Boalt v Retake

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BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:48 pm

Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:WTF is this guaranteed big law stuff?

Also, just because 21K at Boalt is a great outcome for Boalt doesn't mean that the OP can't get something significantly better from another school.


Significantly better? Like what, a Hamilton or Ruby? 21K at Boalt is probably about as well as the OP will do unless he/she can get her score above a 175, breh.


60K at Penn. 120K at Cornell. 150K at NU. The list of objectively better options goes on and on broseph. I have a sneaking suspicion you go to Cal...

Agreed that money at Boalt is a win. Doesn't mean that taking it and running is neccessarily the best decision, especially when you have the June LSAT right there for the taking.

If the OP is really set on Berkeley, Penn, or Columbia/NYU then I guess don't bother with a retake. But that is really short-sighted IMO. There are a number of great schools that could be had for significantly cheaper than their offer at Berkeley if they raise their LSAT 4-5 points.

WhiskeynCoke
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby WhiskeynCoke » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:13 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:WTF is this guaranteed big law stuff?

Also, just because 21K at Boalt is a great outcome for Boalt doesn't mean that the OP can't get something significantly better from another school.


Significantly better? Like what, a Hamilton or Ruby? 21K at Boalt is probably about as well as the OP will do unless he/she can get her score above a 175, breh.


60K at Penn. 120K at Cornell. 150K at NU. The list of objectively better options goes on and on broseph. I have a sneaking suspicion you go to Cal...

Agreed that money at Boalt is a win. Doesn't mean that taking it and running is neccessarily the best decision, especially when you have the June LSAT right there for the taking.

If the OP is really set on Berkeley, Penn, or Columbia/NYU then I guess don't bother with a retake. But that is really short-sighted IMO. There are a number of great schools that could be had for significantly cheaper than their offer at Berkeley if they raise their LSAT 4-5 points.


Did you miss the entire original post of this thread? OP has already taken the LSAT 2x, with a combined total of 11 months studying, with a prep course and a private tutor. Based on his past described performance, what makes you think he's gonna hit 171+, which would be the minimum score necessary to start seeing those types of scholarship offers? Also, the tuition at those schools is MUCH higher than in-state at Boalt (Cornell is 57k vs 48k Boalt), which severely diminishes the value of the scholarship difference.

- 60k at Penn is not objectively better than 63K at Berkeley. This is especially true if, like the OP, you'd like to work in SF.
- Tuition at Cornell is 27k more than B for all 3 years. 120k at cornell vs. 63k at Berkeley is only a cost difference of 30k. I'd definitely pay 30k more for Boalt's incredibly superior CA placement (and placement in general) and for the fact that I'd get to live in Berkeley instead of Ithaca for 3 years.
- 150k at Northwestern (tuition is 54k/yr) is VERY unlikely unless he hits high 170's. Even then, if you want SF Big Law Boalt at 63k is still in the running.

This guy is a 165/3.75. 63k plus in-state at Boalt is a great outcome. Stop being ridiculous.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:17 pm

Wow. The retake party is really getting out of hand on this one. Not everyone can get a 170. I'm frankly impressed that OP had so much determination and resilience to get the score he got coming from a 157.

I think Berkeley with that money is a good option and if you have other important things you need to worry about in the interim before law school, I'd say take the offer. I understand that people think there are no downsides to retaking but given your history, it just seems like it would be a waste of time to do all that prep again.

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sinfiery
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby sinfiery » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:24 pm

WhiskeynCoke wrote:Are you fucking serious? This was a solid point being made until the awful advice in the last sentence. Attending Berkeley is most definitely worth paying $27,111 more a year than a "strong regional" when your goal is to work in Big Law for a few years. Also, Boalt is VERY strong in it's "region." It's also strong in the rest of the country. Finally, his LSAT score isn't high enough to get him a full ride to any school worth attending over B.


I only mentioned that because OP said "I'm still unsure about what I want to do specifically." which gave me the vibe that they may or may not want biglaw at graduation even if they want it now kind of "for a couple years now".


If you go to Berkeley, even with 21k/year, you have to do biglaw or live on PAYE/IBR. If they weren't comfortable doing that, that's where the strong regional full ride comes into play.

But yeah, Berkeley is definitely the better option...but you have to do biglaw.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:26 pm

WhiskeynCoke wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:WTF is this guaranteed big law stuff?

Also, just because 21K at Boalt is a great outcome for Boalt doesn't mean that the OP can't get something significantly better from another school.


Significantly better? Like what, a Hamilton or Ruby? 21K at Boalt is probably about as well as the OP will do unless he/she can get her score above a 175, breh.


60K at Penn. 120K at Cornell. 150K at NU. The list of objectively better options goes on and on broseph. I have a sneaking suspicion you go to Cal...

