Columbia vs Berk Forum

[BigZuck]

And by all that I mean: RETAKE. Don't waste that beautiful Ivy League gpa.

[djwjddl]

And by all that I mean: RETAKE. Don't waste that beautiful Ivy League gpa.

Can't. Took 3 times already.

[Doorkeeper]

I would do some digging to see how likely it is that you keep your aid the next two years. If it's likely, then Berkeley.

[BigZuck]

And by all that I mean: RETAKE. Don't waste that beautiful Ivy League gpa.

Can't. Took 3 times already.

Ugh. I hear you on that.

Then Berkeley. Just know that 3.7/169 has negotiated 90K out of Duke and been given 90K at Cornell.

[ragelion]

Stay in CA.

[BigZuck]

Stay in CA.

How exactly is the OP going to "stay in CA" if the OP is not "in" CA?

[Big Dog]

Regional Preference
Would ultimately like to practice in California upon graduating as my family is out there, but wouldn't mind attending school in NYC for another 3 years. most of my friends are here and have lived on east for all my life.

Boalt, no question.

btw: if you have lived in the east all of your life, and have no ties to California, you ain't coming back from NYC; just to hard.

[djwjddl]

Regional Preference
Would ultimately like to practice in California upon graduating as my family is out there, but wouldn't mind attending school in NYC for another 3 years. most of my friends are here and have lived on east for all my life.

Boalt, no question.

btw: if you have lived in the east all of your life, and have no ties to California, you ain't coming back from NYC; just to hard.

How true is this? I'm assuming having family out there won't count as having ties? Without any ties, is it that hard to place in Cali with a cls degree? Thought cls's employment score for Cali was very good (only behind Chicago and penn)....source:lst report

Also, seems like Columbia places the second highest number of grads in Cali? http://web.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

[Redamon1]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

[Dr. Dre]

don't go to Berkeley over Columbia.

[banjo]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

OP stated some preferences, but seems totally open to working at a large firm in NYC for a few years. Columbia's placement power into those firms is a safety net you shouldn't ignore when you're somewhat ambivalent and not tied down to a city. As for the data, OP can see for himself:

2010-11
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

2012
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That extra 10% placement will be extremely helpful if OP ends up around median. PI placement also isn't hugely different (CLS actually beat Boalt in 2012), if that's something you insist on doing right after graduation. Many law students have said that PI is harder to get than big law.

Conclusion: Go to the school that will give you the best shot at paying down the massive debt you're about to take on. Worry about California/PI later.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

OP stated some preferences, but seems totally open to working at a large firm in NYC for a few years. Columbia's placement power into those firms is a safety net you shouldn't ignore when you're somewhat ambivalent and not tied down to a city. As for the data, OP can see for himself:

2010-11
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

2012
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That extra 10% placement will be extremely helpful if OP ends up around median. PI placement also isn't hugely different (CLS actually beat Boalt in 2012), if that's something you insist on doing right after graduation. Many law students have said that PI is harder to get than big law.

Conclusion: Go to the school that will give you the best shot at paying down the massive debt you're about to take on. Worry about California/PI later.

Or, if you're going to ignore your actual career interests and just go to the school that will give you the best shot at a job that isn't what you really want to do, maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all.

[twinkletoes16]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

OP stated some preferences, but seems totally open to working at a large firm in NYC for a few years. Columbia's placement power into those firms is a safety net you shouldn't ignore when you're somewhat ambivalent and not tied down to a city. As for the data, OP can see for himself:

2010-11
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

2012
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That extra 10% placement will be extremely helpful if OP ends up around median. PI placement also isn't hugely different (CLS actually beat Boalt in 2012), if that's something you insist on doing right after graduation. Many law students have said that PI is harder to get than big law.

Conclusion: Go to the school that will give you the best shot at paying down the massive debt you're about to take on. Worry about California/PI later.

Or, if you're going to ignore your actual career interests and just go to the school that will give you the best shot at a job that isn't what you really want to do, maybe you shouldn't go to law school at all.

