Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

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Harvard or Yale

Poll ended at Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:21 pm

Harvard
11
14%
Yale
68
86%
 
Total votes: 79

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d330
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Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby d330 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:20 pm

It seems ridiculous to ask this question but TLS is good for giving out advice and often it's good advice. Also, I used this site to study for the LSAT, research schools, and all the other prep work, so it makes sense to go back to the well again. Here is the relevant info:

- Debt doesn't matter much, either way I'll come out at about the same rate.
- H has an edge cause I have a family and we're near there, but I figure since we're moving in 3 years regardless that will not be the deciding factor. (Though info on how New Haven is for folks with families is appreciated.)
- Post law school plans include clerkship, public interest work, and likely being a professor. Wouldn't rule out Big Law, but for a number of reasons it just isn't my primary focus.

Thanks for the advice.

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sinfiery
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby sinfiery » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:23 pm

d330 wrote:- Post law school plans include clerkship, public interest work, and likely being a professor. Wouldn't rule out Big Law, but for a number of reasons it just isn't my primary focus.

Unless New Haven is the worst place ever for families, I'm going to vote Yale for the advantage given your ambitions.

Gratz on the acceptances!

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ph14
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby ph14 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:24 pm

d330 wrote:It seems ridiculous to ask this question but TLS is good for giving out advice and often it's good advice. Also, I used this site to study for the LSAT, research schools, and all the other prep work, so it makes sense to go back to the well again. Here is the relevant info:

- Debt doesn't matter much, either way I'll come out at about the same rate.
- H has an edge cause I have a family and we're near there, but I figure since we're moving in 3 years regardless that will not be the deciding factor. (Though info on how New Haven is for folks with families is appreciated.)
- Post law school plans include clerkship, public interest work, and likely being a professor. Wouldn't rule out Big Law, but for a number of reasons it just isn't my primary focus.

Thanks for the advice.


Yale. Although I find it difficult that someone wants to be a professor and dedicate their life to legal scholarship when in all likelihood they have never read a serious piece of legal scholarship. But if that is something you think you might be interested in, then Yale would be a better choice. Yale has better clerkship placement and does better at placing graduates into teaching jobs than any other school by quite a bit.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:50 pm

You have young kids? Are you really going to move them across the country first for a clerkship, then possibly to a firm and/or VAP, then to whatever random school in whatever random city will hire you?

If you're dead-set on academia, Yale. But having kids in school in the Boston area is a situation where I would generally say Harvard by a significant margin (and I think Yale over Harvard is usually an easy choice, and I go to Yale). The difference between the schools is significant, but not nearly big enough to justify forcing your family to relocate unless you just have to be a professor.

New Haven is, however, fine for a family. There are lots of suburbs nearby, and most people with families live in East Rock, which is the one decent school district in the city.

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d330
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby d330 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:20 pm

ph14 wrote:
d330 wrote:It seems ridiculous to ask this question but TLS is good for giving out advice and often it's good advice. Also, I used this site to study for the LSAT, research schools, and all the other prep work, so it makes sense to go back to the well again. Here is the relevant info:

- Debt doesn't matter much, either way I'll come out at about the same rate.
- H has an edge cause I have a family and we're near there, but I figure since we're moving in 3 years regardless that will not be the deciding factor. (Though info on how New Haven is for folks with families is appreciated.)
- Post law school plans include clerkship, public interest work, and likely being a professor. Wouldn't rule out Big Law, but for a number of reasons it just isn't my primary focus.

Thanks for the advice.


Yale. Although I find it difficult that someone wants to be a professor and dedicate their life to legal scholarship when in all likelihood they have never read a serious piece of legal scholarship. But if that is something you think you might be interested in, then Yale would be a better choice. Yale has better clerkship placement and does better at placing graduates into teaching jobs than any other school by quite a bit.


I'm already a college professor and have read more legal scholarship than I care to comment on. Still teaching is a long term goal not a fresh out of school goal.

vzapana
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby vzapana » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:00 pm

once i saw the words "law professor," the answer was clear. yale, duh. new haven public schools aren't great, but choate, hopkins and a bunch of private schools nearby are fantastic, among the best in the country.

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SemperLegal
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby SemperLegal » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:16 pm

Yale is the right choice, I think. However, the one advantage of Boston is stability. There is a (very tiny) chance that you can go to Harvard, clerk for a Boston Court (D. Mass, 1st Cir., Immigration Court, Bankruptcy, State Supreme Court), work at a Boston firm*, and then (or concurrently) adjunct at one of the many Boston schools, gunning to get back to Harvard.

There is no chance of this happening in New Haven.

Kids appreciate stability, and your spouse will have a much easier time finding and developing a career in Boston than New Haven.


*reread your OP, same thing applies for PI and government jobs. They are must more frequent in bigger cities.

dissonance1848
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby dissonance1848 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:26 pm

Just wondering here; how bad is the Amtrack commute between New Haven and Boston?

