Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

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Br3v
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Br3v » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:48 am

Do you think there is anything to be said about Biglaw firms knowing that they can in essence pay what they want and as long as its still the best option ($ wise) for recent grads that they will still have kids fighting to land a market paying job? From what I gather about associate responsibilities (from TLS), everyone makes it seem like a monkey could do it, so I can't imagine biglaw firms would be too afraid of "not attracting talent" to their indiviual firm? Then again, inherently a "market paying" salary has to have something providing upward pressure other than partners kind heartedness. What is that upward pressure?

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bk1
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby bk1 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:55 am

Br3v wrote:Do you think there is anything to be said about Biglaw firms knowing that they can in essence pay what they want and as long as its still the best option ($ wise) for recent grads that they will still have kids fighting to land a market paying job? From what I gather about associate responsibilities (from TLS), everyone makes it seem like a monkey could do it, so I can't imagine biglaw firms would be too afraid of "not attracting talent" to their indiviual firm? Then again, inherently a "market paying" salary has to have something providing upward pressure other than partners kind heartedness. What is that upward pressure?

They are trying to attract prestige.

Big Dog
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Big Dog » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:56 am

DON'T GO TO ANY NON-HYS SCHOOL AT STICKER THOUGH.


It's all about your opportunity cost. If you know you want to be a lawyer and your two options are TTT or Penn at $200k, I'd take Penn every time.


concur with Trip in the second quote box. (dunno how to get the name inside.)

I'm not so sure that the T7 (+P) is still not worth sticker. Sure, a BIG scholly to Duke or NU may easily beat sticker at NYU, but someone who wants to be permanently be in the tri-state area....
Last edited by Big Dog on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Sheffield
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Sheffield » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:56 am

The part some folks are missing. Law Firms compete for talent. Think of it in terms of sports teams. Or the draft. Not that hard.

For every position there are far more applicants than open slots. Nevertheless, teams still pay BIG $$$$$$. Law is not so different.

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haus
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby haus » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:02 am

romothesavior wrote:Except for the hundreds of thousands of dollars of non-dischargeable student loan debt that we're talking about here.

I don't think TLS fails to recognize the plight of other industries and professions. The average American has been getting screwed for years.

But we are seeing similar dangers in other professional programs as well. Doctors, MBAs, and even some other fields where people are drawn to Masters (or other post graduate education programs) are racking up big non-dischargeable debt in hopes of finding a niche that is going to work for them. None of theses bets are a sure thing. Not making the bet at all has its own risks as well.

Big Dog
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Big Dog » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:16 am

This is how disillusioned we become when people with high critical thinking faculties


IMO, that is exactly the problem. Few 0L's really have critical thinking skills. Such skills are not a barrier to entry to LS.

(Indeed, don't law schools claim to teach you how to think like a lawyer? What they are really teaching for the next three years are critical thinking skills.)

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thelawyler
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby thelawyler » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:18 am

haus wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Except for the hundreds of thousands of dollars of non-dischargeable student loan debt that we're talking about here.

I don't think TLS fails to recognize the plight of other industries and professions. The average American has been getting screwed for years.

But we are seeing similar dangers in other professional programs as well. Doctors, MBAs, and even some other fields where people are drawn to Masters (or other post graduate education programs) are racking up big non-dischargeable debt in hopes of finding a niche that is going to work for them. None of theses bets are a sure thing. Not making the bet at all has its own risks as well.


And do med students really know that they won't hate being a doctor? There are similar ricks of hating your job in any of these professional schools, save maybe top MBAs who have experience in that field.

Big Dog
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Big Dog » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:25 am

But we are seeing similar dangers in other professional programs as well. Doctors, MBAs


Except for the simple fact that doctors are assured of a job. (In contrast, even some Harvard Law grads are looking for work.)

And unlike a law degree, at least an MBA is portable.

(or other post graduate education programs)


And such folks have even fewer critical thinking skills than 0L's. :roll:

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haus
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby haus » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:38 am

Big Dog wrote:
But we are seeing similar dangers in other professional programs as well. Doctors, MBAs


Except for the simple fact that doctors are assured of a job. (In contrast, even some Harvard Law grads are looking for work.)

And unlike a law degree, at least an MBA is portable.

