Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Where to go?

Cornell
35
22%
Northwestern
53
33%
Berkeley- who cares about debt?!
41
26%
UCLA
25
16%
USC
6
4%
 
Total votes: 160

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Rahviveh
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:56 pm

helix23 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.


100k is still a lot for what I perceive as far less of a chance of paying off that debt.

100k is around the cutoff point where you could feasibly pay off that debt in 10 years without a biglaw salary or IBR, which is why I think some are saying UCLA/USC are still in contention here. Your quality of life won't be great, but it can be done.

If the OP really is biglaw focused though, Boalt is the right call IMO.

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helix23
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby helix23 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:59 pm

bk1 wrote:
helix23 wrote:100k is still a lot for what I perceive as far less of a chance of paying off that debt.

Of course it's a lot. Far less chance of paying off debt is hyperbolic though.


is that like a hyperbaric chamber?

I said "what I perceive as" so my hyperbole is chill. -20% is nothing to sneeze at though.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:27 pm

Twinkle! Berkeley! I didn't give up my scholarship for naught!

BigZuck
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby BigZuck » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:27 pm

According to some people on this site, Berkeley is a place where everybody farts rainbows and California big law jobs grow on trees. The way the schools have been portrayed on TLS she would be crazy to pass on Berkeley with 75K given how much she wants CA big law. All moot anyway because she has withdrawn from UCLA and USC I believe.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:47 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
SemperLegal wrote:Can't speak to the first part (about C's at USC/UCLA, not sure what the standard "you did bad" grade is. And I agree that its not easy to get Biglaw from Berk. However, the competition seems less strident here, because the system can be gamed. (E.g. taking uncurved classes 1L year and the fact that a lot of us choose either Property or Contracts to make an HH run at, rather than killing ourselves aiming for both.) Also, ungraded LRW is a huuuuge time and stress saver (not sure how standard that is, however).

NU has a similar system (the ability to take uncurved classes as a 1L), but does have graded LRW. I agree that it would be nice not to have graded LRW, but I think that grading systems are very secondary to debt/job prospects. I also think that the added stress of graded LRW is more than made up for by the stress reduction from having almost 1/2 the amount of debt.


FWIW calculating it out it looks like a difference of about 30k- 150k at NU and 178 at Berkeley at graduation.

Ok, great. That 178K number sounds like exactly what I'd expect. Now I think you can definitely eliminate NU here without a doubt. NU is an incredible school, but people on this site love it so much that I think they get a little carried away. Also, Berk's in-state tuition is only 3k higher than UCLA's and actually 4K cheaper than USC's, so are you sure that 80k COA difference is correct?

Anyway, this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206368
Post subject: Class of 2012 Employment Data wrote:School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total. Numbers in parentheses indicate change from 2011.
Berkeley: 53.8(+12.2) + 6.7(-3) = 60.5(+9.2)
Northwestern: 49.2(-4.1) + 6.4(-1.6) = 55.6(-5.7)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)

Combined with this:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=208153&start=175
Kurst wrote:# of alums active with the California bar:

Northwestern: 778
Boalt: 7,302

Congrats twinkletoes, enjoy Boalt.

Should make this an easy decision if the difference between NU and Berkeley is only 30k. Not only did Berkeley outplace NU 60.5% to 55.6%, but looking at the second quoted text, how many of those grads do you think Berkeley sent to CA as opposed to NU? This should be an open and shut case Twinkletoes. Congrats!

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Cobretti
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby Cobretti » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:05 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:Anyway, this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206368
Post subject: Class of 2012 Employment Data wrote:School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total. Numbers in parentheses indicate change from 2011.
Berkeley: 53.8(+12.2) + 6.7(-3) = 60.5(+9.2)
Northwestern: 49.2(-4.1) + 6.4(-1.6) = 55.6(-5.7)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)


Can anyone explain how these biglaw numbers are so different from the NLJ 250 numbers? (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2013/02/class-of-2012-nlj-250-statistics/)
I realize NLJ 250 doesn't necessarily have a 100 lawyer cutoff to make the list, but does this mean that Berk has a significant number in smaller firms that are somewhere between 100 and the smallest NLJ250 firm? And are these firms market paying big law or the ever elusive midlaw? But similarly, if that's true how is NU's smaller than its NLJ 250 placement, if all NLJ 250 firms are > 100 attorneys?