Your family is definitely a consideration here, OP, but alas the career goals you have listed

can only realistically happen if you attend Yale.

Good luck on your decision, and congradulations!

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:00 am

dissonance1848 wrote: but alas the career goals you have listed

can only realistically happen if you attend Yale.



how is this at all true? since when did yale have a total monopoly over harvard (and stanford) on good clerkship/judicial/government & academic positions? the majority of supreme court justices, district judges, law professors, legislators w/ JD's, and ect the list goes on went to harvard. I have no idea how this statement is justified

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sinfiery
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby sinfiery » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:01 am

Since per capita became the most relevant statistic I believe

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:04 am

sinfiery wrote:Since per capita became the most relevant statistic I believe


sure. so "the chances are mildly improved by going to yale" is justified. thats a long way from saying "the only realistic way to make this happen is yale". i protest

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untar614
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby untar614 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:13 am

jbagelboy wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Since per capita became the most relevant statistic I believe


sure. so "the chances are mildly improved by going to yale" is justified. thats a long way from saying "the only realistic way to make this happen is yale". i protest

yale has around double the federal clerskship rate harvard does (34 vs 17 %)

TrustInMusic
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby TrustInMusic » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:14 am

Honestly, Harvard. The difference between Harvard and Yale is negligible compared to the benefits that living in Boston will give to your family.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:26 am

untar614 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Since per capita became the most relevant statistic I believe


sure. so "the chances are mildly improved by going to yale" is justified. thats a long way from saying "the only realistic way to make this happen is yale". i protest

yale has around double the federal clerskship rate harvard does (34 vs 17 %)


if someone had said their choices were between columbia and harvard and they wanted a clerkship, would the same logic not apply (harvard being roughly double CLS in fed clerkships)? if you look through choosing ls threads you would find the exact phrase "the only way for you to achieve your goals is to go to harvard" or "the only way for you to achieve your goals is to go to stanford" when responding to a post about prestige PI or clerkships. It's all relative when you make your only basis highly self-selective percentages. OP has a perfectly realistic chance of becoming a professor out of either institution

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d330
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby d330 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:17 am

dissonance1848 wrote:Just wondering here; how bad is the Amtrack commute between New Haven and Boston?

Your family is definitely a consideration here, OP, but alas the career goals you have listed

can only realistically happen if you attend Yale.

Good luck on your decision, and congradulations!


Amtrak is about 3 hours. While I could study on the train, what I would lose in being able to take the kids to school, cook dinner every once in a while, etc. makes the trip not worth it. Part of the question though, the unstated part - is what is the real difference that Yale's lack of grades (in a general sense) has on both the quality of life and on the relationship with one's peers.

Boston is great, in some ways, for family. But since it's not the final destination we're talking about maximizing the educational opportunities for three years. Then, too, I went to terrible schools. (Though I won't let my kids go that route.)

The differences, ultimately, are small. I'm told though that Yale has around 30% of the law professors. This could be just because people who want to teach often select Yale - who knows. Harvard has their share too, and i can't imagine a Harvard degree closing any door. So the real question revolves around insights folks have on quality of life and the small details that would make them choose one over the other. Thanks for the responses too. And like I said before, in a previous response, this is a considered decision. Already I have some things in my background (university teaching, publications, etc.) that make being a law professor a viable option if I excel and all that jazz.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby NoodleyOne » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:59 am

You can always get a new family.

Yale.

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h_jane_w
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby h_jane_w » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:38 am

Boston is way cooler than New Haven. There is no way you will ever regret going to Harvard Law School. and ultimately, your family should be the most important thing, because it's what's going to actually make you happy at the end of the day. not a clerkship or a job or money.

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby CaptainLeela » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:03 am

NoodleyOne wrote:You can always get a new family.

Yale.


I have nothing to contribute here, but this made me snicker out loud in a silent, open office.

TYFT

delusional
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby delusional » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:15 am

d330 wrote:
dissonance1848 wrote:Just wondering here; how bad is the Amtrack commute between New Haven and Boston?

Your family is definitely a consideration here, OP, but alas the career goals you have listed

can only realistically happen if you attend Yale.

Good luck on your decision, and congradulations!


Amtrak is about 3 hours. While I could study on the train, what I would lose in being able to take the kids to school, cook dinner every once in a while, etc. makes the trip not worth it. Part of the question though, the unstated part - is what is the real difference that Yale's lack of grades (in a general sense) has on both the quality of life and on the relationship with one's peers.

Boston is great, in some ways, for family. But since it's not the final destination we're talking about maximizing the educational opportunities for three years. Then, too, I went to terrible schools. (Though I won't let my kids go that route.)

