UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

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romanticegotist
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UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:06 am

So this is what it's come down to:

Texas: $84k in tuition for the 3 years (in-state + a little scholarship)

Minnesota: Full-ride

COL: looks like it will be covered by family, and there is a chance they will help a bit with tuition should I ask. My offer to them is I take out the max federal loan each year (20k) and they cover the rest (I'm assuming for this exercise that they are only covering COL though)

Context: My undergrad is from Minnesota, but I now live and work in Austin. My situation in Austin is pretty unique; I would say I have good ties here and I really don't want to leave the city (PM if you want more on this). I love Minneapolis but I have no legal ties there. It looks like the employment numbers out of Texas are better enough that taking on debt to attend vs. free at Minnesota is worth it in the long-term.

Goals: I am a little unsure of what I want to practice; probably non-litigation, non-public interest work. International Law is vague and broad but that's what I'd like to focus on (specifically European Union issues). Goal is essentially biglaw at either school, though graduating with low debt does leave open other options.

Misc:I was accepted at Cornell (but that would be more than twice the debt load and, again, no ties there at all) and have an offer from Vanderbilt that would be roughly equivalent to UT, but Austin > Nashville and the Texas legal market is big and seems pretty stable. I can move anywhere if the job is right, but ending up in either Minneapolis or Austin would be pretty ideal outcomes outside of hitting a home-run and getting a sweet job in London, New York, etc.

Any thoughts? Leaning strongly towards Texas as of now but I'm not too proud to ask more more input wherever I can find it. Stats in profile; I have no intention of waiting and retaking.

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patrickd139
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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:12 am

You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.

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romanticegotist
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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:16 am

patrickd139 wrote:You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.


Total cost is currently a little bit TBD because I am waiting to see on parent contribution. It's either 60k or 84k in loans + interest for Texas or 0 for Minnesota. I am assuming parents cover cost of living (they've essentially pledged at least that). I wish I could provide more info there.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:20 am

There really is only one proper course of action. Why are you trying to block us from that response?

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:43 am

romanticegotist wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.


Total cost is currently a little bit TBD because I am waiting to see on parent contribution. It's either 60k or 84k in loans + interest for Texas or 0 for Minnesota. I am assuming parents cover cost of living (they've essentially pledged at least that). I wish I could provide more info there.

Solidifies the gut reaction then: UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota.

Beyond that, I'd really encourage you to retake and get a higher LSAT score so UT throws some money at you. Especially considering your goals post law-school. Going to school in MN scares me because of the relatively small legal market and your relative lack of ties to the area, made worse by your obvious ties to Texas. That adds up to a presumption that you're going to be a flight risk. Not a good way to start your job search.

I'm going to ignore the international law bit. That's cute, but also incredibly naive and misguided. I can almost promise you this: you (statistically) will not be hitting a home run and getting a job in New York or (ha) London from either UT or Minnesota.

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WokeUpInACar
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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:50 am

patrickd139 wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.


Total cost is currently a little bit TBD because I am waiting to see on parent contribution. It's either 60k or 84k in loans + interest for Texas or 0 for Minnesota. I am assuming parents cover cost of living (they've essentially pledged at least that). I wish I could provide more info there.

Solidifies the gut reaction then: UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota.

Beyond that, I'd really encourage you to retake and get a higher LSAT score so UT throws some money at you. Especially considering your goals post law-school. Going to school in MN scares me because of the relatively small legal market and your relative lack of ties to the area, made worse by your obvious ties to Texas. That adds up to a presumption that you're going to be a flight risk. Not a good way to start your job search.

I'm going to ignore the international law bit. That's cute, but also incredibly naive and misguided. I can almost promise you this: you (statistically) will not be hitting a home run and getting a job in New York or (ha) London from either UT or Minnesota.

I mean, he pretty much acknowledged that it is unlikely. NYC is not *that* crazy tough to get from UT.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:51 am

BigZuck wrote:There really is only one proper course of action. Why are you trying to block us from that response?


Haha I take it you mean 'wait and retake.' I scored a little lower than I'd have liked but then I realized that 1) I hate the LSAT, have taken it twice, and don't want to again; 2) 166 is really pretty much on the high end of my range; 3) I don't know if my job is available for another full year; and 4) I am tired of doing the 'would-coulda' cycle of stressful thinking about it (if I got a 168 i'd just be pissed it wasn't a 170; if I got a 170 I'd just be pissed about it not being a 172. That's my nature). At some point you just have to make the leap and this is a good time to do so for me personally.

@patrickd139: I agree on the intl law thing; I'm not an idiot about it, but that's the direction I'm going to pursue if the opportunities arise (as opposed to pursuing public interest opportunities, etc). I would consider taking the June LSAT just to see if I can spike something higher.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:52 am

WokeUpInACar wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.