Jesus, this. Not everyone wants to work biglaw in NYC and isn't pissing themselves over Suits. I get that people want to hedge their bets but to tell someone who wants CA PI to go to Columbia so they can hope for NYC biglaw is ludicrous.

[Real Madrid]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

OP stated some preferences, but seems totally open to working at a large firm in NYC for a few years. Columbia's placement power into those firms is a safety net you shouldn't ignore when you're somewhat ambivalent and not tied down to a city. As for the data, OP can see for himself:

2010-11
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

2012
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That extra 10% placement will be extremely helpful if OP ends up around median. PI placement also isn't hugely different (CLS actually beat Boalt in 2012), if that's something you insist on doing right after graduation. Many law students have said that PI is harder to get than big law.

Conclusion: Go to the school that will give you the best shot at paying down the massive debt you're about to take on. Worry about California/PI later.

This is just all around bad advice. You aren't really considering OP's desires and you don't fully understand the information you're citing. Case in point: Columbia did not (and does not) place better into PI than Berkeley. Their higher LST number comes from the fact that they have over 8 percent of their class in school-funded positions that count for PI. If you subtract that from the PI number it's not even close.

[djwjddl]

thanks for all the helpful advice thus far. i'm sorry i'm not making this easy (and it's obviously not easy for myself) with my vague job preferences. i do want to make clear that having family living in CA will not count as ties? My family will have moved out there permanently before i begin law school (will be moving in a few months) and my brother is currently practicing in cali.

also, if i were to perform similarly at both institutions, would my prospects for clerking in cali or working PI in cali be that much different? what about ca biglaw? in other words, how much would i lose out on being able to go back to cali to work if i were to go to cls over berk? guess this is more of an employment rather than a debt question.

on a side note, how is berk's lrap compared to columbia's?

[BigZuck]

CA+cheaper screams Berkeley to me. What are you getting hung up on, the prestige of Columbia? Amazing school but that is so much debt. Plus I don't think it will help you get CA near as much as Berkeley considering lack of ties.

[banjo]

[img]

Columbia is a the clear choice. Better employment prospects for pretty much the same cost.

C'mon now. OP wants PI and wants to work in CA. Berkeley has a broader alumni network and places better in those two areas (especially when combined i.e. PI in CA). And the difference in clerkship and BigLaw #s is not significant enough to justify picking C over B for those reasons alone, IMO.

Also this:

These schools have totally different vibes. I suggest you choose the one you feel more comfortable at, because 3 years is a long time just to not fit in with your school.

OP stated some preferences, but seems totally open to working at a large firm in NYC for a few years. Columbia's placement power into those firms is a safety net you shouldn't ignore when you're somewhat ambivalent and not tied down to a city. As for the data, OP can see for himself:

2010-11
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

2012
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

That extra 10% placement will be extremely helpful if OP ends up around median. PI placement also isn't hugely different (CLS actually beat Boalt in 2012), if that's something you insist on doing right after graduation. Many law students have said that PI is harder to get than big law.

Conclusion: Go to the school that will give you the best shot at paying down the massive debt you're about to take on. Worry about California/PI later.

This is just all around bad advice. You aren't really considering OP's desires and you don't fully understand the information you're citing. Case in point: Columbia did not (and does not) place better into PI than Berkeley. Their higher LST number comes from the fact that they have over 8 percent of their class in school-funded positions that count for PI. If you subtract that from the PI number it's not even close.

[/img]

1) OP expressed a desire to clerk and/or do PI. He expressed a desire to practice in CA upon graduation but has lived on the east coast all his life. OP is not even close to dead-set on a location or type of law. In his last post, he also asked about big law prospects. He hasn't mentioned a PI background. In any other thread on TLS, people would have just proceeded as if he were just your average kid in law school who would do OCI and hope for any legal job that could service debt.