Agreed that money at Boalt is a win. Doesn't mean that taking it and running is neccessarily the best decision, especially when you have the June LSAT right there for the taking.

If the OP is really set on Berkeley, Penn, or Columbia/NYU then I guess don't bother with a retake. But that is really short-sighted IMO. There are a number of great schools that could be had for significantly cheaper than their offer at Berkeley if they raise their LSAT 4-5 points.


Did you miss the entire original post of this thread? OP has already taken the LSAT 2x, with a combined total of 11 months studying, with a prep course and a private tutor. Based on his past described performance, what makes you think he's gonna hit 171+, which would be the minimum score necessary to start seeing those types of scholarship offers? Also, the tuition at those schools is MUCH higher than in-state at Boalt (Cornell is 57k vs 48k Boalt), which severely diminishes the value of the scholarship difference.

- 60k at Penn is not objectively better than 63K at Berkeley. This is especially true if, like the OP, you'd like to work in SF.
- Tuition at Cornell is 27k more than B for all 3 years. 120k at cornell vs. 63k at Berkeley is only a cost difference of 30k. I'd definitely pay 30k more for Boalt's incredibly superior CA placement (and placement in general) and for the fact that I'd get to live in Berkeley instead of Ithaca for 3 years.
- 150k at Northwestern (tuition is 54k/yr) is VERY unlikely unless he hits high 170's. Even then, if you want SF Big Law Boalt at 63k is still in the running.

This guy is a 165/3.75. 63k plus in-state at Boalt is a great outcome. Stop being ridiculous.


Only thing I missed was that OP was instate for all three years. I was thinking he was paying out of state sticker minus 60K. That's a substantial difference. You're right.

I guess the issue here is what does median at Cal look like? Do medianish kids routinely get CA big law? Because if median means having to get NY big law like every other T14 then I don't get why the OP should pay substantially more to go to Cal over a place like Duke or Cornell. Placement numbers in general are very similar from each school so paying more to attend one over the other is ridiculous (baring concerns like being close to a spouse, hating a place like Ithaca, etc.) Do we know, without any doubt, how much better Cal is for CA placement?

And I think that all things considered I would pay more to attend Penn than Cal if all I wanted was big law wherever. Penn places better.

Considering placement is so much similar between the two schools if all I wanted was big law I would take Cornell at a 30K discount over Cal, Ithaca be damned.

Again 150K at NU is way better than 61K at Cal. And people were getting 150K this cycle with 3.8/170. OP isn't too far away from scoring where this could be a possibility.

I'm not saying don't go to Cal. I'm saying retake the LSAT when there is no downside but possible upside. If they don't score higher, then just go to Cal.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Elston Gunn » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:27 pm

Is this true need based aid? Is it guaranteed for the other years? Do people who get it tend to get it renewed? Do they take it away if you get an SA?

If it's 63K guaranteed, then go for it.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:31 pm

Also whiskey- you said big law was pretty much guaranteed from Cal. That's rediculous. We aren't talking about Stanford here.

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CorpusChristi
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby CorpusChristi » Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:37 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:This is going to be one of the first times I've ever advised someone with a good GPA and a LSAT <170 NOT to retake. If you legitimately put in that much prep and never beat 172 on a PT, I don't know what more you could really do to improve the score. You'd probably have to break 172 to get into HYS anyway, and if you get that same aid at Berkeley every year, your debt load would be high, but not completely unmanageable for a school of that caliber. Be 100% certain you want to practice law first, but Berkeley at that price can be a decent decision IMO.


Quality-wise, I totally agree with WokeUpInACar. What saddens me ( I am a foreigner ) is that most of the prospective students in the USA are pushed to place money over personal choice due to insanely high tuition fees. In your case, you should be extremely happy to receive acceptance from one of the best law schools in the country with some money in the giftbag. Taking a holistic approach, it is not worth trying to get into e.g. Harvard when you've been accepted into Boalt - the only notable exception being the willingness to pursue academic career therein. Otherwise, the increase in chances of getting into TLS's favourite, "biglaw", afterwards, does not change so dramatically for anyone coming from top10-20 universities. That's the truth. Small increase in the chance is not worth all the hassle provided you're among the top of the class, at any top20 university.

I understand you completely, but having debt is almost within a definition of "law studies in the USA". Given the fact you're already on a "Boalt" with some money, I wouldn't hesitate if I were you.

As to other pieces of advice you've received from users, most of them provide you with some reasonable ideas. Choose the one that goes with your thinking. Remember, what matters the most is your well-being and personal preferences. I am not saying that "money doesn't matter", for that's not true - having a huge debt or having none - it's extremely important, but don't forget that it's all about you and how you're going to feel in a given place, at a given law school.