Total cost is currently a little bit TBD because I am waiting to see on parent contribution. It's either 60k or 84k in loans + interest for Texas or 0 for Minnesota. I am assuming parents cover cost of living (they've essentially pledged at least that). I wish I could provide more info there.

Solidifies the gut reaction then: UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota.

Beyond that, I'd really encourage you to retake and get a higher LSAT score so UT throws some money at you. Especially considering your goals post law-school. Going to school in MN scares me because of the relatively small legal market and your relative lack of ties to the area, made worse by your obvious ties to Texas. That adds up to a presumption that you're going to be a flight risk. Not a good way to start your job search.

I'm going to ignore the international law bit. That's cute, but also incredibly naive and misguided. I can almost promise you this: you (statistically) will not be hitting a home run and getting a job in New York or (ha) London from either UT or Minnesota.

I mean, he pretty much acknowledged that it is unlikely. NYC is not *that* crazy tough to get from UT.


I get the sense you need about top 20%, maybe top third. Do you get a sense that its easier to get NY big law than that?

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:54 am

WokeUpInACar wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You need to factor in total cost of attendance, including interest, etc. to start. Not just tuition. LST provides rough estimates to start.

Gut reaction though is UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota. Neither travels to the other's legal market.


Total cost is currently a little bit TBD because I am waiting to see on parent contribution. It's either 60k or 84k in loans + interest for Texas or 0 for Minnesota. I am assuming parents cover cost of living (they've essentially pledged at least that). I wish I could provide more info there.

Solidifies the gut reaction then: UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota.

Beyond that, I'd really encourage you to retake and get a higher LSAT score so UT throws some money at you. Especially considering your goals post law-school. Going to school in MN scares me because of the relatively small legal market and your relative lack of ties to the area, made worse by your obvious ties to Texas. That adds up to a presumption that you're going to be a flight risk. Not a good way to start your job search.

I'm going to ignore the international law bit. That's cute, but also incredibly naive and misguided. I can almost promise you this: you (statistically) will not be hitting a home run and getting a job in New York or (ha) London from either UT or Minnesota.

I mean, he pretty much acknowledged that it is unlikely. NYC is not *that* crazy tough to get from UT.

Meh, international law is what it is. Not going to devolve into that here.

Re NYC: Definitely possible to make it happen, but not from the median. And that's the only class rank OP should consider being available, as it's statistically where s/he is going to end up.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:55 am

BigZuck wrote:
WokeUpInACar wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:Solidifies the gut reaction then: UT if you want to practice in Texas, UMinnesota if you want to practice in in Minnesota.

Beyond that, I'd really encourage you to retake and get a higher LSAT score so UT throws some money at you. Especially considering your goals post law-school. Going to school in MN scares me because of the relatively small legal market and your relative lack of ties to the area, made worse by your obvious ties to Texas. That adds up to a presumption that you're going to be a flight risk. Not a good way to start your job search.

I'm going to ignore the international law bit. That's cute, but also incredibly naive and misguided. I can almost promise you this: you (statistically) will not be hitting a home run and getting a job in New York or (ha) London from either UT or Minnesota.

I mean, he pretty much acknowledged that it is unlikely. NYC is not *that* crazy tough to get from UT.


I get the sense you need about top 20%, maybe top third. Do you get a sense that its easier to get NY big law than that?

No that's right about what I was thinking. Top 1/4 or top 1/3 with very good interview skills. Obviously not likely, but very possible.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:00 pm

Wow these things get derailed quickly. Like I said, the intl stuff is a goal, a direction. I enjoy learning about systems and rules sets and how to work inside of them, so I'm not hyper concerned about job satisfaction if that's not what I get to do (though, yes, I know that day-to-day legal work is often thankless and tedious and that life is awful for everyone everywhere unless you get a big hiring bonus from your SCOTUS clerkship. I've been on TLS long enough to have at least learned that much).

Essentially, I think that the opportunities available to me in Texas plus the utility gained from not having to leave Austin for a little while are worth at least a portion of the debt that I'm taking on to attend, and that Minnesota isn't 'free' in the sense that job opportunities are considerably less promising than UT's in a vacuum, let alone in my real world. I don't think that's too crazy of a sentiment, and I wanted to have a discussion around that. For the moment, just pretend that retaking is not an option.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:02 pm

Absolutely retake June. No downside at all and nothing but upside. Three more points gets you 90K at Cornell and that is a much better option for you than these two (although I don't really see international law happening its more likely from there). Or you might score higher and get into a better school next cycle.

Choosing between these two, depends on if you want to end up in Minnesota or UT. Median at UT scares the crap out of me with debt approaching 100K but median at Minn with no debt doesn't sound like the end of the world as long as you don't mind living in a frozen tundra.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby WokeUpInACar » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:03 pm

I would never choose Minnesota over UT in this scenario. 2-3 points on the LSAT would be worth 40k+ at UT though.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:04 pm

WokeUpInACar wrote:I would never choose Minnesota over UT in this scenario. 2-3 points on the LSAT would be worth 40k+ at UT though.


