Boalt v Retake

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BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:37 pm

Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:I know for a fact you can get BigLaw regardless of grades at Cal. Obviously the better your grades are the better your chances. But I know tons of people with BigLaw in CA with poor grades here. While Dr. "FGCU is a better basketball job than USC" Dre can say whatevs, nothing really replaces A.) the larger alumni network B.) the fact that more CA firms have receptions / give more attention / do more recruiting at Boalt C.) the people you will meet here will be better references for your work in CA D.) in most clinics here you will work directly with CA firms and attorneys.

They're peer schools. If Penn is slightly better at placing BigLaw attorneys, I think the better explanation is the wealth of east coast markets and the fact that the New York market is doing much better than most other cities. I doubt a single firm over here considers Penn a better school than Berkeley.


If grades don't matter why isn't employment closer to 100%? Poor interviewing skills? Never wanted to be a lawyer to begin with?


There is just a lot more that goes into hiring than people on TLS acknowledge. It's not like the top 55-60% of a class get BigLaw and the other 40-45% scramble. Some people in the top 20% get shut out. Some people in the bottom 20% get jobs. Some people at the median get shut out, some people get jobs.


I get that there are a lot of factors that goes into all this and there are no real hard and fast rules. Anyway I think it is borderline irresponsible to tell us ignorant and gullible 0Ls that big law can be had regardless of grades. Even if that is technically true in some instances I think that paints way too rosy of a picture for a school of Berkeley's caliber. And I think we should err on the side of conservative when hundreds of thousands of dollars and our financial future hangs in the balance.

Anyway OP, I think you should retake one last time on the off chance that an even better situation materializes. Or not. YOLO bro, do whatever makes you happy. I sincerely mean that.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Tom Joad » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:39 pm

T14 bounds 0Ls should be smart enough to realize that just because something (grades) is a major factor, doesn't mean it is dispositive.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:58 pm

Kronk wrote: While Dr. "FGCU is a better basketball job than USC" Dre can say whatevs, nothing really replaces A.) the larger alumni network B.) the fact that more CA firms have receptions / give more attention / do more recruiting at Boalt C.) the people you will meet here will be better references for your work in CA D.) in most clinics here you will work directly with CA firms and attorneys.



You may be correct that if you want CA law, go to berkeley.

But OP is not 100% sure he wants to stay in california. Because of this, I say Penn is better. He needn't stay in california.

SportsFan
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby SportsFan » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:14 pm

How the hell did this turn into a Penn vs. Boalt thread. :lol:

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby twinkletoes16 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:42 pm

I have to say it is interesting to see the difference between this thread and others (like mine) of fellow Californians. Here it is clear to go to Cal.

For me I was told NU and don't look back. With $$$ at NU it still feels like a gamble if I ONLY want CA biglaw, but looking at Berk at sticker is scary, and those are my 2 choices right now.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:45 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:those are my 2 choices right now.



go to northwestern

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby twinkletoes16 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:10 am

Dr. Dre wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:those are my 2 choices right now.



go to northwestern



Not to feed the troll but also looking at UCLA/USC with $$$

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Dr. Dre » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:13 am

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:those are my 2 choices right now.



go to northwestern



Not to feed the troll but also looking at UCLA/USC with $$$



troll? me? you're the one considering UCLA/USC when going to Northwestern is the clear and sound option.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:21 am

So
Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:I know for a fact you can get BigLaw regardless of grades at Cal. Obviously the better your grades are the better your chances. But I know tons of people with BigLaw in CA with poor grades here. While Dr. "FGCU is a better basketball job than USC" Dre can say whatevs, nothing really replaces A.) the larger alumni network B.) the fact that more CA firms have receptions / give more attention / do more recruiting at Boalt C.) the people you will meet here will be better references for your work in CA D.) in most clinics here you will work directly with CA firms and attorneys.

They're peer schools. If Penn is slightly better at placing BigLaw attorneys, I think the better explanation is the wealth of east coast markets and the fact that the New York market is doing much better than most other cities. I doubt a single firm over here considers Penn a better school than Berkeley.


If grades don't matter why isn't employment closer to 100%? Poor interviewing skills? Never wanted to be a lawyer to begin with?


There is just a lot more that goes into hiring than people on TLS acknowledge. It's not like the top 55-60% of a class get BigLaw and the other 40-45% scramble. Some people in the top 20% get shut out. Some people in the bottom 20% get jobs. Some people at the median get shut out, some people get jobs.


On the topic of biglaw jobs from Cal & grades, its worth noting their interview process is blind, so the employer wont screen you for grades. If you impress in the interview, you can get the job even w/ mostly Ps. I was just there for ASW and spoke with plenty of 2Ls/3Ls with firm jobs or fed clerkships lined up with wildly different P/H/HH distributions. So Kronks response is credited here

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worldtraveler
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby worldtraveler » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:27 am

BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:I know for a fact you can get BigLaw regardless of grades at Cal. Obviously the better your grades are the better your chances. But I know tons of people with BigLaw in CA with poor grades here. While Dr. "FGCU is a better basketball job than USC" Dre can say whatevs, nothing really replaces A.) the larger alumni network B.) the fact that more CA firms have receptions / give more attention / do more recruiting at Boalt C.) the people you will meet here will be better references for your work in CA D.) in most clinics here you will work directly with CA firms and attorneys.

