Top Law Schools

Regulus wrote:Doorkeeper, although I usually agree with most of the stuff you post on this site, I kind of wonder why you feel that the OP's options "suck" in this case. Unless you are working under the presumption that sticker at HYS also sucks, I am not sure how can justify your statement. Based on this, which is in turn based on the ABA data, the difference between Penn (77.04%), Harvard (71.36%), and Chicago (70.70%) in terms of BigLaw + AIII placement is within 6%. For article III clerkships alone, the difference between Harvard (17.80%), Chicago (14.42%), and Penn (10.37%) is still about 6%. I understand that YHS are >>> everything else, but if you consider what the OP has as "sucks," I wonder how you justify one of the top 3 to someone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. With IBR and now PAYE, debt-pwnage is becoming less and less of an issue even if the amount of student loans is astronomical.

Oh no you di'int.

Penn and I don't think it's very close.

These options look rough compared to what you'll normally see in these polls, but clearly OP has factored in interest and seemingly has a realistic idea of what the actual COA will be at each school.

Regulus wrote:Doorkeeper, although I usually agree with most of the stuff you post on this site, I kind of wonder why you feel that the OP's options "suck" in this case. Unless you are working under the presumption that sticker at HYS also sucks, I am not sure how can justify your statement. Based on this, which is in turn based on the ABA data, the difference between Penn (77.04%), Harvard (71.36%), and Chicago (70.70%) in terms of BigLaw + AIII placement is within 6%. For article III clerkships alone, the difference between Harvard (17.80%), Chicago (14.42%), and Penn (10.37%) is still about 6%. I understand that YHS are >>> everything else, but if you consider what the OP has as "sucks," I wonder how you justify one of the top 3 to someone who doesn't qualify for need-based aid. With IBR and now PAYE, debt-pwnage is becoming less and less of an issue even if the amount of student loans is astronomical.

1. Biglaw + AIII is not a great metric for satisfactory job placements considering the amount of students at HYS that go into other areas immediately after law school (re: gov and PI). Harvard has double the PI than Penn (11% to 5%) and more than double the federal and international government work (11% to 5%). Add those up and you're looking at more like an 18-20% difference in placement. Chicago is close to Harvard on most of these metrics, but consistently a few points behind. I'm cool with paying for almost all of Chicago, but I just think $280k in debt is a really, really high sum here. I suggested that OP use his/her Penn money to get a scholarship out of Chicago, and if he can get $30-50k here then Chicago seems ok.

2. I wouldn't say HYS at sticker is wonderful either, but I think the doors that open to these students in a variety of different formats that is often simply unavailable to the Penn kids (and much less available to the C kids), pushes the bar for these three schools. If you live and die by academia or prestigious bigfed, well then that $300k in debt is the only way you're going to achieve it and you have to deal. But if your goal is simply biglaw (and a clerkship if it's nice), then why get into the crazy sums of debt when it's not necessary with a retake/reapply?

3. I admit that I don't know much about debt repayment, so I can't comment on how much of an "issue" it is with IBR and PAYE.

UtilityMonster wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:All of these options suck.

No they don't. This site has become so elitist it is just absurd. The OP will likely have better outcomes in his career than at least 90% of people who attend law school. Paying down debt is undesirable, but is worth doing with a degree from a top ten law school.

+1.

In fact, its so elitist, even Ivies with scholarships are deplored as "suck"y options. unbelievable. OP, CONGRATULATIONS on getting into all of these amazing schools. You and your family should be very proud. you will be very successful at chicago or penn (don't go to uva or ut). choose whichever school you like better, based on student body, location, profs, ect. The numbers are too close to be definitive, and both are very prestigious and will carry you where you want to go. again, be proud of yourself, and enjoy a great law school next year.

jbagelboy wrote:

UtilityMonster wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:All of these options suck.

No they don't. This site has become so elitist it is just absurd. The OP will likely have better outcomes in his career than at least 90% of people who attend law school. Paying down debt is undesirable, but is worth doing with a degree from a top ten law school.

+1.