(or other post graduate education programs)


And such folks have even fewer critical thinking skills than 0L's. :roll:

The traditional path for Doctors is not assured.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/08/smallbu ... index.html

While I suspect that those that fail at small/solo practice could likely find employment for large hospitals, or medical service organizations, but I suspect that the environment created by theses places may not be what many Doctors had hoped for.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:25 pm

Sheffield wrote:The part some folks are missing. Law Firms compete for talent. Think of it in terms of sports teams. Or the draft. Not that hard.

For every position there are far more applicants than open slots. Nevertheless, teams still pay BIG $$$$$$. Law is not so different.

Is this a joke? Law is totally, completely different. Sports teams pay big bucks for elite talent that provides a measurable difference above replacement level. Otherwise, they pay league minimum (which is only so high because it's collectively bargained for, another difference). If you don't add anything to the table that literally hundreds or even thousands of other law students can't also add, there is no incentive to pay you any more than they need to. Law students are far more fungible than center fielders. How many billables above replacements do you think the average UVA median student is worth?

Sheffield wrote:Given that less than 5% of employees earn $100K a year, a successful T14 outcome is still a good idea. Sorry that it costs, but hey, if you started a business tomorrow it would likely cost upwards of $150K to get it off the ground. Where does one get a $150K loan to start a business, sometimes nowhere. Keep in mind that $172K today is what $100K was in ’90. To me, $172K for the chance to be in the top 95% of earners still sounds like a pretty good deal. But yes, LS like biz, have their risks.

You're neglecting that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, while debt for starting a business is. When your business goes south, that debt won't follow you around, collecting interest, for the rest of your life; if it did, far fewer people would thinking starting a business was a good idea.

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Sheffield
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Sheffield » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:52 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:....there is no incentive to pay you any more than they need to. Law students are far more fungible than center fielders.

Let’s make this our secret. If not law firms will bypass the T14 entirely and only hire from Tier-5 at $25K a year, because as you say, what the heck, they are all the same.

JusticeHarlan wrote:You're neglecting that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, while debt for starting a business is. When your business goes south, that debt won't follow you around, collecting interest, for the rest of your life; if it did, far fewer people would thinking starting a business was a good idea.

If you do not have the brass to man-up, and you don’t, feel free to bypass law and stick with those fun-filled bankruptcy options.

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MyNameIsFlynn!
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby MyNameIsFlynn! » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:58 pm

Sheffield wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:....there is no incentive to pay you any more than they need to. Law students are far more fungible than center fielders.

Let’s make this our secret. If not law firms will bypass the T14 entirely and only hire from Tier-5 at $25K a year, because as you say, what the heck, they are all the same.

JusticeHarlan wrote:You're neglecting that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, while debt for starting a business is. When your business goes south, that debt won't follow you around, collecting interest, for the rest of your life; if it did, far fewer people would thinking starting a business was a good idea.

If you do not have the brass to man-up, and you don’t, feel free to bypass law and stick with those fun-filled bankruptcy options.


Thank god BigLaw hiring is just as much about the degree than the critical thinking and intellectual abilities of the applicant. If clients were suddenly to prefer (insert T4 of choice here) over T14 grads or refused to pay XXX an hour for dat T14 lawyer then we'd be in BIG trouble.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Sheffield wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:....there is no incentive to pay you any more than they need to. Law students are far more fungible than center fielders.

Let’s make this our secret. If not law firms will bypass the T14 entirely and only hire from Tier-5 at $25K a year, because as you say, what the heck, they are all the same.
"More fungible" doesn't mean "totally fungible," but, yes, there are plenty of students in non-T14 schools who could do essentially the same work as the kid from NYU. Think about how silly the admissions criteria are: a 3.8 in liberal arts from an easy school has a better chance of getting into a given law school than someone with a 3.5 in a tough major at a tough school. Does that make the 3.8 kid more "talented?" Or think about how many people make gains when retaking the LSAT? Does someone who jumped from a 166 to a 172 gain "talent" in a sense that matters to a law firm because they did a prep course and learned how to chart out logic games?

If anything, firms are competing for prestige, so they can have shiny resumes on their website, but even that's a dicey proposition.

Sheffield wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:You're neglecting that student debt is not dischargeable in bankruptcy, while debt for starting a business is. When your business goes south, that debt won't follow you around, collecting interest, for the rest of your life; if it did, far fewer people would thinking starting a business was a good idea.