Which data is bullshit is really my question.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:11 pm

Cobretti wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:Anyway, this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206368
Post subject: Class of 2012 Employment Data wrote:School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total. Numbers in parentheses indicate change from 2011.
Berkeley: 53.8(+12.2) + 6.7(-3) = 60.5(+9.2)
Northwestern: 49.2(-4.1) + 6.4(-1.6) = 55.6(-5.7)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)


Can anyone explain how these biglaw numbers are so different from the NLJ 250 numbers? (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2013/02/class-of-2012-nlj-250-statistics/)
I realize NLJ 250 doesn't necessarily have a 100 lawyer cutoff to make the list, but does this mean that Berk has a significant number in smaller firms that are somewhere between 100 and the smallest NLJ250 firm? And are these firms market paying big law or the ever elusive midlaw? But similarly, if that's true how is NU's smaller than its NLJ 250 placement, if all NLJ 250 firms are > 100 attorneys?

Which data is bullshit is really my question.


Apparently the NLJ got their NU estimate wrong, because they under-estimated the class size.

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untar614
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby untar614 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:20 pm

Cobretti wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:Anyway, this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206368
Post subject: Class of 2012 Employment Data wrote:School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total. Numbers in parentheses indicate change from 2011.
Berkeley: 53.8(+12.2) + 6.7(-3) = 60.5(+9.2)
Northwestern: 49.2(-4.1) + 6.4(-1.6) = 55.6(-5.7)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)


Can anyone explain how these biglaw numbers are so different from the NLJ 250 numbers? (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2013/02/class-of-2012-nlj-250-statistics/)
I realize NLJ 250 doesn't necessarily have a 100 lawyer cutoff to make the list, but does this mean that Berk has a significant number in smaller firms that are somewhere between 100 and the smallest NLJ250 firm? And are these firms market paying big law or the ever elusive midlaw? But similarly, if that's true how is NU's smaller than its NLJ 250 placement, if all NLJ 250 firms are > 100 attorneys?

Which data is bullshit is really my question.

Woah, you're right, these numbers don't mesh.

SO I comparedthe NLJ chart numbers and the ABA data, and the aba has 145 in firms of 101+, and the NLJ has 144 in NLJ250 firms. The difference is the total number of grads used. ABA/LST uses 295 while NLJ uses 280. The 9 pursuing grad degrees might make up most of this disparity, but idk

M458
Posts: 387
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby M458 » Wed May 01, 2013 1:13 pm

Cobretti wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:Anyway, this: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=206368
Post subject: Class of 2012 Employment Data wrote:School: Employed in firms of 100+ attorneys + federal clerkships = Total. Numbers in parentheses indicate change from 2011.
Berkeley: 53.8(+12.2) + 6.7(-3) = 60.5(+9.2)
Northwestern: 49.2(-4.1) + 6.4(-1.6) = 55.6(-5.7)
UCLA: 34.2(+11.7) + 4.8(+.4) = 39(+12.1)
USC: 30.8(+3.5) + 6.7(-2.4) = 37.5(+1.1)


Can anyone explain how these biglaw numbers are so different from the NLJ 250 numbers? (http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/2013/02/class-of-2012-nlj-250-statistics/)
I realize NLJ 250 doesn't necessarily have a 100 lawyer cutoff to make the list, but does this mean that Berk has a significant number in smaller firms that are somewhere between 100 and the smallest NLJ250 firm? And are these firms market paying big law or the ever elusive midlaw? But similarly, if that's true how is NU's smaller than its NLJ 250 placement, if all NLJ 250 firms are > 100 attorneys?

Which data is bullshit is really my question.


As ChampagnePapi mentions in a post above, NLJ got Northwestern's class size wrong--they essentially miscalculated and thought NU had a smaller class size, thus inflating that percentage.

The NLJ 250 data is firm-reported, and apparently there are some firms that don't report/under-report (I think Davis Polk & Paul Hastings were mentioned as firms that didn't even submit any numbers even though they were hiring a lot of NYU/Columbia grads). Possibly another issue is Berkeley placing grads into IP boutiques??? That one's more of a guess though. I think you have to take both sets of data and kind of draw your own conclusions.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Cornell $$$ vs USC/LA $$$ vs NU $$$ vs Berkeley

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Wed May 01, 2013 2:28 pm

^^Wouldn't it be safe to say that, in general, the ABA data is more accurate? Not sure, but I always thought that was more of a "final tally" than/superseded the other lists.




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