Best regards

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:12 pm

TLS has changed from 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people to go to Fordham at sticker, to 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people not to go to Berkeley with substantial scholarships.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:18 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS has changed from 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people to go to Fordham at sticker, to 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people not to go to Berkeley with substantial scholarships.


Who said anything about not going to Berkeley?

I hope you're not talking about me. I basically said don't go to Berkeley if you have a better option. And to that end, do whatever you can to create a better option. If you have exhausted that and don't have any better options then by all means go to Berkeley. But the OP will not have exhausted that until they take one more crack at the LSAT.

solucky
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby solucky » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:26 pm

bruinfan10 wrote:I had a 170/3.84 and I would have KILLED for that money at Boalt. Take it and don't look back.

Also, don't bother retaking - it sounds like you're lucky to have gotten a 165 given the extreme variability in your PTs. Sounds like you hit the middle of your range - most people do worse with the pressure on test day. Regardless the point is moot given Berk's merit aid practices; I have friends who went to Boalt with scores as high as 176 who didn't get financial aid - the school is notoriously stingy - you're in a fantastic position with the money they've offered you.


+1

Since it seems you have maxed out on your LSAT prep, I would not recommend re-taking. Berkeley will be what you put into it. Take LS seriously, do well, network a lot, and leave with less debt than most that are going at sticker. Berkeley is notoriously stingy.

This is coming from someone who has decided to likely re-take because I didn't have the sense the first time around to study as diligently as you did.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS has changed from 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people to go to Fordham at sticker, to 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people not to go to Berkeley with substantial scholarships.


Who said anything about not going to Berkeley?

I hope you're not talking about me. I basically said don't go to Berkeley if you have a better option. And to that end, do whatever you can to create a better option. If you have exhausted that and don't have any better options then by all means go to Berkeley. But the OP will not have exhausted that until they take one more crack at the LSAT.

I think the idea that OP is going to end up with a better situation next year even if they happen to get a 170 or a 172 or something is silly. They're not getting more money at CLS or NYU with those numbers, and I seriously doubt it at Penn. They very likely may not get the same money from Berkeley next year. Relatively speaking they've already hit the lottery here.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:30 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:TLS has changed from 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people to go to Fordham at sticker, to 0Ls with no idea what they are talking about telling people not to go to Berkeley with substantial scholarships.


Who said anything about not going to Berkeley?

I hope you're not talking about me. I basically said don't go to Berkeley if you have a better option. And to that end, do whatever you can to create a better option. If you have exhausted that and don't have any better options then by all means go to Berkeley. But the OP will not have exhausted that until they take one more crack at the LSAT.

I think the idea that OP is going to end up with a better situation next year even if they happen to get a 170 or a 172 or something is silly. They're not getting more money at CLS or NYU with those numbers, and I seriously doubt it at Penn. They very likely may not get the same money from Berkeley next year. Relatively speaking they've already hit the lottery here.


And if the OP is only considering those 4 schools that is really short-sighted.

Anyone figure out how much better Boalt is for CA big law than schools like Cornell or NU? That would be really helpful.

delusional
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby delusional » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:47 pm

Add one vote to the Boalt side.

OP pretty much achieved the absolute best outcome possible within five points of his/her LSAT score. S/he could add literally seven points on the LSAT and not get a better outcome, and that is without mentioning how unlikely adding the points would be and how much effort it would take.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:49 pm

delusional wrote:Add one vote to the Boalt side.

OP pretty much achieved the absolute best outcome possible within five points of his/her LSAT score. S/he could add literally seven points on the LSAT and not get a better outcome, and that is without mentioning how unlikely adding the points would be and how much effort it would take.


You are delusional

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Elston Gunn » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:51 pm

Again, is this aid guaranteed for 2L and 3L? It's not clear from the OP.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Dr. Dre » Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:51 pm

Cornell or NYU > Berkeley

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jbagelboy
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby jbagelboy » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:10 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:Cornell or NYU > Berkeley


Berkeley > > > Cornell outside of NYU biglaw.

I see NYU and Cal as on par, with NYU having a leg up in east coast biglaw and european studies, and berk having a leg up in CA biglaw, asia studies, and anything IP/tech oritented

and OP, GO TO BERKELEY! 21K/yr is AMAZING! thats almost as much as I have in merit aid from them. you won't get more than that unless you broke 174 or magically raised your gpa.

and congratulations!!

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sinfiery
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby sinfiery » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:11 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:Again, is this aid guaranteed for 2L and 3L? It's not clear from the OP.

Berkeley doesn't really let you know. It definitely isn't guaranteed for 2L/3L but it would seem weird for them to substantially change your need based aid if your financial/parents financial information didn't also substantially change.

A 1L/2L SA would very likely take away most of this aid but even that isn't definite.