If you do not have the brass to man-up, and you don’t, feel free to bypass law and stick with those fun-filled bankruptcy options.
Ooooh, I like this argument. I can justify, well, anything by saying "have the brass to man-up" when someone points out the potentially calamitous effects. I don't need logic, data, or anything like that.

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Clearly
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Clearly » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:19 pm

I love how thorough everyone is with their points, the wealth of knowledge/various opinions on TLS is a goldmine. Thank you, that is all.

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Sheffield
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Sheffield » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:23 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:Ooooh, I like this argument. I can justify, well, anything by saying "have the brass to man-up" when someone points out the potentially calamitous effects. I don't need logic, data, or anything like that.


Thanks for pointing that out, seriously, thanks so much. Because no one going to LS has ever contemplated the possibility of a potentially calamitous debt ridden ending. So you were right, no need for that tacky "man up" cliché… up until reading your well thought out observation we were totally convinced Disney wrote a happy outcome for all law students.

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sinfiery
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:56 pm

NYstate wrote:Lol. What difference does it make


I'm genuinely curious what biglaw associates do after they leave leave biglaw. The burden of your debt is magnified when you are fresh out of school but the qualifications you paid for will pay dividend your entire lives. Or maybe they don't, NO STATS for this. (Well, just 1 study from UVA but it is outdated)

I am very curious to see how the different TLS classes feel about their investments 5 and 10 years out.

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TripTrip
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby TripTrip » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:07 pm

I've been tracking this thread because I think it's an interesting discussion. However, the primary arguers are using so much sarcasm now that I'm not sure who is trying to make what point.

At least I think they're using sarcasm. It's hard to tell. :?

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Justin Genious
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Justin Genious » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:25 pm

Lol at t10

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:32 pm

sinfiery wrote:I'm genuinely curious what biglaw associates do after they leave leave biglaw. The burden of your debt is magnified when you are fresh out of school but the qualifications you paid for will pay dividend your entire lives. Or maybe they don't, NO STATS for this. (Well, just 1 study from UVA but it is outdated)



Why don't you ask this guy?
Or this guy?

Not saying these are representative of the entire ex-associate population, but while some have great success in-house or at smaller firms, many don't.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tim0thy222 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:39 pm

Ghost93 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:I'm genuinely curious what biglaw associates do after they leave leave biglaw. The burden of your debt is magnified when you are fresh out of school but the qualifications you paid for will pay dividend your entire lives. Or maybe they don't, NO STATS for this. (Well, just 1 study from UVA but it is outdated)



Why don't you ask this guy?
Or this guy?

Not saying these are representative of the entire ex-associate population, but while some have great success in-house or at smaller firms, many don't.


Wow those are really enlightening and terrifying articles. Thank you for sharing those.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:47 pm

I don't have a source, but I've heard several people say that the average time big law is 2-3 years (close to the average time in nfl for football). I would live to see a graph of average salary 1, 5, 10 years our from each school. I would believe that the median yearly salary of a t14 grad is 100-125k.

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thelawyler
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby thelawyler » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:50 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I don't have a source, but I've heard several people say that the average time big law is 2-3 years (close to the average time in nfl for football). I would live to see a graph of average salary 1, 5, 10 years our from each school. I would believe that the median yearly salary of a t14 grad is 100-125k.

I believe UVA is more like mid 200s.

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sinfiery
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:50 pm

Ghost93 wrote:Why don't you ask this guy?
Or this guy?

Not saying these are representative of the entire ex-associate population, but while some have great success in-house or at smaller firms, many don't.

:(

First, I wish I knew when that guy sent that email. Second, I wish I knew what he was up to today.

thelawyler wrote: I believe UVA is more like mid 200s.


Yeah, but the survey took place in 1990 IIRC

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:51 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:I don't have a source, but I've heard several people say that the average time big law is 2-3 years (close to the average time in nfl for football). I would live to see a graph of average salary 1, 5, 10 years our from each school. I would believe that the median yearly salary of a t14 grad is 100-125k.


Two years seems short--most two-year associates aren't going to have exit options after just two years. My impression was that people started to leave in years 3, 4, and 5.

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:57 pm

sinfiery wrote:
Ghost93 wrote:Why don't you ask this guy?
Or this guy?

Not saying these are representative of the entire ex-associate population, but while some have great success in-house or at smaller firms, many don't.

:(

First, I wish I knew when that guy sent that email. Second, I wish I knew what he was up to today.

Both blogs were from February, so like a few months ago.




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