*looks down at the ground sheepishly* really shouldn't have blown the 'you get one shot at scholarship negotiations with us' thing at UT...

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:06 pm

BigZuck wrote:Absolutely retake June. No downside at all and nothing but upside. Three more points gets you 90K at Cornell and that is a much better option for you than these two (although I don't really see international law happening its more likely from there). Or you might score higher and get into a better school next cycle.

Choosing between these two, depends on if you want to end up in Minnesota or UT. Median at UT scares the crap out of me with debt approaching 100K but median at Minn with no debt doesn't sound like the end of the world as long as you don't mind living in a frozen tundra.


Also, sub-question about that: would I have to put down a seat deposit at Cornell now, with the hopes of getting a better score? Or could I just ride in on a 170-colored stallion in the middle of July?

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:16 pm

romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Absolutely retake June. No downside at all and nothing but upside. Three more points gets you 90K at Cornell and that is a much better option for you than these two (although I don't really see international law happening its more likely from there). Or you might score higher and get into a better school next cycle.

Choosing between these two, depends on if you want to end up in Minnesota or UT. Median at UT scares the crap out of me with debt approaching 100K but median at Minn with no debt doesn't sound like the end of the world as long as you don't mind living in a frozen tundra.


Also, sub-question about that: would I have to put down a seat deposit at Cornell now, with the hopes of getting a better score? Or could I just ride in on a 170-colored stallion in the middle of July?


You would have to deposit. You would have to figure out all the logistics of that one I guess.

Maybe your best course of action is deposit UT, retake June and see what happens.

Believe me, if you hit 169+ you'll be more than happy to reapply next cycle.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:26 pm

BigZuck wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Absolutely retake June. No downside at all and nothing but upside. Three more points gets you 90K at Cornell and that is a much better option for you than these two (although I don't really see international law happening its more likely from there). Or you might score higher and get into a better school next cycle.

Choosing between these two, depends on if you want to end up in Minnesota or UT. Median at UT scares the crap out of me with debt approaching 100K but median at Minn with no debt doesn't sound like the end of the world as long as you don't mind living in a frozen tundra.


Also, sub-question about that: would I have to put down a seat deposit at Cornell now, with the hopes of getting a better score? Or could I just ride in on a 170-colored stallion in the middle of July?


You would have to deposit. You would have to figure out all the logistics of that one I guess.

Maybe your best course of action is deposit UT, retake June and see what happens.

Believe me, if you hit 169+ you'll be more than happy to reapply next cycle.


That sounds fair. My plan as of now is deposit at UT regardless (deposit at Minn is like $750 so it's not like I can really eat that too easily). I will think about retaking since there is no downside, even if I hate the LSAT so so much.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:31 pm

Why would you think about it and not just do it? I know a June retaker success story who says you should do it and not even think twice about it.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:33 pm

I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:41 pm

BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:43 pm

romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.

Slide on over to barnes and noble and pick up the Logic Games Bible.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby shifty_eyed » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:44 pm

romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.


Games are the most improvable. I was relatively bad at them too, but practicing a TON helps. Get the Logic Games Bible if you haven't already, and make 3 copies of EVERY logic game ever. Keep redoing the games you suck at until you can do them quickly. You might want to try Dave Hall's method to see if it works for you, since his relies (I believe) more on brute force than inferences like the LGB.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby BigZuck » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:47 pm

romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.


I took the test three times, worked full time throughout. Also pretty poor, just bought the Manhattan guides and bibles and did self study. Time suck but definitely doable.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby romanticegotist » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:50 pm

BigZuck wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.


I took the test three times, worked full time throughout. Also pretty poor, just bought the Manhattan guides and bibles and did self study. Time suck but definitely doable.


Thanks y'all for the advice. I will most likely do the June retake and hopefully put myself in a better position.

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Re: UT vs Minn (and a few outside options)

Postby patrickd139 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:52 pm

romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
romanticegotist wrote:
BigZuck wrote:I guess I'm just surprised that the concept of retaking is so daunting for so many people when there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. Preping is a time suck, sure, but I actually kind of fun. But even if I didn't I was happy to keep retaking because I knew how much a better score could alter the course of my life for the better. I would take it again if they didn't cap it at 3 times in 2 years.


You are right, of course. Guess I might as well buy a few practice tests and see what I can score. Big problem for me is that I work full-time and don't have the cash for a prep course (also I'm terrible at the games section...just terrible). If I can get my practice tests back up to the 168-170 range I was at before I'll give it another go.


I took the test three times, worked full time throughout. Also pretty poor, just bought the Manhattan guides and bibles and did self study. Time suck but definitely doable.


Thanks y'all for the advice. I will most likely do the June retake and hopefully put myself in a better position.

I think you'll really appreciate the wrench-time when you bump a few points and go to UT for an amount that doesn't result in $1500+ debt payments each month. GL and let us know how it works out!




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