They're peer schools. If Penn is slightly better at placing BigLaw attorneys, I think the better explanation is the wealth of east coast markets and the fact that the New York market is doing much better than most other cities. I doubt a single firm over here considers Penn a better school than Berkeley.


If grades don't matter why isn't employment closer to 100%? Poor interviewing skills? Never wanted to be a lawyer to begin with?


1. Maybe they're a social stunted weirdo who creeps out all their interviewers
2. (Most likely) They are public interest focused and didn't want a firm job to begin with, and wouldn't accept one if offered.
3. They decide to go some other route with their law degree.

I know people with straight Ps all through who got firm jobs. I also know people with great grades who are unemployed. No one is saying grades DO NOT matter, but they are definitely not the only factor.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:28 am

Yeah, I mean I was going to quit arguing with the 0Ls, but exactly what you said above. You get your interviews before they see your grades with our system. There are certain law firms that have soft cut-offs based on the number of Ps and Hs and HHs you have, but if you talk to CDO ahead of time you can just not bid on those firms, bid on the ones that are open to different grade distributions, and I know plenty of people that have turned those interviews into SAs. I also know a couple that got shut out, some with decent, median-ish grades or better and good interview skills. But that number is very, very small compared to the number of people who got Vault 100 jobs with sub-median grades.

Big Dog
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Big Dog » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:12 am

go to northwestern


For once (and probably the only time), I concur with Dre.

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ssanonymous
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby ssanonymous » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:39 am

Sort of in the same boat. Free Berkeley (matching scholarship, need based aid, and outside scholarships) vs. retake for HYS. Don't you guys think that most at HYS turned down a lot of money from T-14 schools to attend? I think the general consensus is that HYS is worth a little debt, right?

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jbagelboy
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:56 pm

ssanonymous wrote:Sort of in the same boat. Free Berkeley (matching scholarship, need based aid, and outside scholarships) vs. retake for HYS. Don't you guys think that most at HYS turned down a lot of money from T-14 schools to attend? I think the general consensus is that HYS is worth a little debt, right?


HYS is worth sticker.

But if you want to practice in CA, Cal for free is just as good!

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:21 pm

ssanonymous wrote:Sort of in the same boat. Free Berkeley (matching scholarship, need based aid, and outside scholarships) vs. retake for HYS. Don't you guys think that most at HYS turned down a lot of money from T-14 schools to attend? I think the general consensus is that HYS is worth a little debt, right?


Make sure the financial aid office isn't about to "recalculate" your need because your scholarship was matched. This could result in your need-based award being reduced, from what I've heard anecdotally.

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wert3813
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby wert3813 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:37 pm

I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:41 pm

wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Yep, this is why I said if the OP was going to get a better option than Cal @ 21k/yr, he or she would basically have to score above a 175 or 176 and get a Hamilton or Ruby, which would still be a stretch. 3.9 / 174 and my best offer was probably Chicago @ 25k/yr. Which I don't even think they offer anymore due to their new named scholarships. I only got 75K at Duke, 60K-ish at Penn (don't remember exactly but I think it was an off-number), 90K UVa, but nothing much better than 21K @ Boalt.

I honestly am not really on Berkeley's jock in comparison to other schools, I think personal fit is a bit deal and where you want to live for three years and practice afterwards is a huge deal, but it seems like a no-brainer here for me.

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ssanonymous
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby ssanonymous » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:42 pm

WhiskeynCoke wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:Sort of in the same boat. Free Berkeley (matching scholarship, need based aid, and outside scholarships) vs. retake for HYS. Don't you guys think that most at HYS turned down a lot of money from T-14 schools to attend? I think the general consensus is that HYS is worth a little debt, right?


Make sure the financial aid office isn't about to "recalculate" your need because your scholarship was matched. This could result in your need-based award being reduced, from what I've heard anecdotally.


They're not going to since Gtown's scholarship was $$ + need based aid. Also, Berkeley doesn't touch need based aid eva. Only Berkeley and SLS let you keep your need based aid even if you get a bunch of scholarships. The only thing that might hurt me is that my EFC will likely increase since scholarship money that is used for living expenses is considered income and is taxable, but I think I can appeal any significant aid reduction.

HYS worth sticker? Then it might be worth a year off. I think I'm headed to DC.

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ssanonymous
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby ssanonymous » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:47 pm

wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Well, the OP probably has high need if he or she is getting 21k from Berkeley a year. Assuming his or her income level doesn't change, he or she will get more need based aid from HYS since they only give out need based aid. I believe HYS will make a person with high need take out 120k, but will cover the rest in grants. Right now Berkeley will cost the OP 148k plus summer expenses since Berkeley's summer stipend isn't guaranteed and is only for 4k,

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:50 pm

Kronk wrote:
wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Yep, this is why I said if the OP was going to get a better option than Cal @ 21k/yr, he or she would basically have to score above a 175 or 176 and get a Hamilton or Ruby, which would still be a stretch. 3.9 / 174 and my best offer was probably Chicago @ 25k/yr. Which I don't even think they offer anymore due to their new named scholarships. I only got 75K at Duke, 60K-ish at Penn (don't remember exactly but I think it was an off-number), 90K UVa, but nothing much better than 21K @ Boalt.