2) I am an 0L, but I understand the information I'm citing. I know that CLS placed 8% into school-funded positions. I also know that Berkeley placed about 2% into school-funded positions. If you're going to subtract the full school-funded amounts from both schools' PI placement, you end up with what--a 4% edge to Berkeley? That's not huge. 2Ls and 3Ls routinely attribute differences like that to self-selection and noise in the data. Even if there is a Berkeley PI advantage, it does not overcome CLS's obvious edge in overall good outcomes.

[dixiecupdrinking]

1) OP expressed a desire to clerk and/or do PI. He expressed a desire to practice in CA upon graduation but has lived on the east coast all his life. OP is not even close to dead-set on a location or type of law. In his last post, he also asked about big law prospects. He hasn't mentioned a PI background. In any other thread on TLS, people would have just proceeded as if he were just your average kid in law school who would do OCI and hope for any legal job that could service debt.

2) I am an 0L, but I understand the information I'm citing. I know that CLS placed 8% into school-funded positions. I also know that Berkeley placed about 2% into school-funded positions. If you're going to subtract the full school-funded amounts from both schools' PI placement, you end up with what--a 4% edge to Berkeley? That's not huge. 2Ls and 3Ls routinely attribute differences like that to self-selection and noise in the data. Even if there is a Berkeley PI advantage, it does not overcome CLS's obvious edge in overall good outcomes.

Why are you attributing Berkeley's greater PI percentage to self-selection but not CLS's "obvious edge in overall good outcomes?"

[Real Madrid]

1) OP expressed a desire to clerk and/or do PI. He expressed a desire to practice in CA upon graduation but has lived on the east coast all his life. OP is not even close to dead-set on a location or type of law. In his last post, he also asked about big law prospects. He hasn't mentioned a PI background. In any other thread on TLS, people would have just proceeded as if he were just your average kid in law school who would do OCI and hope for any legal job that could service debt.

2) I am an 0L, but I understand the information I'm citing. I know that CLS placed 8% into school-funded positions. I also know that Berkeley placed about 2% into school-funded positions. If you're going to subtract the full school-funded amounts from both schools' PI placement, you end up with what--a 4% edge to Berkeley? That's not huge. 2Ls and 3Ls routinely attribute differences like that to self-selection and noise in the data. Even if there is a Berkeley PI advantage, it does not overcome CLS's obvious edge in overall good outcomes.

While 2.2% is a small percentage to argue over, I'll simply point out to you that Berkeley's 2.2% school-funded rate are short-term, part-time jobs. The 14.7% PI number is full-time, long-term. So, I guess you really don't understand what you're citing.

[untar614]

Berk has 14.7% vs Columbia's 16.8% FT/LT PI jobs

[banjo]

1) OP expressed a desire to clerk and/or do PI. He expressed a desire to practice in CA upon graduation but has lived on the east coast all his life. OP is not even close to dead-set on a location or type of law. In his last post, he also asked about big law prospects. He hasn't mentioned a PI background. In any other thread on TLS, people would have just proceeded as if he were just your average kid in law school who would do OCI and hope for any legal job that could service debt.

2) I am an 0L, but I understand the information I'm citing. I know that CLS placed 8% into school-funded positions. I also know that Berkeley placed about 2% into school-funded positions. If you're going to subtract the full school-funded amounts from both schools' PI placement, you end up with what--a 4% edge to Berkeley? That's not huge. 2Ls and 3Ls routinely attribute differences like that to self-selection and noise in the data. Even if there is a Berkeley PI advantage, it does not overcome CLS's obvious edge in overall good outcomes.

While 2.2% is a small percentage to argue over, I'll simply point out to you that Berkeley's 2.2% school-funded rate are short-term, part-time jobs. The 14.7% PI number is full-time, long-term. So, I guess you really don't understand what you're citing.

That's a fair correction.

OP, what did you decide?

ETA: dixiecupdrinking, CLS had a 4-5% lower un-employment score using rayiner's method for 2011 and 2012. I'm sure there's a way to equivocate that data too, but it's not as easy to explain away with self-selection. People don't self-select into bad outcomes.