Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:51 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
moonman157
Posts: 1039
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:26 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby moonman157 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:54 pm

Tagging for all the wonderful information in this thread. Thanks everyone!

User avatar
thesealocust
Posts: 8442
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:18 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Do smaller firms have better hours/lifestyle? Or if you do litigation are you going to be a slave the rest of your life unless you go into govt (since there aren't as many in-house options)?


It's so hard to generalize.

Clients can have crazy demands. The biggest and best firms often means more dollars on the line, but not necessarily less demanding clients.

It's not like at a small firm clients suddenly become deeply understanding of your personal life and try not to bother you at off hours.

Having said that, the biggest/best/newyorkiest firms probably take on more work, with more type-a personalities, and on average more type-a clients. But that's painting with an awfully broad brush.

Master Tofu
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:43 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Master Tofu » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:22 pm

Work-life balance is an interesting question. As a lawyer, you are a service professional. The value you provide is the advice that you're able to offer. For probably upwards of 90% of the profession, at least at the higher ends of the legal practice, this advice will largely be fungible. What this means is that a good work product is a given; on top of doing good work, lawyers generally compete by providing better service/being more responsive, etc. This in turn creates unpredictable work schedules centered around external client demands, opposing counsel timelines, etc. This doesn't change from big firm to big firm.

If you go to a smaller law firm, your clients might be less sophisticated and hence less demanding. You still have to put in quite a bit of work thinking about ways to generate additional revenue because less sophisticated clients tend not to be a recurring source of revenue/harder to collect on, etc. This profession is very labor-intensive - you should come in with the expectation that you will be working a lot.

Things might be different with government and with in-house work in that you don't have to compete for business in those scenarios but it would still be prudent to aggressively network. The risk is if and when you do get laid-off for situations outside of your control, you're not in a position to compete for business and instead remain reliant on the ability of others to create a job for yourself.

User avatar
Sheffield
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:07 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Sheffield » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:39 pm

Smaller firm [~50 attorneys] but with an impressive list of fortune 500 clients. Anyone here been in that situation who can shed light on what to expect other than working closely with partners.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:17 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:Not offing an opinion here, only asking a question. What happens should the hammer drop after 3 years.

This. (Or this.)

A little irresponsible to even mention those programs that shall not be named, because people could unreasonably rely on them and they could be gone tomorrow.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:36 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
kingjones59
Posts: 168
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:28 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby kingjones59 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:38 pm

Lets be honest though, the government can not afford to get rid of these programs. With the percentage of student loans in default, the government will always prefer you to pay what you can afford rather than nothing at all-which is actually the real reason for these programs, the assistance it gives to students is just a product of it.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:41 pm

When the govt is hit with the repayment costs in 20 years, I could definitely see a change in policy.


You may be able to make payments your entire life at the PAYE rate but I wouldn't count on being debt free after 20 years.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:51 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:57 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:This has been discussed in a lot of detail in another thread (as you probably know), and nobody knows wtf the government will do. However, although I could see them taking action as we draw near the 20-year mark, I highly doubt that they would change things up for those who've already been making payments for many years. My guess (and hope) is that people who are already "in the system" would be allowed to keep paying as normal and receive forgiveness, and the gov would just prevent new people from entering the program.

Yeah I agree and hope for the sake of peoples lives that is how it plays out.

I was just pointing out that once we reach the point where the principal forgiveness kicks in, these programs will likely be running at a deficit.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:00 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:When the govt is hit with the repayment costs in 20 years, I could definitely see a change in policy.


You may be able to make payments your entire life at the PAYE rate but I wouldn't count on being debt free after 20 years.

This has been discussed in a lot of detail in another thread (as you probably know), and nobody knows wtf the government will do. However, although I could see them taking action as we draw near the 20-year mark, I highly doubt that they would change things up for those who've already been making payments for many years. My guess (and hope) is that people who are already "in the system" would be allowed to keep paying as normal and receive forgiveness, and the gov would just prevent new people from entering the program.

I think the gov could basically do whatever it felt like and nobody would pay attention or care. Not a salient issue. One millennial will write a NYT op-ed and there will be 10 bashing the spoiled babby.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:07 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:14 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think the gov could basically do whatever it felt like and nobody would pay attention or care. Not a salient issue. One millennial will write a NYT op-ed and there will be 10 bashing the spoiled babby.

Mr. Joad,

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just look at how many people cared that interest rates on federal loans were doubled. To say that "nobody cares" is a blatant, no-good, malicious lie.

Best regards,

kappycaft1

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... ular/0/2/0

Tons of un-salient issues on that site. Recount Venezuelan elections has more. LOL.

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:14 pm

Tom Joad wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
sinfiery wrote:When the govt is hit with the repayment costs in 20 years, I could definitely see a change in policy.


