Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:33 pm

Ghost93 wrote:
SportsFan wrote:Well, no real statistics are kept on it, but you can find plenty of anecdotes if you spend enough time in the employment forums. But yeah, it seems going in-house is the big thing. Some people also lateral to other firms (seems to generally be if they're in an "in demand" practice).

So what? There are also plenty of anecdotes of former biglawyers either unemployed or working in shitlaw.


If this ever happens to me, I am going to open up my own shop and make sure all of the proceeds of my "shitlaw" practice go to me, myself and I.

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:38 pm

Don't underestimate the impact of much better data, national news coverage of the law school scam and the efforts of LST and prof campos. People now understand how even top schools manipulate statistics. People now have a much better sense of that a school name doesn't guarantee a career.

I think too maybe there is more of an understanding that the job market is fiercely competitive. Failure to get jobs used to be attributed to terrible social skills, but people get that poor bidding and other errors can sink a person.

People used to say that it just depends on your risk tolerance but most people assume that they will be on the right side of the odds.

Also people are understanding that PI and government jobs are very competitive so relying on LRAP as a backup is not a smart plan.

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:45 pm

Br3v wrote:
banjo wrote:Biglaw salaries have also been the same for 6-7 years, despite rising inflation/tuition.


I know it's naive, but I feel like if Biglaw salaries ever rise, this cycle of inoming 1Ls will be one of the first hiring classes to get the benefit of increased market pay.



I'm just curious here. What market forces are working towards an increase in big law salaries?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:50 pm

NYstate wrote:Also people are understanding that PI and government jobs are very competitive so relying on LRAP as a backup is not a smart plan.

Yeah, this is a good point. I went in actually intending to do LRAP-qualifying work, but by 2L year had realized just how risky that would be relative to just locking down a firm job. The low salaries weren't a deal breaker, but the low salaries coupled with the risk of not finding something was too much downside. If I had understood more about that going in, I might not have gone at all, and would have at least approached the decision differently.
NYstate wrote:
Br3v wrote:
banjo wrote:Biglaw salaries have also been the same for 6-7 years, despite rising inflation/tuition.


I know it's naive, but I feel like if Biglaw salaries ever rise, this cycle of inoming 1Ls will be one of the first hiring classes to get the benefit of increased market pay.



I'm just curious here. What market forces are working towards an increase in big law salaries?

You mean other than the unbridled generosity of law firm partners, who, after all, don't already resent the fact that the six-figure salaries paid to know-nothing first-year associates come straight out of their own pockets?

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sinfiery
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:00 pm

NYstate wrote:I'm just curious here. What market forces are working towards an increase in big law salaries?

Lowering # of applicants, especially high LSAT scoring applicants because of the lack of relatively good risk-reward ratio.


COA isn't going to go down. Either they up pay or likely keep seeing a statistically worse and worse applicant pool

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:17 pm

sinfiery wrote:
NYstate wrote:I'm just curious here. What market forces are working towards an increase in big law salaries?

Lowering # of applicants, especially high LSAT scoring applicants because of the lack of relatively good risk-reward ratio.


COA isn't going to go down. Either they up pay or likely keep seeing a statistically worse and worse applicant pool

See, law firms don't care about LSAT scores. As long as there are enough top students from schools to meet demand, which may itself either level off or drop, firms don't care. They really don't. It isn't even as if being a decent associate means you have to be that smart. They use schools and grades as signaling devices. They assume the school is weeding out the best candidates. If the school is going to admit someone, the firm isn't going to look into why that person was admitted. If that person then gets the grades, the firm is happy to consider them.

I would be shocked if many partners know how much tuition is now unless they have kids going to law school. I had lunch with a partner who interviews for Chicago and she didn't believe that students would take on 6 figures of debt to attend. The big law salary reflects cost of living more than it has anything to do with student debt.

You might have noticed that big law is nowhere near the position it was in pre-ITE. They didn't even give spring bonuses last year in an effort to stay even. They aren't looking to pay anyone more money than they need to. In fact, I saw an NALP study that showed salaries were dropping.

Here is the link: http://www.nalp.org/2012_associate_salaries
Last edited by NYstate on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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sinfiery
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:28 pm

Firms care about a name on a resume because it represents an assumed quality of candidate. If that quality of candidate falls, they will care. I think. I may be wrong. Maybe they actually just care about the name and will be satisfied with anybody as long as they can tout they graduated from X university.


COL inherently takes into account the cost of qualifications to land said job you are computing COL for.

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IAFG
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:29 pm

When I first got to TLS I would have paid sticker for T13 and I still feel that way.

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IAFG
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:31 pm

sinfiery wrote:Firms care about a name on a resume because it represents an assumed quality of candidate. If that quality of candidate falls, they will care. I think. I may be wrong. Maybe they actually just care about the name and will be satisfied with anybody as long as they can tout they graduated from X university.

