiting and trying to get better. The main reason for this was that the jobs you are looking for are very hard to get, so I would be looking to minimize debt.

As an IUB student, I can tell you that it will be very hard to get where you want from IU, but these jobs are hard to get from GULC or UVA too. Will you be better off at these schools with a lot more debt? I don't know, but if I were set on government work I'd start with as little debt as possible to have some flexibility if it doesn't work out.


I don't know why it would be a close call considering the debt. These jobs are like you said hard to get everywhere. They're harder to achieve at IUB than GW for sure, but that debt load is bananas. I'm not sure I'd go to any non-HYS with that debt.

abc987
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby abc987 » Fri May 03, 2013 5:02 pm

I've received updated financial information.

GW increased their aid offer by $[removed], lowering my cost of attendance to approximately $[removed].
Last edited by abc987 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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romothesavior
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Re: Indiana vs GW

Postby romothesavior » Fri May 03, 2013 5:23 pm

Still too expensive, IMO. I'd be wary of going to any non-T14 at that price.




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