You may be able to make payments your entire life at the PAYE rate but I wouldn't count on being debt free after 20 years.

This has been discussed in a lot of detail in another thread (as you probably know), and nobody knows wtf the government will do. However, although I could see them taking action as we draw near the 20-year mark, I highly doubt that they would change things up for those who've already been making payments for many years. My guess (and hope) is that people who are already "in the system" would be allowed to keep paying as normal and receive forgiveness, and the gov would just prevent new people from entering the program.

I think the gov could basically do whatever it felt like and nobody would pay attention or care. Not a salient issue. One millennial will write a NYT op-ed and there will be 10 bashing the spoiled babby.

Not in 20 years, though. We'll be starting to get some real representation in congress and the boomers will be surviving on our old-person transfer taxes receiving the Social Security that they deserve after faithfully paying into the system.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see IBR/PAYE become a backdoor to the well-publicly-funded educational system we should have like every other advanced country.

User avatar
beepboopbeep
Posts: 1230
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby beepboopbeep » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:15 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think the gov could basically do whatever it felt like and nobody would pay attention or care. Not a salient issue. One millennial will write a NYT op-ed and there will be 10 bashing the spoiled babby.

Mr. Joad,

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just look at how many people cared that interest rates on federal loans were doubled. To say that "nobody cares" is a blatant, no-good, malicious lie.

Best regards,

kappycaft1


39 whole people??

User avatar
sinfiery
Posts: 3308
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:55 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:15 pm

:cry: :lol: :cry: :lol:

User avatar
NoodleyOne
Posts: 2358
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:15 pm

Whoosh.

dixiecupdrinking
Posts: 3139
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:16 pm

beepboopbeep wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
Tom Joad wrote:I think the gov could basically do whatever it felt like and nobody would pay attention or care. Not a salient issue. One millennial will write a NYT op-ed and there will be 10 bashing the spoiled babby.

Mr. Joad,

You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. Just look at how many people cared that interest rates on federal loans were doubled. To say that "nobody cares" is a blatant, no-good, malicious lie.

Best regards,

kappycaft1


39 whole people??

I assume he's being facetious, but this similar one has 200,000: http://signon.org/sign/support-the-student-loan-6

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:16 pm

NoodleyOne wrote:Whoosh.

I didn't technically get wooshed. I thought it was 99,000, not 39.

20141023
Posts: 3072
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:17 am

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby 20141023 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:17 pm

.
Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ph5354a
Posts: 1599
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:40 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby ph5354a » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:24 pm

I meant to tag this thread, ended up tagging the Regret Law School thread. At least it was good for some laughs.

Thanks for all the helpful analysis, Reg.

noodle64322
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:43 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby noodle64322 » Mon May 20, 2013 1:40 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:
SportsFan wrote:Part I bolded is definitely much different than I expected. Somewhat reassuring, tbh.

Actually, I need to make a correction: The entry-level associate departure rate for firms with 501+ attorneys within 5 years was 64%, whereas it was 69% for firms with 251-500 attorneys, 59% for firms with 101-250 attorneys, and 68% for firms with 2-100 attorneys.

Ah. Still, only a quarter gone within 3 years is a lot better than the "20% of your class leaves each year" stuff that I'd read on here before.

Well, despite my post above, both the mean and median annual attrition rates are actually about twenty percent for firms with more than 251 attorneys; it is slightly less for firms with 101-250 attorneys (it actually states this in NALP's report). The ranges are crazy too; some firms only have rates of like 13%, whereas others are as high as 29% in the 501+ category. :shock:


Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I was just curious: If attrition has a mean/median of about 20 percent/yr., does the attrition rate that you mentioned include laterals? Otherwise, is it just that the lower attrition percentages in years 1-3 are skewed by the spike in years 4 and 5, for a class's cohort?

User avatar
IAFG
Posts: 6665
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:26 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby IAFG » Thu May 23, 2013 6:12 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see IBR/PAYE become a backdoor to the well-publicly-funded educational system we should have like every other advanced country.

It does indeed seem where things are headed, which is disturbing. The schools with the audacity to charge the most tuition and admit as many gullible people as possible win, state schools fighting to keep tuition low lose. And PE firms investing in for-profit education make out like bandits.

User avatar
Tom Joad
Posts: 4542
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:56 pm

Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Thu May 23, 2013 6:48 am

IAFG wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see IBR/PAYE become a backdoor to the well-publicly-funded educational system we should have like every other advanced country.

It does indeed seem where things are headed, which is disturbing. The schools with the audacity to charge the most tuition and admit as many gullible people as possible win, state schools fighting to keep tuition low lose. And PE firms investing in for-profit education make out like bandits.

+1

IBR/PAYE might be really good for some people. And I am happy for them because it is truly a lifesaver. But it could be the end of the educational system as we know it.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 6 guests