You're wrong. 10 years ago, the "quality" of candidate in GPA/LSAT terms was much lower. People who got into top schools with low 160s LSATs aren't going to be squeamish about hiring similarly credentialed people.

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sinfiery
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:32 pm

damn :(

that was a ticket to NYC 190

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bk1
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:37 pm

IAFG wrote:When I first got to TLS I would have paid sticker for T13 and I still feel that way.

This. Though I think the hivemind's shift is due to having more 3Ls and recent grads understanding and saying just how bad things are. Plus the fact that sticker is approaching 300k doesn't help either.

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:49 pm

sinfiery wrote:Firms care about a name on a resume because it represents an assumed quality of candidate. If that quality of candidate falls, they will care. I think. I may be wrong. Maybe they actually just care about the name and will be satisfied with anybody as long as they can tout they graduated from X university.

You realize the pyramid nature of big law means that attrition is built into the model. They don't expect longevity. ( though this model may itself be under attack, so who knows what may replace it in the next 3-5 years?)

The quality just isn't going to fall that much as long as the lure of a big income exists for liberal arts grads.

COL inherently takes into account the cost of qualifications to land said job you are computing COL for.


When I said cost of living, I mean what it will take to get a grad to work for them. I think big law could actually cut salaries by $15,000 and people lusting after a 6- figure salary would still pay sticker to go. They would just live farther out in Queens or take on another roommate.
People are already aware that market in cities other than NYC is a better deal, but NYC has the most jobs.

Firms have had huge decreases in revenue. They aren't looking to increase their fixed costs. I think the recession cost- cutting mentality is going to last for a while. If any more money gets paid to associates, I expect it will be through bonuses, not salary increased.
Last edited by NYstate on Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:50 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:When I first got to TLS I would have paid sticker for T13 and I still feel that way.

This. Though I think the hivemind's shift is due to having more 3Ls and recent grads understanding and saying just how bad things are. Plus the fact that sticker is approaching 300k doesn't help either.

Also that critical mass of people who are seeing those loans turn from hypothetical money into a chunk of real change.

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IAFG
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:51 pm

bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:When I first got to TLS I would have paid sticker for T13 and I still feel that way.

This. Though I think the hivemind's shift is due to having more 3Ls and recent grads understanding and saying just how bad things are. Plus the fact that sticker is approaching 300k doesn't help either.

It could be a lot more than $300k and I still think it would improve my career trajectory enough to justify spending the money. Not that it makes it okay for schools to ass-rape us.

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:10 pm

IAFG wrote:
bk1 wrote:
IAFG wrote:When I first got to TLS I would have paid sticker for T13 and I still feel that way.

This. Though I think the hivemind's shift is due to having more 3Ls and recent grads understanding and saying just how bad things are. Plus the fact that sticker is approaching 300k doesn't help either.

It could be a lot more than $300k and I still think it would improve my career trajectory enough to justify spending the money. Not that it makes it okay for schools to ass-rape us.


The only problem with this is that sticker at a T13 may not end up improving a persons career trajectory. It just doesn't work out for everyone as well as they hoped. I suppose that is where each person has to decide their own risk tolerance?

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby IAFG » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:41 pm

NYstate wrote:
The only problem with this is that sticker at a T13 may not end up improving a persons career trajectory. It just doesn't work out for everyone as well as they hoped. I suppose that is where each person has to decide their own risk tolerance?

It depends what you're starting with, and what you would consider an improvement.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:06 pm

IAFG wrote:
NYstate wrote:
The only problem with this is that sticker at a T13 may not end up improving a persons career trajectory. It just doesn't work out for everyone as well as they hoped. I suppose that is where each person has to decide their own risk tolerance?

It depends what you're starting with, and what you would consider an improvement.


So with the right outcome, it'd still be worth sticker to you?

What would be the right outcome? A few years of biglaw? Making it to partner? If just a few years in biglaw, then what after that?

It's like Romo mentioned above with still having 150k in loans after biglaw. Aside from making partner and raking in those millions (which I imagine is pretty uncommon), I can't figure out under what scenario sticker ever leads to a good financial situation. I am really excited about law school and legal practice, but I can't figure out how it doesn't leave me broke, and I'm trying to be responsible too.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Goodman » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:28 pm

Tim0thy222 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
NYstate wrote:
The only problem with this is that sticker at a T13 may not end up improving a persons career trajectory. It just doesn't work out for everyone as well as they hoped. I suppose that is where each person has to decide their own risk tolerance?

It depends what you're starting with, and what you would consider an improvement.


So with the right outcome, it'd still be worth sticker to you?