In fact, its so elitist, even Ivies with scholarships are deplored as "suck"y options. unbelievable. OP, CONGRATULATIONS on getting into all of these amazing schools. You and your family should be very proud. you will be very successful at chicago or penn (don't go to uva or ut). choose whichever school you like better, based on student body, location, profs, ect. The numbers are too close to be definitive, and both are very prestigious and will carry you where you want to go. again, be proud of yourself, and enjoy a great law school next year.

There is no guarantee that the OP will be very successful at either place. Even Penn has people end up unemployed or not working as a lawyer. I'll admit saying the options are sucky is overstating it, but a retake and better options/schollys wouldn't be a bad decision. That's a lot of debt to walk around with.

.

Damn, I leave TLS for a few days and return to find Regulus has dropped the hammer.

After doorkeeper's initial assessment of my prospects, I had gone into hiding to reassess whether I should go to law school or enter AutoZone's store management program.

Just when I was headed to retail, here comes Regulus to save the day.

*Edit* Pardon my inability to keep posters straight!

NoodleyOne wrote:

jbagelboy wrote:

UtilityMonster wrote:

Doorkeeper wrote:All of these options suck.

No they don't. This site has become so elitist it is just absurd. The OP will likely have better outcomes in his career than at least 90% of people who attend law school. Paying down debt is undesirable, but is worth doing with a degree from a top ten law school.

+1.

In fact, its so elitist, even Ivies with scholarships are deplored as "suck"y options. unbelievable. OP, CONGRATULATIONS on getting into all of these amazing schools. You and your family should be very proud. you will be very successful at chicago or penn (don't go to uva or ut). choose whichever school you like better, based on student body, location, profs, ect. The numbers are too close to be definitive, and both are very prestigious and will carry you where you want to go. again, be proud of yourself, and enjoy a great law school next year.

There is no guarantee that the OP will be very successful at either place. Even Penn has people end up unemployed or not working as a lawyer. I'll admit saying the options are sucky is overstating it, but a retake and better options/schollys wouldn't be a bad decision. That's a lot of debt to walk around with.

Every school has people that end up unemployed or not working as a lawyer. That doesn't mean shit. The point is, it is a tiny number that have truly bad outcomes and it is obviously an acceptable risk if one wants to be an attorney.

Op already has a 170 so its up to him if he thinks retaking is worth it. For a 3.3/170 splitter these results are actually quite good.

ChampagnePapi wrote:Op already has a 170 so its up to him if he thinks retaking is worth it. For a 3.3/170 splitter these results are actually quite good.

A 3.3/174 will not get him in HYS nor will it get him money at CCN so he should just go to one if these schools. Advice to retake is shit advice.

UtilityMonster wrote:

ChampagnePapi wrote:Op already has a 170 so its up to him if he thinks retaking is worth it. For a 3.3/170 splitter these results are actually quite good.

A 3.3/174 will not get him in HYS nor will it get him money at CCN so he should just go to one if these schools. Advice to retake is shit advice.

I tend to agree - the returns to retaking once you hit the 170's are very low. And as a splitter even getting a 175+ doesn't guarantee better results. Shit, I think his results are better than mine, and I had better stats.

ChampagnePapi wrote:

UtilityMonster wrote:

ChampagnePapi wrote:Op already has a 170 so its up to him if he thinks retaking is worth it. For a 3.3/170 splitter these results are actually quite good.

A 3.3/174 will not get him in HYS nor will it get him money at CCN so he should just go to one if these schools. Advice to retake is shit advice.

I tend to agree - the returns to retaking once you hit the 170's are very low. And as a splitter even getting a 175+ doesn't guarantee better results. Shit, I think his results are better than mine, and I had better stats.

MAF

Badges!?!

Crowing wrote:
MAF

Badges!?!

I don't know what MAF means, so I looked it up.

Midland/Odessa Regional Airport
Meal Assistance for Families
Michigan AIDS Foundation

Am I close on any of those, Crowing?

Badges!?! wrote:

Crowing wrote:
MAF

Badges!?!

I don't know what MAF means, so I looked it up.

Midland/Odessa Regional Airport
Meal Assistance for Families
Michigan AIDS Foundation

Am I close on any of those, Crowing?

Marc-Andre Fleury