The differences, ultimately, are small. I'm told though that Yale has around 30% of the law professors. This could be just because people who want to teach often select Yale - who knows. Harvard has their share too, and i can't imagine a Harvard degree closing any door. So the real question revolves around insights folks have on quality of life and the small details that would make them choose one over the other. Thanks for the responses too. And like I said before, in a previous response, this is a considered decision. Already I have some things in my background (university teaching, publications, etc.) that make being a law professor a viable option if I excel and all that jazz.
I have a family, and I moved to Harvard because I thought that after the initial move it would be easier for them. I was right. Take if from me - no grades means more, better time with family.

TheNextAmendment
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby TheNextAmendment » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:18 am

Elston Gunn wrote:You have young kids? Are you really going to move them across the country first for a clerkship, then possibly to a firm and/or VAP, then to whatever random school in whatever random city will hire you?

If you're dead-set on academia, Yale. But having kids in school in the Boston area is a situation where I would generally say Harvard by a significant margin (and I think Yale over Harvard is usually an easy choice, and I go to Yale). The difference between the schools is significant, but not nearly big enough to justify forcing your family to relocate unless you just have to be a professor.

New Haven is, however, fine for a family. There are lots of suburbs nearby, and most people with families live in East Rock, which is the one decent school district in the city.



I live 10 minutes away from New Haven...and I would highly disagree.

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nickb285
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby nickb285 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:50 am

CaptainLeela wrote:
NoodleyOne wrote:You can always get a new family.

Yale.


I have nothing to contribute here, but this made me snicker out loud in a silent, open office.

TYFT


+1. Seriously though, Yale is going to give you an advantage in what you're looking for, but Harvard isn't exactly TTT. You'll be fine either way, and you can go right to hell for winning the "who's got the most absurdly high-end school poll thread on this forum" contest.

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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby Ohiobumpkin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:02 am

I would think that OP's past as a college professor and a Harvard law degree would put him at the top of any given application pool for a professorship. I voted for Yale, but I now support Harvard as the best choice given all your background and family situation. Also, I would think being a URM with experience being a professor, and having a Harvard law degree, will make OP's chances of getting a law professorship better than most Yale graduates. Congratulations and best wishes to your legal career and family!

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby Elston Gunn » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:53 am

TheNextAmendment wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:You have young kids? Are you really going to move them across the country first for a clerkship, then possibly to a firm and/or VAP, then to whatever random school in whatever random city will hire you?

If you're dead-set on academia, Yale. But having kids in school in the Boston area is a situation where I would generally say Harvard by a significant margin (and I think Yale over Harvard is usually an easy choice, and I go to Yale). The difference between the schools is significant, but not nearly big enough to justify forcing your family to relocate unless you just have to be a professor.

New Haven is, however, fine for a family. There are lots of suburbs nearby, and most people with families live in East Rock, which is the one decent school district in the city.



I live 10 minutes away from New Haven...and I would highly disagree.


Well, fair enough. I'm sure OP could use some actual details of your experience...

The people I know with families seem fine with it, and places like Milford, etc. are hardly drug dens. Hooker is also a pretty decent public school. But again, I'm sure you'd know better, perhaps you could give the OP more helpful information.

howaboutthat
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby howaboutthat » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:31 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
TheNextAmendment wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:You have young kids? Are you really going to move them across the country first for a clerkship, then possibly to a firm and/or VAP, then to whatever random school in whatever random city will hire you?

If you're dead-set on academia, Yale. But having kids in school in the Boston area is a situation where I would generally say Harvard by a significant margin (and I think Yale over Harvard is usually an easy choice, and I go to Yale). The difference between the schools is significant, but not nearly big enough to justify forcing your family to relocate unless you just have to be a professor.

New Haven is, however, fine for a family. There are lots of suburbs nearby, and most people with families live in East Rock, which is the one decent school district in the city.



I live 10 minutes away from New Haven...and I would highly disagree.


Well, fair enough. I'm sure OP could use some actual details of your experience...

The people I know with families seem fine with it, and places like Milford, etc. are hardly drug dens. Hooker is also a pretty decent public school. But again, I'm sure you'd know better, perhaps you could give the OP more helpful information.



Connecticut has many of the finest private schools and public school districts in the country (world). Think about places like Woodbridge, Branford and others for your residence if you do not want private schools or New Haven public schools. Yale's laid-back nature presumably would allow you to live in a surrounding town quite easily. The Connecticut shoreline (and state, in general, like Massachusetts) is beautiful. Even absent your particular career aspirations, going to YLS rather than HLS given that you have family responsibilities seems like a no-brainer.

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pacifica
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Re: Yale or Harvard (Embarrassment of Riches Post)

Postby pacifica » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:22 pm

vzapana wrote:once i saw the words "law professor," the answer was clear. yale, duh. new haven public schools aren't great, but choate, hopkins and a bunch of private schools nearby are fantastic, among the best in the country.


+1, except send kids to Hotchkiss, that's where the real 1%ers go... lol




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