What would be the right outcome? A few years of biglaw? Making it to partner? If just a few years in biglaw, then what after that?

It's like Romo mentioned above with still having 150k in loans after biglaw. Aside from making partner and raking in those millions (which I imagine is pretty uncommon), I can't figure out under what scenario sticker ever leads to a good financial situation. I am really excited about law school and legal practice, but I can't figure out how it doesn't leave me broke, and I'm trying to be responsible too.


What if you make six figures (or close to it) the rest of your working life? Of course, that's not a guaranteed outcome, but wouldn't that be a good financial situation? Sticker at any school is a risk, but you don't have to make partner for the investment to be worth it.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:32 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:If this ever happens to me, I am going to open up my own shop and make sure all of the proceeds of my "shitlaw" practice go to me, myself and I.

There are law odds you would have any shitlaw skills.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Tim0thy222 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:53 pm

Goodman wrote:
What if you make six figures (or close to it) the rest of your working life? Of course, that's not a guaranteed outcome, but wouldn't that be a good financial situation? Sticker at any school is a risk, but you don't have to make partner for the investment to be worth it.


Yeah that actually makes sense.

Is that a common outcome? To leave biglaw to make 100k in a smaller firm? I guess I was starting to get the idea that the majority of people leave biglaw to wind up ambulance chasing for 50k. Is that a dramatization?

NYstate
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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby NYstate » Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:59 pm

Goodman wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
NYstate wrote:
The only problem with this is that sticker at a T13 may not end up improving a persons career trajectory. It just doesn't work out for everyone as well as they hoped. I suppose that is where each person has to decide their own risk tolerance?

It depends what you're starting with, and what you would consider an improvement.


So with the right outcome, it'd still be worth sticker to you?

What would be the right outcome? A few years of biglaw? Making it to partner? If just a few years in biglaw, then what after that?

It's like Romo mentioned above with still having 150k in loans after biglaw. Aside from making partner and raking in those millions (which I imagine is pretty uncommon), I can't figure out under what scenario sticker ever leads to a good financial situation. I am really excited about law school and legal practice, but I can't figure out how it doesn't leave me broke, and I'm trying to be responsible too.


What if you make six figures (or close to it) the rest of your working life? Of course, that's not a guaranteed outcome, but wouldn't that be a good financial situation? Sticker at any school is a risk, but you don't have to make partner for the investment to be worth it.


I wonder how many people actually make 6 figures for the rest of their life. I honestly have no idea. It doesn't seem like something to count on. Hard to know. People get pushed out of in- house jobs too, that isn't usually a lifetime gig.

I hav no advice on this other than to say there is no data. And even if there were solid data from boomers or even more recent grads, the rapid changes in the practice of law may make this data no longer applicable.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby Goodman » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:24 am

You're right. There is no data. Everything I know about life after biglaw comes from anecdotes on message boards. I just wanted to point out that there are good outcomes--even very good outcomes--that don't involve making partner.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby WokeUpInACar » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:30 am

I think for splitters with relatively useless UG degrees, sticker at t10 can definitely still be a good idea. What are these people going to do otherwise? Take a 30k/year entry level job? A 50+% chance at 160k sounds like a pretty sweet risk in this scenario. I also am skeptical of people with a few years of biglaw experience being permanently SHITLAWPWNED afterwards. I decided that t20 with $$$ was a better choice for me, but I definitely considered EDing one of MVP.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:42 am

There is actually data. It's labeled salary data and lawyers make, at a median (so 50% at least) = 112k - http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm


Now, going forward in our careers, will we be as lucky as the generation before us? That is where the instability comes in. Heck, will there even be a job available at all that labels what we do as being a "lawyer"? Some on TLS make it seem like even that is a harder gig to get after biglaw than getting biglaw itself.


There is precedent for this whole law school thing to work out financially (even if law school tuition is still way too damn high) but will it be the same moving forward? That uncertainty is what drives the fear for many of us, I believe.

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Re: Remember when sticker at T10 seemed like a good idea?

Postby WokeUpInACar » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:50 am

sinfiery wrote:There is actually data. It's labeled salary data and lawyers make, at a median (so 50% at least) = 112k - http://www.bls.gov/ooh/legal/lawyers.htm


Now, going forward in our careers, will we be as lucky as the generation before us? That is where the instability comes in. Heck, will there even be a job available at all that labels what we do as being a "lawyer"? Some on TLS make it seem like even that is a harder gig to get after biglaw than getting biglaw itself.


There is precedent for this whole law school thing to work out financially (even if law school tuition is still way too damn high) but will it be the same moving forward? That uncertainty is what drives the fear for many of us, I believe.

Yeah and while you noted the issues with that number, a t10 grad is coming from the top 5% of law schools.




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