And it is definitely need-based. When you look at the numbers who got aid, there really is no correlation.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Elston Gunn » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:17 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:Again, is this aid guaranteed for 2L and 3L? It's not clear from the OP.

Berkeley doesn't really let you know. It definitely isn't guaranteed for 2L/3L but it would seem weird for them to substantially change your need based aid if your financial/parents financial information didn't also substantially change.

A 1L/2L SA would very likely take away most of this aid but even that isn't definite.


And it is definitely need-based. When you look at the numbers who got aid, there really is no correlation.

Thanks. Sounds like OP really has $42K if Biglaw and $63K if no Biglaw.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby ManoftheHour » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:19 pm

BigZuck wrote:I'm not saying don't go to Cal. I'm saying retake the LSAT when there is no downside but possible upside. If they don't score higher, then just go to Cal.


I don't get what there is to argue about. How is this wrong? Let's say OP gets a 120. Go to Berkeley. Let's say he gets a 175. Reconsider, but he can still go to Berkeley if he wants. Unless he's making significant cash or has other things to commit to right now, I don't see why he should leave a retake on the table.

lampshade0520
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby lampshade0520 » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:54 pm

ManoftheHour wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not saying don't go to Cal. I'm saying retake the LSAT when there is no downside but possible upside. If they don't score higher, then just go to Cal.


I don't get what there is to argue about. How is this wrong? Let's say OP gets a 120. Go to Berkeley. Let's say he gets a 175. Reconsider, but he can still go to Berkeley if he wants. Unless he's making significant cash or has other things to commit to right now, I don't see why he should leave a retake on the table.


I guess I could retake but it's hard for me to do all that studying again esp since I pretty much ran out of practice tests and haven't ever consistently hit above 170 (never even cracked 172) and i worked my ass off for this test. Maybe now that the pressure is off a bit I could perform better on test day, but it's not like i was hitting high scores even in my PTs. And say I did get a few points higher, best outcomes like others have listed don't seem THAT much more appealing than the offer i have now. not to mention, i'd have to pay for all those applications again and take another year off slaving as an underpaid legal asst. i know i don't HAVE to go to law school in the fall, but i'd really like to. but on the flip side, would i regret not exhausting every last option i have?

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Kronk
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby Kronk » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:01 pm

BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:WTF is this guaranteed big law stuff?

Also, just because 21K at Boalt is a great outcome for Boalt doesn't mean that the OP can't get something significantly better from another school.


Significantly better? Like what, a Hamilton or Ruby? 21K at Boalt is probably about as well as the OP will do unless he/she can get her score above a 175, breh.


60K at Penn. 120K at Cornell. 150K at NU. The list of objectively better options goes on and on broseph. I have a sneaking suspicion you go to Cal...


lol @ 60K at Penn being objectively better.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:07 pm

lampshade0520 wrote:
ManoftheHour wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I'm not saying don't go to Cal. I'm saying retake the LSAT when there is no downside but possible upside. If they don't score higher, then just go to Cal.


I don't get what there is to argue about. How is this wrong? Let's say OP gets a 120. Go to Berkeley. Let's say he gets a 175. Reconsider, but he can still go to Berkeley if he wants. Unless he's making significant cash or has other things to commit to right now, I don't see why he should leave a retake on the table.


I guess I could retake but it's hard for me to do all that studying again esp since I pretty much ran out of practice tests and haven't ever consistently hit above 170 (never even cracked 172) and i worked my ass off for this test. Maybe now that the pressure is off a bit I could perform better on test day, but it's not like i was hitting high scores even in my PTs. And say I did get a few points higher, best outcomes like others have listed don't seem THAT much more appealing than the offer i have now. not to mention, i'd have to pay for all those applications again and take another year off slaving as an underpaid legal asst. i know i don't HAVE to go to law school in the fall, but i'd really like to. but on the flip side, would i regret not exhausting every last option i have?


You luckboxed your way to a Berkeley acceptance with really solid money (for them at least), I would see if the horseshoe is still there and give it one more crack. Maybe you pull a 175 out of nowhere, who knows?

That was my whole point, there is no downside but still upside. And if I doesn't work out, enjoy Cal.

BigZuck
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Re: Boalt v Retake

Postby BigZuck » Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:08 pm

Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
Kronk wrote:
BigZuck wrote:WTF is this guaranteed big law stuff?

Also, just because 21K at Boalt is a great outcome for Boalt doesn't mean that the OP can't get something significantly better from another school.


Significantly better? Like what, a Hamilton or Ruby? 21K at Boalt is probably about as well as the OP will do unless he/she can get her score above a 175, breh.


60K at Penn. 120K at Cornell. 150K at NU. The list of objectively better options goes on and on broseph. I have a sneaking suspicion you go to Cal...


lol @ 60K at Penn being objectively better.


Your MVPB trolling makes me sick. Objectively.




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