I honestly am not really on Berkeley's jock in comparison to other schools, I think personal fit is a bit deal and where you want to live for three years and practice afterwards is a huge deal, but it seems like a no-brainer here for me.


This cycle, 169/3.7s have been getting 70K at Duke, 90K at Cornell, etc. It's a different world in regards to scholarships but who knows how sustainable that is.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:52 pm

ssanonymous wrote:
wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Well, the OP probably has high need if he or she is getting 21k from Berkeley a year. Assuming his or her income level doesn't change, he or she will get more need based aid from HYS since they only give out need based aid. I believe HYS will make a person with high need take out 120k, but will cover the rest in grants. Right now Berkeley will cost the OP 148k plus summer expenses since Berkeley's summer stipend isn't guaranteed and is only for 4k,


"Isn't guaranteed" = guaranteed, in the case of the summer stipend. You also have a good chance at an additional 1k on that 4k through the Berkeley Law Foundation. But all you have to do is 25 hours in a clinic, which almost every 1L does anyway and is really pretty simple.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:58 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:
wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Yep, this is why I said if the OP was going to get a better option than Cal @ 21k/yr, he or she would basically have to score above a 175 or 176 and get a Hamilton or Ruby, which would still be a stretch. 3.9 / 174 and my best offer was probably Chicago @ 25k/yr. Which I don't even think they offer anymore due to their new named scholarships. I only got 75K at Duke, 60K-ish at Penn (don't remember exactly but I think it was an off-number), 90K UVa, but nothing much better than 21K @ Boalt.

I honestly am not really on Berkeley's jock in comparison to other schools, I think personal fit is a bit deal and where you want to live for three years and practice afterwards is a huge deal, but it seems like a no-brainer here for me.


This cycle, 169/3.7s have been getting 70K at Duke, 90K at Cornell, etc. It's a different world in regards to scholarships but who knows how sustainable that is.


I think you're the exception rather than the rule there based on LSN, my man. Pretty difficult to find non-URM examples of someone with a 3.7 getting anything better than 21k/yr at Boalt without a 175+. Unless you're of your opinion and think that 20k/Penn is significantly better.

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bruinfan10
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby bruinfan10 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:00 pm

Kronk wrote:
ssanonymous wrote:
wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Well, the OP probably has high need if he or she is getting 21k from Berkeley a year. Assuming his or her income level doesn't change, he or she will get more need based aid from HYS since they only give out need based aid. I believe HYS will make a person with high need take out 120k, but will cover the rest in grants. Right now Berkeley will cost the OP 148k plus summer expenses since Berkeley's summer stipend isn't guaranteed and is only for 4k,


"Isn't guaranteed" = guaranteed, in the case of the summer stipend. You also have a good chance at an additional 1k on that 4k through the Berkeley Law Foundation. But all you have to do is 25 hours in a clinic, which almost every 1L does anyway and is really pretty simple.

Man, Kronk, you're still trying to fend off this 0L shitshow? They refuse to understand that OP has already prepped the hell out of the LSAT and scored about as well as s/he can expect. And as the person above you stated, people with much better numbers than OP (myself included) couldn't extract that kind of phenomenal scholarship from Boalt. This a golden opportunity, and OP, if you're still reading this, you worked hard and got a great result. I'd be ecstatic if I were you.
Last edited by bruinfan10 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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wert3813
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby wert3813 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:01 pm

ssanonymous wrote:
wert3813 wrote:I fully expect it to get lost ITT but I just want to say that I still think TLS overstates how much money one can expect based on numbers. I had a 4.0 171 and got in everywhere that I wasn't YPed (UVA and UM) but the money is not nearly what TLS would expect.

I got 90K from Duke so that the notion that a 171 for OP is going to significantly increase money above the 62K they have for Boalt seems wrong (especially when comparing GPAs).


Well, the OP probably has high need if he or she is getting 21k from Berkeley a year. Assuming his or her income level doesn't change, he or she will get more need based aid from HYS since they only give out need based aid. I believe HYS will make a person with high need take out 120k, but will cover the rest in grants. Right now Berkeley will cost the OP 148k plus summer expenses since Berkeley's summer stipend isn't guaranteed and is only for 4k,


If OP could get into HYS then fine but they would need a 176 plus probably. I got 75K from UChicago and nothing from Columbia. Withdrew from NYU before they could offer. Maybe I had a bad application, but I believe I have pretty strong softs and got into both H and C where LSN gave me a 55% and 69% respectively FWIW.

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:02 pm

Good point. I'm done. OP -- I think Boalt is a phenomenal option for you, and unless you think you want to study and try for a mid-to-high 170s LSAT, I think it's about as good as it gets.

If you have questions about Boalt feel free to PM me.




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